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post #931 of 1635
1/10/08 at 10:39am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jari K
Firmware-updates are part of the HD-players and probably (in some ways at least) will be also in the future. I´m sure you know that Toshiba releases new firmware-updates also? It´s just part the business, since these players are almost like computers now in some degree.

I´m really happy that these new firmware updates are being released. Of course, not sure what the lazy average joe thinks about them.. I just read some comments that some people don´t want to buy "Pan's Labyrinth", since they "don´t want to read subtitles" ( ). So updating their players is probably just too much to ask.

Well, there´s always that good-old DVD-player. Snif.

The average Joe can't be too keen on plunking down $300-$600+ on a BD player that's basically still in BETA test mode, and people aren't going to put up with numerous firmware updates just to play the new releases on a normal basis, they will just go back to DVD.

Enthusiasts will put up with having to continually update the firmware (or actively seek out other brands that have less issues with requiring new updates whenever a new BD title is released), but the general public that isn't network savvy, doesn't care about burning CDs, or having to deal with calling tech support to have the CDs sent to them on a weekly/monthly basis, they won't stand for it for long. People simply want to buy their BDs, and pop it into the BD player, and have it play that evening without the persistent need for firmware updates/upgrades. Is that too much to ask? At this time, it appears so.
post #932 of 1635
1/10/08 at 10:46am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Chuck, I agree with you that that would be a good direction to go. But the technology isn't quite there yet to use it as a permanent prerecorded playback media. And they are still cost prohibitive just for a blank card.

The cheapest blank 8GB memory cards cost more than the MSRP of HD Media discs at 3.5-6.25x the capacity.
post #933 of 1635
1/10/08 at 11:06am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolesrule
Chuck, I agree with you that that would be a good direction to go. But the technology isn't quite there yet to use it as a permanent prerecorded playback media. And they are still cost prohibitive just for a blank card.

The cheapest blank 8GB memory cards cost more than the MSRP of HD Media discs at 3.5-6.25x the capacity.

I agree also. I suppose though that something like this *combined* w/ that other XStreamHD thing might work.

XstreamHD details continue to emerge - Engadget HD

If XStreamHD (or something similar) does take off in the near future, I guess they can always use that to transition to this form of HDM sooner rather than later. Of course, why the heck would Micro$oft (or whoever else) want that transition to happen once they lock the masses into downloads?

Anyway, the homevideo recording industry/market is already moving into this direction w/ HD camcorders being introduced that use memory cards. But no idea if that would have any actual impact on the prerecorded industry/market.

_Man_
post #934 of 1635
1/10/08 at 11:12am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Anstey
Here is an example of what I think would be truly revolutionary in home video.

Imagine a next generation player based upon the NVRAM in CF, SD, and other memory cards. Forget about current storage size limitations. It would offer:
1. No moving parts. A really big deal for reliablity.
2. A form factor that can take an insane amount of abuse. No more worries about scratches.
3. An expanding storage capacity. Unlike current DVD/Blu-ray discs that have a fixed storage size per layer, these cards are able to expand their storage capacity as fabrication sizes get smaller and the player can take advantage of it without change.
4. Variable form-factor. The only thing these cards need to be fixed is the connection at the front. The size and shape of the card outside of the connector can be anything. This allows multiple storage capacities and studios could choose whichever met their needs for each specific movie, with smaller likley being cheaper.
5. Likely to be easily portable but the amount of CPU horsepower needed for HDM may negate the smaller form factor.

Now a new format which met the above capabilities would also be future-proof for a much longer period.

Chuck, in one of the other threads I mentioned that as my hope for the future as well. Perhaps someone will finally get the idea. Imagine sliding one of those bad boys directly into the front of an HDMI AVR. Manufacturing costs and storage size are just accounting and engineering problems that probably could be easily solved.
post #935 of 1635
1/10/08 at 11:54am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that as soundtracks are released in 7.1 people with 5.1 input equipment are hosed?
From my understanding, not with Lossless Dolby TrueHD, as 7.1 doesn't need to be downmixed:

Re: Dolby TrueHD:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanjay Durani on another forum:
The first extension packet contains the data that, when combined with the core packet, gives you the entire soundtrack as a lossless 5.1-channel mix....at every point you are always getting all the information in the soundtrack, even when you don't have the original number of discrete channels.
Don't know about the Lossless DTS-HD MA 7.1 codec.

As for the movies themselves:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart Robinson on another forum:
The trend for motion picture soundtracks is set by what happens in theatres and there, the overwhelming majority of releases are, and will continue to be 3/2.1. ......... There is a precedent as to how [greater than] 6 channels would be received in the modern cinema, that set by SDDS, which as you know can use eight channels, five across the front, two in the rear and a sub. Yet although the channel assignments have sound acoustic principals, since its introduction in 1994 there have been just 101 SDDS-8 releases and only three this year [2007] so far. Consider the tens of thousands of 5.1 releases during that same period.

One has to wonder if it's the beginning of a trend to re-author HD discs to 7.1.
It's nice that so far, the majority of HD discs have been released in 5.1.

Paul

Edit: Descrete 7.1 PCM tracks would not be compatible with older equipment (older processors would have to drop the rear-left and rear-right channels). Processors with "Prologic IIx" and/or "Logic 7" could synthetically re-create the back channels.
post #936 of 1635
1/10/08 at 12:10pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hillenbrand
From my understanding, not with Lossless Dolby TrueHD, as 7.1 doesn't need to be downmixed:

Correct, Dolby actually includes the 2 channels needed for 5.1 (so in essence it is 9.1:

1 center
2 left front
3 right front
4 surround left (used only in 5.1)
5 surround left (used only in 7.1)
6 surround right (used only in 5.1)
7 surround right (used only in 7.1)
8 rear left (used only in 7.1)
9 rear right (used only in 7.1)


Don't know about DTS HD MA either though..
post #937 of 1635
1/10/08 at 12:52pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Anstey

Here is an example of what I think would be truly revolutionary in home video.

Imagine a next generation player based upon the NVRAM in CF, SD, and other memory cards. Forget about current storage size limitations. It would offer:
1. No moving parts. A really big deal for reliablity.
2. A form factor that can take an insane amount of abuse. No more worries about scratches.
3. An expanding storage capacity. Unlike current DVD/Blu-ray discs that have a fixed storage size per layer, these cards are able to expand their storage capacity as fabrication sizes get smaller and the player can take advantage of it without change.
4. Variable form-factor. The only thing these cards need to be fixed is the connection at the front. The size and shape of the card outside of the connector can be anything. This allows multiple storage capacities and studios could choose whichever met their needs for each specific movie, with smaller likley being cheaper.
5. Likely to be easily portable but the amount of CPU horsepower needed for HDM may negate the smaller form factor.

Now a new format which met the above capabilities would also be future-proof for a much longer period.

Quote:
Less than a 2x improvement in density is not next generation. That is reserved for things that get on a order of magnitude (10x) improvment or at least several times the current system. If BD had 50 Gig per layer and all players had the ability to read 4+ layers out of the box then you could say it was next generation.

Revolutionary requires a device to have something new and different. Blu-ray has nothing new or different from HD-DVD. They have the same codecs, same lossy 4:2:2 video signal, and the same output connections. To call HD-DVD evolutionary requires you call Blu-ray evolutionary. My 500 Gig harddrive is not revolutionary compared to my 50 Gig harddrive just because it is faster and stores 10x as much. Just because a device uses different and much more expensive hardware to gain less than a 2x increase in storage does not make it revolutionary. Objectively such a shift to new technology for such a minor gain is normally considered a bad thing. Why go through the hassle and expense to develop a new technology for so little gain.

DVD was revolutionary over VHS tape because of the litany of capabilities, non-degrading digital signal, and form factor. At this time, HDM is simply a logical expansion of DVD because it mostly has more; more resolution, more color, more audio fidelity, and more codecs, not different.

two great posts Chuck. I agree 100%. Bd is not any more revolutionary than HD DVD already was, despite what the Bill Hunts of the world have been selling people. And this is why- although the Bd obssessed will roll their eyes and snort with derision- I think Toshiba could end up the ultimate winner out of all this. Sony is going to spend itself into a huge hole chasing the 'next standard' and all they will get is an adjunct niche.
Meanwhile other compaines (Toshiba perhaps?) will still have the resources to R&D, and the capital left to aggressively pursue a radical new delivery standard.

I think Blu-ray (or less likely, HD DVD) will be the last optical disc delivery method- I don't think VOD/downloads/etc will supplant a new form of hardware just the way the VHS rental business didn't infringe on the ownership of DVDs.
post #938 of 1635
1/10/08 at 1:20pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
I thought they meant next gen from DVD, not HD DVD. Yeah, it'd still be borderline next gen by your definition, but ~5.5x seems close enough (ie. "or at least several times the current system"), no?

I do agree that BD is not as revolutionary as DVD was -- well, for the mainstream market anyway since one could argue DVD was not *quite* that revolutionary over LD (or VCD in some other markets) either.

_Man_

Thanks, that was my point.

Any time a distribution form changes drastically, it would be more of a revolution of course. Tape->Disc (tape/vinyl->cd or vhs->dvd) or Disc->Solid State/Download are bigger than dvd->blu-ray
post #939 of 1635
1/10/08 at 1:23pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
I think Blu-ray (or less likely, HD DVD) will be the last optical disc delivery method- I don't think VOD/downloads/etc will supplant a new form of hardware just the way the VHS rental business didn't infringe on the ownership of DVDs.
I hope we can find an alternative long term storage solution to optical disc as this has much bigger implications than just HT. I was having a discussion the other day where I mentioned that we now have the ability to generate untold amounts of data through digital pictures and digital video to the point where we have far exceeded normal storage devices and have no good backup system.

Back in the old days, harddrives were backed up to tape which had a much larger storage size and could be done in a few hours. Today the only way to backup a harddrive is with another harddrive. Optical discs are far too small for backups. Plus the HDs are so big it takes a really long time to backup 750Gig of data.
post #940 of 1635
1/10/08 at 1:37pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Except for Patrick referring to "bitstream" instead of PCM in the message you "corrected" he is absolutely correct in his statement that the only way one gets HD audio codecs from the PS3 is via HDMI. He didn't say anything about HDMI 1.3a, etc. which is overkill for use with the original PS3 at this moment because any HDMI-equipped AVR does the job.

I thought Patrick stated that you needed a new 1.3 receiver that *could decode advanceded audio codecs* to get them off the PS3. I was correcting that by saying that *any* HDMI recevier would work... which includes the many non-1.3 receivers that have been on the market for some time and that can accept PCM over HDMI already.

If your point is that the PS3 doesn't have 5.1 or 7.1 analog out for lossless audio, that's certainly true.

Quote:
I'm glad to see that you now own an HDMI 1.3a capable AVR and a PS3 for Blu-ray so that you can "get by" with today's HD Audio codecs. At least you are talking from experience in this case, unlike many other times that we've had discussions where it turns out that you don't have any personal experience with certain equipment. That's definitely a step in the right direction. And for the record I side with you in a preference for my players to do the decoding of HD audio rather than the receiver (although I'm now equipped for all options with my new Denon 3808ci, HDMI 1.3a fully capable pre/pro). Ironically, the only place that the PS3 has failed me up until this point (in all other Blu-ray aspects it's top shelf) is in the way it handles - or should I say doesn't handle DTS MA audio. Not only doesn't it decode it at this point, but without a way of passing bitstream information to the 3808ci I'm totally out of the loop with the increasing number of titles available with DTS MA. Hairspray was just the tip of the iceberg. Yes, I know that Sony has stated that a "future" firmware upgrade will address DTS MA on the PS3, but unless there are some licensing issues involved, I really don't understand why this hasn't been done because I'm fairly confident that the PS3 can handle it as well as a 2.0 profile, right? Even my Panasonic BD player can pass the DTS MA coded audio to a receiver - but it's not located in the room where my 3808 resides.

It's been explained (repeatedly in the PS3 threads) that the actual HDMI 1.3 *chip* in the PS3 isn't capable of outputting the raw advanced audio bitreams, much to the dismay of you, me and other PS3 users. Apparently, there are two "versions" of the HDMI 1.3 chip and the PS3 got stuck with an early-version of the chipset that lacked the feature.

both 2.0 BD live and full DTS-HD MA decoding are coming within the first quarter of 08.

Quote:
And DaViD, while I have your attention here, I've been meaning to ask you something (not entirely) unrelated to the current discussion. You proudly display "Supporter of 1080p24 video and lossless 24 bit audio" in your signature. I assume this means that you are currently enjoying this form of video and audio in your home or some other personal location? I'm curious as to which equipment you are currently using. My JVC DLA-RS1 can display 1080p/24 and most of my equipment (except for DTS MA from Blu-ray on my PS3) can handle the highest quality audio codecs. What equipment are you experiencing 1080p24 and lossless 24 bit audio on? I have to admit that I have a big problem with people who comment on things based on what they've read or have been told about rather than on the one thing that I respect the most - their eyes and ears. I'm glad that you aren't one of those people, right? I have to assume that everything you say here is based on experience and is presented in a way that respects differing points of view. That's something that doesn't always happen on certain other web sites with self-proclaimed "insiders" who think that they are something special because they sometimes make lucky guesses. Their names need not be repeated here.

The quick answer is my own gear is up-to-speed on the audio side but still playing catch-up on the video side (I basiclly barrow the 1080p PJs of two friends by using their systems for BD reviews... saving up for my own RS1!!!).

However... let me throw out a perspective on folks who want software that's *encoded* better than their own system can *decode*:

Do you have to have a 1080 display to know that 1080 is better than 480?

Did one need to have a 16x9 TV in 1997 to know that 33% more resolution with anamorphic encoding would have looked better on a 16x9 screen than 4x3 lbx?

Or did I need to have a progressive-scan dispay to know that proper 3-2 pulldown reversal and native component video would look better than NTSC composite?

Why does one have to own the gear to fully render their software before they can assert that there are benefits of software encoded with increased resolution and transparency beyond what their own system is capable of delivering?

Unlike some (apparently you ), my finances limit what I can afford and when I can afford it. I currently have one friend in town with the JVC HD2K 1080p projector which does 1080p60, and another neighbor next door with a new Epson machine that does native 1080p24. I view HD images on their systems regularly when I write Blu-ray Disc reviews so I can see how HD images appear in full resolution since my own projector is only 720p60. I'm saving for a JVC RS1 myself (the first digital projector I've seen that didn't remind me I was watching a digital projector... what an incredible machine... sigh...). But as I save the money for my own system improvements, what's important to me is that the software format we collect, which we'll have for the next 10 years (or longer on our shelves) be native 1080p24 so that it can take advantage of our display systems as they evolve.

Because of the derth of "audiophile" 1.3 HDMI gear I waited until Marantz released their 8002 receiver as I didn't want to take a step-back in sound quality overall from what I was getting with my B&K (the Marantz sounds much better than my B&K gear I'm delighted to confirm). I'm pleased to say that 24-bit lossless (in extracted PCM from the PS3) over HDMI to the Marantz is a revelation. In particular, I was astonished to hear the effect of the 96 kHz sampling on the 24/96 TrueHD track on the David Matthew's band BD. Astonishing. It was like the speakers *completely vanished*. I've never had that sense of the system being so invisible before. I'm hopeful that more music-BD discs will embrace not only 24-bit resolution, but 96 kHz sampling for their PCM and TrueHD (or DTS-HD MA) soundtracks.

Quote:
I have a big problem with people who comment on things based on what they've read or have been told about rather than on the one thing that I respect the most - their eyes and ears

Well, thank god that some people didn't have a problem back when folks like me and Healthnut set up a "high definition petition" for Toshiba and Sony asking for native 1080p24 encoding and lossless 7.1 24-bit audio even before consumer display and audio devices existed to provide this level of fidelity. WSR actually printed that petition, and it was one of the driving forces behind both formats incorporating 1080p24 and lossless 24-bit multi-channel audio specs.

Now that you're enjoying it, you've got those people who you've got a "big problem with" to thank for it.



And hopefully my part-time evening job will get that JVC RS1 in my system soon, so I can stop going to my friends' houses to screen discs to write my reviews.
post #941 of 1635
1/10/08 at 1:46pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

The thread has seriously drifted off topic.

Maybe all this tech talk belongs in a different thread?
post #942 of 1635
1/10/08 at 1:50pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

You're right.

"What's going to happen with Paramount and Universal!?!"

There... back on topic...
post #943 of 1635
1/10/08 at 2:25pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

HD DVD group/Universal states that (for now at least) Universal isn't abandoning HD DVD:

Universal: We're staying with HD DVD

Quote:
5:00 pm ET January 10, 2008 -- Universal Studios has officially dispelled the rumors from Variety that it will drop HD DVD and switch to Blu-ray.
"Contrary to unsubstantiated rumors from unnamed sources, Universal's current plan is to continue to support the HD DVD format," said Ken Graffeo, executive vice president of HD strategic marketing for Universal Studios Home Entertainment and also co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group.
The response would have come sooner, but many HD DVD executives were on flights home from CES when the story from Variety broke.

Notice that this doesn't make any comment about whether or not Universal will *also* support Blu-ray Disc.

It's possible that Uni could go purple and the above would still be true. And of course anything could change in next few months, weeks, or even days.
post #944 of 1635
1/10/08 at 2:41pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
HD DVD group/Universal states that (for now at least) Universal isn't abandoning HD DVD:

...

Notice that this doesn't make any comment about whether or not Universal will *also* support Blu-ray Disc.

It's possible that Uni could go purple and the above would still be true. And of course anything could change in next few months, weeks, or even days.

1. "currently" (corporate speak for "maybe not tomorrow though...")

2. "Continue to support" (lack of word "exclusive" is corporate speak for "but we'll probably go neutral soon"

Wow, If that is all Toshiba managed to get Universal to say after all this time, that is really pathetic...

Paramount used the exact same wording as well... I'd actually say that Warner's statement in December was more convincing than this, and we all know how that turned out...
post #945 of 1635
1/10/08 at 3:09pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

HD DVD firmware updates have settled down. The last few have been more feature adds then problem fixes. When there were blockbusters being released with new types of interactivity there were a lot of firmware updates. I think BD will go through this same cycle. There will be an increase of FW updates in the short term as more titles are coming out with more complex features, but it will eventually settle down. It will be interesting to see if certain brands require more FW updates than others.

I heard a rumor that there was supposed to be a new HD DVD feature demo'd at CES (that would probably have required a FW update), but with the press conference cancelled I'm not sure when we will get the details.

I also did some following up on why the Press Event was cancelled. In addition to the obvious, I heard there was a lot of WB stuff in the presentation and it was too late to try to remove it all and still have a professional looking event.
post #946 of 1635
1/10/08 at 3:17pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Variety didn't say anything about Universal dropping HD-DVD support, they reported that Universal's contract with HD-DVD is up (which I gather is true), so in theory they could stop supporting it but I don't recall that being explicitly mentioned. I'm surprised Universal responded like this.
post #947 of 1635
1/10/08 at 4:39pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Ok this may be a stupid question? What is the ICT flag?

Quote:
My HD-A2 was delivered in August with a February build date. But it came from Amazon so there would be no "store" with techs to install current firmware. The annoying thing was that Toshiba included a return postcard for a CD with the latest firmware. I mailed it back immediately - five months later, no disc. So even the existing support for firmware updates needs some work. I had to spend about an hour fussing with downloading and burning to update it myself.

I am sorry you had such bad luck getting an update disc. When I contact Toshiba I think I got my firmware disc in about 5 days. I did not have any problems getting the firmware update. After that I downloaded the update directly from Toshiba and burned it to a DVD and that worked out great as well. I have also did the download thing with the firmware update for my Sony BDP-S300 as well. IMHO Toshiba has done a good job on firmware updates.

Quote:

Bd is not any more revolutionary than HD DVD already was, despite what the Bill Hunts of the world have been selling people. And this is why- although the Bd obsessed will roll their eyes and snort with derision- I think Toshiba could end up the ultimate winner out of all this. Sony is going to spend itself into a huge hole chasing the 'next standard' and all they will get is an adjunct niche.

Not sure why you think Blu-ray is not anymore revolutionary than HD-DVD. Blu-ray is a fresh design top to bottom that does not share the limitations of HD-DVD. Blu-ray has a theoretical storage limit of 200 Gigs(TDK has a hybrid 100 gig disc they have been working on), and HD-DVD has a theoretical max of 45 - 50 Gigs. To my knowledge even though certain codex are not manditory in the Blu-ray specifications. Every Blu-ray title can have a lossless track, as long as the studio feels like offering it. Not every HD-DVD can have a lossless track because of the format limitations. Originally HD-DVD was going to use a red laser just like DVD and Blu-ray was the only one with the blue laser. But Toshiba changed there mind and changed the design to use a blue laser. So I would aruge that Blu-ray is revolutionary especially compaired to SD-DVD.

I can not say that Sony has not paid any studios but Toshiba is definantly spending itself into a hole! If HD-DVD was so superior why in the world would Toshiba need to pay Universal $150 million to be HD-DVD exclusive? Toshiba has very little support now and there is very little chance HD-DVD will win with only 2 studios supporting it. IMHO the industry wants this war to end as they feel it would be better for the future of HDM and the consumer. Don't get me wrong my HD player was my Toshiba HD-A1 and I love the HD-DVD format. I just feel Blu-ray has more going for it and will remain more viable in the future. And while I welcome Blu-ray being the winner of the format war, there is no way I will be getting rid of my HD-DVD titles anytime soon.

Quote:
Why does one have to own the gear to fully render their software before they can assert that there are benefits of software encoded with increased resolution and transparency beyond what their own system is capable of delivering?
Unlike some (apparently you [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Falcon/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image002.gif[/IMG]), my finances limit what I can afford and when I can afford it. I currently have one friend in town with the JVC HD2K 1080p projector which does 1080p60, and another neighbor next door with a new Epson machine that does native 1080p24. I view HD images on their systems regularly when I write Blu-ray Disc reviews so I can see how HD images appear in full resolution since my own projector is only 720p60. I'm saving for a JVC RS1 myself (the first digital projector I've seen that didn't remind me I was watching a digital projector... what an incredible machine... sigh...). But as I save the money for my own system improvements, what's important to me is that the software format we collect, which we'll have for the next 10 years (or longer on our shelves) be native 1080p24 so that it can take advantage of our display systems as they evolve.


I am in the same boat, I have to save and do not allways have the newest and best ether. I am working on upgrading my receiver this year and then my Blu-ray player. I will then upgrade my Sony 720p rp hdtv, which I have nad no trouble seeing a difference between 480p DVD and 1080p encoded HDM. While you do not have to have 1080p to enjoy HDM it sure doesn't hurt. I might be buying a new Mitsubishi laser HDTV in 09 once I am ready to buy a new 1080p HDTV.
Quote:
Wow, If that is all Toshiba managed to get Universal to say after all this time, that is really pathetic...

Paramount used the exact same wording as well... I'd actually say that Warner's statement in December was more convincing than this, and we all know how that turned out...

I agree that is about the most pathetic statement Universal could have made. One thing is for certain is that the only way I will be spending any money on a Universal HD titles is if I just have to have it! How much longer is Universal going to be willing to help Toshiba in prolonging the HDM war? I do not exspect them to go Blu-ray only but they should at least go neutral. There are alot of Universal titles I would love to buy but I will not support Universal prolonging a war that needs to end. If HD-DVD had the majority support at this stage of the format war I would through my support behind HD-DVD. Even with Blu-ray having the edge in the specification department. When I heard the news about WB I was really hoping that Universal would not be far behind, I must admit I was jazzed! The only reason I can see why Universal not going Blu soon is that besides Toshiba crying like a baby and begging them not to desert them. They most likely offered to continue sending them big checks to stay HD-DVD exclusive. It is only a matter of time before Toshiba's share holders decide to kill the bottomless pit that HD-DVD has become. And GE decides to truly pressure Universal to go neutral and to not help Toshiba prolong the war. I am sure that Paramount will really start to feel the pressure soon as well. IMHO it is going to take a miracle to save HD-DVD from its fate that is quickly approaching, its loosing blood fast and could be DOA soon. The only thing that will keep HD-DVD afloat is Toshiba pouring money into it and the remaining two studio’s not going neutral in the format war. Universal and Paramount is all Toshiba has keeping HD-DVD afloat. Without one of these formats HD-DVD will truly be dead, as in dead and not coming back dead! It’s a shame that a single HD format could not be agreed on before this all started.

post #948 of 1635
1/10/08 at 4:41pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Universal: We're staying with HD DVD

and

Universal Re-Affirms HD DVD Support | High-Def Digest

Gee... Sure seems like Ron knew more about what was going to be happening than some of the folks in this thread!

Mark

P.S. I have this funny feeling there is still a SURPRISE coming!
post #949 of 1635
1/10/08 at 5:01pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

I don't know if anyone has noticed but I just saw a story up on the front page about Paramount licensing some content for d/l over a new service. I wonder if this is playing in to any of this at all?!
post #950 of 1635
1/10/08 at 5:09pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

While I love my HD-DVD collection and have been very happy with the titles I have purchased so far. I am tired of the format war and it is now time for the two remaining studios to join the other studios and help bring this war to an end. I personally will make it a point to inform anyone making a purchase of a HD-DVD player about the current state of the format. If Toshiba will not bring this war to an end I feel I must do my part to help it end. Consumers buying HD-DVD players for the first time should be made aware that not only is Universal and Paramount the only two remaining studios left. But soon they will not be able to purchase titles from WB as they are going Blu-ray only. I the customer really wants to back HD-DVD thats great, but they should have the information before handing there hard earned money over to Toshiba. At least if they go through with there purchase they will know where they stand when they walk out the door with there new HD-DVD player. And like I said before if the shoe was on the other foot and HD-DVD was the better format and they had the lead. I would be doing the same thing for HD-DVD and Blu-ray would not be getting the majority of my HD $$.

Even if Universal does not go Blu in the next month. If they are producing Blu-ray test discs then they are considering doing something soon! When it comes it could end up being another suprise to Toshiba like WB was. It could be that the studios wanted to support Toshiba but they did not want to kill there format ether. But what it really boils down to is cold hard cash, thats what business is all about!
post #951 of 1635
1/10/08 at 5:15pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

I think the retailers response to the WB switch is going to be a far more determining factor of when and if Universal and Paramount make any move. Will Uni & Paramount stick with HD DVD if they stores aren't putting their stuff on the shelf?

Way too soon to know either way
post #952 of 1635
1/10/08 at 5:47pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Well, Universal and Paramount are sticking with HD DVD because the Warners announcement just freed up a lot of HD DVD production capacity. Let's hope they use the extra capacity to put out some desired classics and current new releases.

Look on the bright side, perhaps the HD/BD BOGOs will continue for another 6-12 months.
post #953 of 1635
1/10/08 at 6:47pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
I thought Patrick stated that you needed a new 1.3 receiver that *could decode advanceded audio codecs* to get them off the PS3. I was correcting that by saying that *any* HDMI recevier would work... which includes the many non-1.3 receivers that have been on the market for some time and that can accept PCM over HDMI already.

Read Patrick's message again. Nowhere does he mention "1.3a" but simply "HDMI" receivers. You "corrected" something that he didn't say by stating something that he did say. The bottom line is that you are now taking credit for something that someone else said. That was my point.

Quote:
If your point is that the PS3 doesn't have 5.1 or 7.1 analog out for lossless audio, that's certainly true.
Not my point, DaViD, but Patrick's (although I agree with the statement.)

Quote:
It's been explained (repeatedly in the PS3 threads) that the actual HDMI 1.3 *chip* in the PS3 isn't capable of outputting the raw advanced audio bitreams, much to the dismay of you, me and other PS3 users. Apparently, there are two "versions" of the HDMI 1.3 chip and the PS3 got stuck with an early-version of the chipset that lacked the feature.

I have no problem with that statement but as I stated in my earlier post that's not an issue for those of us who have HDMI AVRs and one of the reasons that I prefer my players to do the decoding. Bitstreaming need not apply. LPCM via HDMI is fine for all current HD audio and there is no difference in the final sound.

Quote:
both 2.0 BD live and full DTS-HD MA decoding are coming within the first quarter of 08.
I fully realize that the PS3 has the capabilities for all of that and I assume that the 2.0 BD live upgrade is easily implemented because there is already a working Ethernet port on board. The full DTS-HD MA decoding is another matter entirely. This might not be a hardware issue but a licensing issue so while I hope your prediction is right I wouldn't be surprised if it takes a little longer. Actually, the lack of full DTS-HD MA decoding on the PS3 first hit home with me on the title "Hairspray" where the only sound option is 7.1 DTS HD MA. Yes, the PS3 defaults to the 5.1 DTS core, but this is the first time that the PS3 failed me and research showed me that Sony's been promising this for quite some time. With an increasing number of Blu-ray titles only offering a DTS-HD MA audio option, the PS3 leaves us a bit short at the moment in this one area.

Quote:
The quick answer is my own gear is up-to-speed on the audio side but still playing catch-up on the video side (I basiclly barrow the 1080p PJs of two friends by using their systems for BD reviews... saving up for my own RS1!!!).

However... let me throw out a perspective on folks who want software that's *encoded* better than their own system can *decode*:

Do you have to have a 1080 display to know that 1080 is better than 480?

Did one need to have a 16x9 TV in 1997 to know that 33% more resolution with anamorphic encoding would have looked better on a 16x9 screen than 4x3 lbx?

Or did I need to have a progressive-scan dispay to know that proper 3-2 pulldown reversal and native component video would look better than NTSC composite?

Why does one have to own the gear to fully render their software before they can assert that there are benefits of software encoded with increased resolution and transparency beyond what their own system is capable of delivering?

Unlike some (apparently you ), my finances limit what I can afford and when I can afford it. I currently have one friend in town with the JVC HD2K 1080p projector which does 1080p60, and another neighbor next door with a new Epson machine that does native 1080p24. I view HD images on their systems regularly when I write Blu-ray Disc reviews so I can see how HD images appear in full resolution since my own projector is only 720p60. I'm saving for a JVC RS1 myself (the first digital projector I've seen that didn't remind me I was watching a digital projector... what an incredible machine... sigh...). But as I save the money for my own system improvements, what's important to me is that the software format we collect, which we'll have for the next 10 years (or longer on our shelves) be native 1080p24 so that it can take advantage of our display systems as they evolve.

Because of the derth of "audiophile" 1.3 HDMI gear I waited until Marantz released their 8002 receiver as I didn't want to take a step-back in sound quality overall from what I was getting with my B&K (the Marantz sounds much better than my B&K gear I'm delighted to confirm). I'm pleased to say that 24-bit lossless (in extracted PCM from the PS3) over HDMI to the Marantz is a revelation. In particular, I was astonished to hear the effect of the 96 kHz sampling on the 24/96 TrueHD track on the David Matthew's band BD. Astonishing. It was like the speakers *completely vanished*. I've never had that sense of the system being so invisible before. I'm hopeful that more music-BD discs will embrace not only 24-bit resolution, but 96 kHz sampling for their PCM and TrueHD (or DTS-HD MA) soundtracks.

DaVid, I have no problem with people recognizing that a higher resolution format, be it video or audio, is empirically going to produce a better picture and sound. Of course 1080p (presented correctly) is going to outshine 480p, etc. And I also understand that you've probably spent enough time at your friends' houses to understand the differences between high rez and low rez presentations. My statements in the portion of my response that you quoted were two-fold. On the one hand I was curious whether you had yet made the leap from 720p to 1080p because I know that you are such a supporter of 1080p/24 and lossless audio, etc. On the other hand this led me into a brief discussion of those folks who constantly talk about a topic without personally experiencing it. I can't help but remember the time I had a rather heated discussion with an individual who swore up and down that there was no difference between the audio available on HD media and SD media. He was so insistent that I wondered what wasn't being said. Finally, I found out that he was listening to both SD and HD discs through the speakers in his display!! Of course he wouldn't hear a difference. However, the tone of his posts seemed to suggest that he was listening with the latest equipment and I'm sure that a lot of people took his word as gospel because they thought they were listening (no pun intended) to an expert. I guess you thought that I was talking about you because both parts of the discussion were in the same paragraph, but I wasn't. If I meant you I would have called you on it by name. Sorry for any confusion on that. That said, I would take exception with you implying that I have an endless supply of cash. Whether I do or I don't isn't really anyone's business and has nothing to do with the situation. But I still am of the opinion that when one feels so strongly about something that they include it in their signature they at least should own the equipment they are espousing or at least tone it down until they do. To me this lends credibility to one's position. That's why I usually reach a point in any lengthy discussion when I ask, "Do you actually own the piece of equipment that you are claiming to be so knowledgeable about?" You'd be surprised how often the answer is, "No." And let me also state that owning something rather than having limited access at a friend's house does make a person who speaks so freely about a subject much more credible. You really don't get to know everything about something until you live with it. Heck, I just realized that I could be talking about a woman here! To me, a worhty analogy.

Quote:
Well, thank god that some people didn't have a problem back when folks like me and Healthnut set up a "high definition petition" for Toshiba and Sony asking for native 1080p24 encoding and lossless 7.1 24-bit audio even before consumer display and audio devices existed to provide this level of fidelity. WSR actually printed that petition, and it was one of the driving forces behind both formats incorporating 1080p24 and lossless 24-bit multi-channel audio specs.

Now that you're enjoying it, you've got those people who you've got a "big problem with" to thank for it.

Are you actually saying that without your petition that we wouldn't have 1080p/24 or lossless 24 bit audio today?!? The fact that WSR printed your petition doesn't mean a thing to me. There's a lot of stuff (well a lot less than there used to be) in WSR that doesn't necessarily mean that it's gospel, in my opinion. The next time you and Al Gore sit down to compare notes about sight, sound and The Internet let me know.

Seriously, while I commend you for the petition I can't buy the idea that you were a "driving force" behind 1080p/24 and lossless 24 bit audio. I probably am in contact with a lot more people at higher levels in the AV industry than you are and I'm not so naive as to think that my actions and words have formed policy. If you really understood how these things worked you'd see my point.

Finally, as another reader commented, this topic is beginning to get a bit technical. However, I have to respectfully disagree that it is going "off-topic" at all. It's all about Warners, HD-DVD and Blu-ray and since Warner Brothers was a dual format company before now which often chose, for some reason, to place higher bit rate HD audio codecs on the HD-DVD and not the Blu-ray version of the same title it is totally appropriate to talk about sight and sound here. But I do understand that there are those who choose not to get so deeply involved in the technical side of things so I'll tone it down a bit. I'd also remind people that you don't have to read every posting in a thread if a particular aspect doesn't appeal to you.

My two cents.
post #954 of 1635
1/10/08 at 6:57pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

I would encourage everyone here that would like to see this format war end sooner rather than later. Contact Viacom and Universal online and let them know that you would like to see Universal and Paramount support Blu-ray. I just got done writting them both a nice email and if enough people write it might just have a small impact. Enough to help these last two hold out studios bring a end to this format war.

I am looking forward to more classic WB films on the Blu-ray format as well as newer titles. I would hope to hear about titles like Lethal Weapon 3 & 4, The Matrix trilogy, Heat and other great WB titles coming out on Blu-ray as soon as possible.

And I would like to ask WB to please stop using low bit rate audio transfers. Give us high bit rate lossless audio on your future Blu-ray releases.
post #955 of 1635
1/10/08 at 7:33pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

It would certainly be nice if certain members here could PLEASE give the repetitive gloating a rest.

We get it already.

It would seem that Ron's sources turned out to be more on the money than Bill Hunts (not that I'm surprised).
post #956 of 1635
1/10/08 at 8:05pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
Ok this may be a stupid question? What is the ICT flag?

Since no one seems to have answered this I guess I will. The ICT (Image Control Token) is a flag that can be set to restrict the transmission of 720p or 1080i signals over analog outputs. If it is invoked the maximum resolution allowed over analog outputs is 480p.
post #957 of 1635
1/10/08 at 8:16pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Sun
Well, Universal and Paramount are sticking with HD DVD because the Warners announcement just freed up a lot of HD DVD production capacity. Let's hope they use the extra capacity to put out some desired classics and current new releases.

Look on the bright side, perhaps the HD/BD BOGOs will continue for another 6-12 months.


What if they are planning Blu Ray, but drop 10 mega ton bombs on HD for catalogs that HD-DVD owners simply cannot pass up.


Then, when they go blu, drop em again just so everyone picks them up again.


Hey, I MIGHT be alllllll for that if Universal drops Jurassic Park.
post #958 of 1635
1/10/08 at 8:28pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

There is no doubt that Universal and Paramount could employ a double-dip strategy by pushing out as many HD DVD titles (and hope HD DVD consumers continue to buy them) until they decide to fold up the HD DVD tent, and then reaping more sales when those titles get put out as BD titles later.

It might be just be a cash-grab, but at this point, if you still bought the HD DVDs because you didn't want to wait, you can't later claim indignant ignorance when those titles get released on BD later, and you just couldn't exercise purchasing restraint. You knew better, as soon as Warner dropped their bombshell last Friday, the HD DVD landscape got smaller, and its viability took a big hit in terms of retail presence in the near/middling future. Hell, if Ron's UPS driver knows about Warners Blu Bombshell(tm), the rest of the movie-buying public will know as well.

Would I welcome a comeback by HD DVD, sure, mainly because it keeps prices down, and we are years away before either format is a contender to SD DVD, so why pay more to enjoy HDM if I don't have to do so. Competition is good for driving down prices and refining each format's hardware and software.
post #959 of 1635
1/10/08 at 8:35pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Dave, the ICT (Image Constraint Token) is a component of the AACS encryption and DRM system used on Blu-ray and HD DVD. When the token is enabled, the maximum resolution of a 1080p/i (1920x1080) or 720p (1280x720) video signal is reduced to 540p (960x540) over analogue component video outputs (it does not impact HDMI connections). The resulting video quality is considerably higher resolution than that possible on DVD-Video (exactly 50% higher), but much lower than 720p or 1080p (around 25% of the latter).

No studios currently use the ICT, thereby allowing the many owners of legacy component-only HDTVs to watch both Blu-ray and HD DVD at their higher 1080i and 720p resolutions. If and when the token is activated in the future, the video resolution of future discs will be automatically reduced for these HDTV owners. They will need to 'upgrade' to HDTVs with HDMI or HDCP-enabled DVI inputs in order to view resolutions above 540p once again.

Adam
post #960 of 1635
1/10/08 at 8:39pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

I wish them good luck with that strategy. This thing needs to end once and for all. I know I'll refrain from buying Universal and Paramount titles until they wake and smell the coffee. And before I get accused of being a "Blu-ray fanboy", I'll say that I would do exactly the same thing if only two studios were supporting Blu-ray. They need to be sent a message that this "war" needs to be terminated. It is now obvious they will only get the picture by seeing a massive drop in the sales of their titles on HD DVD.
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