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post #1051 of 1635
1/12/08 at 7:58am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Yep it's all pretty silly. There's much more important things with living one's life. Maybe that helps explain my use of smilies as I don't take all this crap seriously.
post #1052 of 1635
1/12/08 at 8:01am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
Yes, at the present time I think that it is the most capable machine out there. It is a good stop gap machine until the BDA gets off its blu ass and puts out fully featured standalones. The PS3 isn't going to be the last player I own. I want to get a more traditional standalone, but for a comparable price, at this time, nothing else measures up. Once they do the PS3 will go back to being primarily a game machine in my rack. Anyway, I didn't intend this to become a PS3 yea or nay thread. This is supposed to be about Warner's Big Blu decision, so I think we need to get back on track.

Agreed?

Agreed on every point.

Uh-oh! Used a smiley. RC is gonna nit-pick. Damn! Did it again!
post #1053 of 1635
1/12/08 at 8:24am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

The report that Warner was originally hoping to go HD DVD exclusive as long as one other studio went red too... a story that I got an early inside scoop on and Ron subsequently verified here... has been published as fact in a major newspaper this morning:

Sound Advice: Blu-ray wins in format war, but at what cost?

$620 million between Fox and Warner compliments of the BDA! So much for the consumer choosing!

Mark
post #1054 of 1635
1/12/08 at 8:41am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Booth
The report that Warner was originally hoping to go HD DVD exclusive as long as one other studio went red too... a story that I got an early inside scoop on and Ron subsequently verified here... has been published as fact in a major newspaper this morning:

Sound Advice: Blu-ray wins in format war, but at what cost?

$620 million between Fox and Warner compliments of the BDA! So much for the consumer choosing!

Mark

That's an interesting link, obviously written by someone who already preferred one format, it reads more like an editorial or someone on an hd-dvd thread on one of these sites. There are some facts in the story, and certainly no one has actually confirmed anywhere the dollar number of the payoffs. But why are the payoffs pissing so many people off? We know the other studios are getting them as well as incentives. I believe Universal from the start has been getting huge money too. That goes for all studios (except Sony/Columbia, hehe). It's common business practice these days, that is "shady" business deals are everywhere-businesses, companies and government. So I am somewhat surprised by the shock and anger of it.

When Paramount went hd-dvd only, blu-ray fans were very angry and upset, and I remember, at the time, hundreds of posts from hd-dvd fans doing the "ha ha ha" thing. See, no studio has ever left hd-dvd until now. I think finally those hd-dvd people now realize the bad feeling we had with Paramount and how it wasn't a pleasant experience for us either.

The fact is Warner has gone blu. They are the largest home video company with the most releases and probably the best transfers (of classics for sure). My personal hope is that we can move on, have one format, get the mainstream consumer to dip in (the more that do,the more the prices of the movies will come down), and we can finally get to a point that we had with dvd-where everyone on these forums was enjoying a mutual excitement instead of clobbering each other to death!
post #1055 of 1635
1/12/08 at 8:43am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Warner gave Toshiba an opportunity to lure a Blu-ray studio to HD DVD

An opportunity was given, and Toshiba couldn't deliver. Too funny.
post #1056 of 1635
1/12/08 at 8:47am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Payoffs were made from both sides... whoever offered the most cash won. It's as simple as that - business is business.

And I do believe the consumers did choose a format - it's called DVD. The BDA will learn a very expensive lesson down the road.
post #1057 of 1635
1/12/08 at 8:49am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Well, if Fox really was thinking of jumping to HD DVD due to lack of BD manufacturing infrastructure then it may not be over at all. BD infrastructure is now going to have to accomodate Warner, who was one of the most prolific releasers on HDM. If SONY and the BDA cannot solve their production shortfalls in a timely manner then they could end up eventually driving Warner and Fox back to HD DVD, regardless of the money. In addition to the funds I'm sure they must have made promises to both studios in regards to suppling sufficient infrastructure. Now here is the question. Will SONY and the BDA have sufficient funds left over to expand BD production at a satisfactory rate after paying out all of that loyalty money?

Edit: This is assuming that the article is accurate in regards to BD production problems.
post #1058 of 1635
1/12/08 at 8:52am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
How are you drawing this conclusion when HDM still only accounts for less than 5% of the market? For the most part, consumers have given both formats a vote of no confidence. If hdm is to ever break into the mainstream, I assure you that people won't be rushing out to buy $400-$500 game systems to play them on, it will probably be a sub $100 stand-alone or some other inexpensive delivery method/device. The PS3 has been successful enough to give BD an edge over HD-DVD because a majority of consumers have stayed away from both formats, nothing more (It has also kept the PS3 behind the X-Box 360 and Wii). I agree there will certainly be other methods to deliver movie software, but to become mainstream it will have to be signifcantly cheaper than the PS3. The way the economy is going, I really don't think we'll see this mad rush to jump into hdm unless it's CHEAP.

I agree with you on many of the things you said in your post (above), but my conclusion about stand-alone players not being the only way of movie delivery anymore is true. In the next few years, as is happening now, there will be more machines that handle more functions. If you have watched CES this year and the daily news, there were tons of multi-function pieces being introduced. I don't say everyone is going to walk away from stand-alone players by any means. But I really think Sony is showing that you can have one awesome player for more functionality. I agree, the mainstream wants cheap, but I believe that since the fact they have purchased an expensive high-def tv, many will be willing to spend a little more for a hd player. At least that's the experience I had working at Best Buy and selling these items every day. I do agree, there is a large percentage also that wants the cheapest and I think by year's end, we will have sub $150 blu-ray players, if not even $99 on Black Friday or holiday sales.
post #1059 of 1635
1/12/08 at 8:59am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Being a snob might not have anything to do with it so please stop judging others because there might be other reasons. For me, I'm not into gaming at all due to having no time for them and I don't like the looks of the equipment as it compares to the rest of my equipment in my HT rack. Furthermore, it's an indictment against this format and the BDA partners that the PS3 performs better than many of the standalone players. IMO, it shouldn't be that way. This is coming from an owner of three different standalone BR models. I'm an enthusiast so I'm totally into HDM, but what about the majority of consumers that these companies need to buy their product? That is why the manufacturers and studios need to do a better job of producing products that doesn't adversely affect consumer satisfaction. This has nothing to do with snobs, but instead good business.

I agree with you Robert. What I think needs to happen is the BDA needs to have a meeting and pass a resolution that every player released needs to be 2.0 (have the ethernet port), should be able to either send Dolby True and DTS master out the analogs (internal decoders) or bitstream through HDMI, and should be required to be tested with about 20 discs from every studio including those with 1.1 and 2.,0 features, before it would get the blu-ray stamp. This would stop all of the problem, in my opinion. Why they have not required this, especially with players released since October/November is beyond me.

As for the PS3 discussion, I don't plan on this being my blu-ray player forever either. I personally think it's an awesome looking machine, but that's my opinion, and I tend to go for what works best as compared to what looks best in my rack, but again, that's just me. The PS3 I own was purchased for blu-ray movie playing, period. Over a period of a month, I decided to buy the game "Drake's Fortune, Uncharted" and can now truly say the PS3 has me playing games, I never thought it would happen. I was looking heavily at purchasing the Samsung bd-up5000 combi player, but after Warner's decision and the CES show, have decided to take a hard look at Panasonic's upcoming 2.0 player with internal Dolby True and DTS Master decoders, so I don't need to upgrade my receiver at this time that does not have HDMI but does have 7.1 analog inputs. I will still use my PS3 for gaming and blu-ray too in my living room. I believe the PS3 upscaling to 1080p is 2nd only to the Reon processor. I've had the Sony 300, Panny 10a and those didn't come close.
post #1060 of 1635
1/12/08 at 9:22am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
An opportunity was given, and Toshiba couldn't deliver. Too funny.

Was it funny? Sounds to me like Toshiba may have been played....
and you know what?.....so be it.

You can call it bias if you want, but that linked article above is
the most accurate depiction of what we heard word-for-word prior
to the announcement.
post #1061 of 1635
1/12/08 at 9:36am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein
Was it funny? Sounds to me like Toshiba may have been played....
and you know what?.....so be it.

You can call it bias if you want, but that linked article above is
the most accurate depiction of what we heard word-for-word prior
to the announcement.

I don't get what you mean by played. If they were then Warner would have to be in on whatever game was going down. Why would they screw over a partner that they have been in business with since the beginning of DVD?

Warner also seemed to prefer HD DVD, so why would they take part in an operation that was designed to hose Toshiba? Just to get more out of SONY?
post #1062 of 1635
1/12/08 at 10:00am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

You have to remember the big HD DVD Press Conference that was set for last Sunday. Insiders have reported that Fox was planning to go HD DVD exclusive WITH Warner and it was to be announced at the Press Conference. Then, in the 11th hour, Fox backed out.

Ron is referring to the possibility that Fox never really intended to go HD DVD but simply "played" the HD DVD group to get more money from the BDA. Sounds like that figure was right around $120 million dollars.

Mark
post #1063 of 1635
1/12/08 at 10:17am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Booth
The report that Warner was originally hoping to go HD DVD exclusive as long as one other studio went red too... a story that I got an early inside scoop on and Ron subsequently verified here... has been published as fact in a major newspaper this morning:

Sound Advice: Blu-ray wins in format war, but at what cost?

$620 million between Fox and Warner compliments of the BDA! So much for the consumer choosing!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertSiegel
That's an interesting link, obviously written by someone who already preferred one format, it reads more like an editorial or someone on an hd-dvd thread on one of these sites.
The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette article comes from Don Lindich who is very much a HD DVD supporter. The unedited version of the article can be found on his blog, SoundAdvice. Even so, IMHO, the story does accurately cover the set of events that led to Warner choosing Blu-ray over HD DVD.
post #1064 of 1635
1/12/08 at 10:46am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

There is a point about the Japanese business style, which is a bit different than the western style, in the article mentioned in the previous post. By the way, I'm half-Japanese, half Irish (so every December the 7th, I sneak up on a green beer). So it might be awhile before this format war concludes if it ever does.
post #1065 of 1635
1/12/08 at 10:57am

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Just to get more out of SONY?
Sure, why not?
post #1066 of 1635
1/12/08 at 1:41pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Booth
Insiders have reported that Fox was planning to go HD DVD exclusive WITH Warner and it was to be announced at the Press Conference. Then, in the 11th hour, Fox backed out.

So this is the "what happened" for you? Well, we can of course believe what we want (and: Who knows?), but this is hardly the "facts" on the case...
post #1067 of 1635
1/12/08 at 1:46pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
but this is hardly the "facts" on the case...
Have any new and hard evidence to support that statement, Jari?


Cees
post #1068 of 1635
1/12/08 at 2:13pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
First it was the formats that we labeled each other with and now, it's going to be which players we're using as we try to catagorize each other?

Personally, I think it's all silly.

It´s indeed. Could we just let the people enjoy their PS3s, Xbox 360s or whatever player they´re using. I mean after all, we all watch HD-films, so we should just enjoy them.

PS3 this, PS3 that. C´mon.
post #1069 of 1635
1/12/08 at 2:19pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_B
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
What Patrick said. All you folks yearning for a quick end to the war, I hope you enjoy paying premium prices for your HDM. This is a classic case of "be sure you want what you ask for".
That argument doesn't wash. DVD had no competition and yet prices came down. There's absolutely no reason to believe HDM won't do the same.
The argument washes fine when you include all of it. What Patrick said was: "we are years away before either format is a contender to SD DVD". The price of DVD came down only when it achieved significant market penetration. Unless one is convinced that a huge segment of the population is ready to switch to Blu-ray or HD DVD in the near future, the situation simply isn't comparable.

M.
post #1070 of 1635
1/12/08 at 2:20pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

No! No! I refuse to believe FOX and WARNER is on BD because they got a big fat reward! It is the superior format it's gotta be! It's gotta be! Sorry ladies and gents, the truth hurts. BD is still not up to speed to HD-DVD in terms of players and manufacturing and it still won. We should all be glad then that the future of HD is now in the hands of SONY.
post #1071 of 1635
1/12/08 at 2:37pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Well Paul, that should certainly sum things up and squelch the debate.
post #1072 of 1635
1/12/08 at 2:52pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

The simple fact is nether side was ready for pirme time. Both formats have had there share of hardware and software issues. For me no matter which way this format war was to go, I am looking at owning a player that will no longer be supported after the war ends. But like many others here I purchased both players and rolled the dice. My Sony BDP-S300 has been alot more stable than my Toshiba HD-A1. The only problem I had with my Blu-ray is that I had problems with menus on one movie, every other title I own has played flawlessly. I have lived with HD-DVD for alittle over a year now and while it sounds good and looks great. I have been living with my Blu-ray player for around 6 months or so and I love it. I actually prefer it to my HD-DVD and that has nothing to do with what has be said here at HTF or any other online forum. I will by buying a Denon DVD-2500 BT this year to upgrade my current Sony, that is how much I beleive in Blu-ray and what it can be. I know that Blu-ray is not perfect and nether is HD-DVD. But I see Blu-ray being the better choice and that means that my HD-DVD player will end up being reduced to doing nothing more than playing HD-DVD titles that I have allready. As I do not forsee the HD-DVD format being around and having new releases continue after they decided to pull the plug on HD-DVD. It's is only a matter of time before the format I purchased alittle over a year ago does not have any new titles to enjoy. But I knew that there was allway the chance the the format could loose. I however do not see it as a waste of money. I will still have HD titles on the HD-DVD format that I will continue to enjoy for many years to come.

I will be glad when there is only one format and maybe the industry can finally get behind marketing one HD format. Having two formats sure made it easier to buy what ever title I wanted but like I said it is time for this war to end. As much as I love my Blu-ray I can not say I will not miss having new HD-DVD titles in my HD library, HD-DVD will be missed.

Thank you WB for going Blu!

Please Please Please Universal go Blu! There are so many Universal titles I would buy if there where on Bluray. That is because at least there would be no data rate issues keeping them from including lossless audio. Or if they want to stay HD-DVD they will save me some money as there will be less titles on my shopping list.

WB Titles I would like to see on the Blu-ray format, with lossless audio.
  • Lethal Weapon 3
  • Lethal Weapon 4
  • Superman 3
  • Superman 4
  • Heat
  • The Matrix Trilogy
  • Batman Begins
  • Logan's Run
  • The Shawshank Redemption
  • The Perfect Storm
  • The Music Man
  • Gone With The Wind
  • US Marshals
  • One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
  • Young Guns 2
  • Terminator 2 - Reissue DTS-HD Master Audio or at least Dolby True HD
  • The Never Ending Story
  • Contact
  • 2010
  • Unforgiven
  • The Body Guard
  • Operation Pacific
  • The Pelican Brief
  • Doc Hollywood
Just to name a few.
post #1073 of 1635
1/12/08 at 3:47pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

I sure hope that Blu-ray player prices drop quite a bit more, and quickly. Without Warner, the competition from HD DVD won't be as strong and the format war is the single biggest reason that HD DVD players got down to sub-$100 (albeit, briefly), which I am confident helped push down Blu-ray player prices too.

Without significantly lower prices on Blu-ray players (and discs too), HDM is going to be doomed to be nothing more than a niche format. We'll be lucky if it grows bigger than Laserdisc.

Warner's switch to the more expensive, less feature-rich format might end the format war but it might also doom HDM in general.

Mark
post #1074 of 1635
1/12/08 at 3:57pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

The Laserdisc price point, point, is valid. But back in the day, the converse was at work.

What helped LD as well as CED was the fact they were both always sold at "Sell Through" pricing. Meaning, MUCH less than VHS or Beta prices that were set for "Rental Pricing" ($99.99). Frankly, among the Joe Sixpacks I was selling and renting these 2 disc formats to, price was the deal. A small percentage went for the picture quality of LD. AND they ALL were mostly buyers.

So, yeah...the price point needs to hit retail of $24.99 so it can be discounted to around $19.99 or less.
post #1075 of 1635
1/12/08 at 4:30pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter
The Laserdisc price point, point, is valid. But back in the day, the converse was at work.

What helped LD as well as CED was the fact they were both always sold at "Sell Through" pricing. Meaning, MUCH less than VHS or Beta prices that were set for "Rental Pricing" ($99.99). Frankly, among the Joe Sixpacks I was selling and renting these 2 disc formats to, price was the deal. A small percentage went for the picture quality of LD. AND they ALL were mostly buyers.

So, yeah...the price point needs to hit retail of $24.99 so it can be discounted to around $19.99 or less.

Well it wasn't ALWAYS sold at sell through prices. After about 1984 when the price of most VHS movie dropped to $19.95, most laserdiscs were still around $40.

Doug
post #1076 of 1635
1/12/08 at 4:50pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Was it funny? Sounds to me like Toshiba may have been played....

I wonder if Warner had gone with HD DVD, would you have said that the BDA was played?

I know that HTF is format neutral, but there comes a point in time when "false hope" is more damaging than "no hope"...

TheDigtalBits, went from super-pro BR to semi-neutral when Paramount switched sides... Sony CEO Howard Stringer was quoted as saying the high-def disc format between Blu-ray and HD DVD has become a "stalemate"...

Isn't it time to say to your readers, "I don't know, so lets just wait and see... This is bigger than just Toshiba and Sony, we have to wait to see what the retailers decide" instead of "Don't be surprised if something else happens..."

Now is not the time for a rally, Toshiba and Universal are not rallying... They are busy "negotiating" with their partners... No MSRP prices have been dropped and few releases have been announced... It's all quiet on the the Red front... But its not quiet on the "HTF neutral" front!!!

Let the Blu team celebrate... The Red team certainly did when Paramount went Red... If Toshiba can pull a rabbit of the hat, then sound the trumpets and lets get back to battlefield...

Until then, I'm just waiting to hear news from the combatants and not the sideline commentators...
post #1077 of 1635
1/12/08 at 5:15pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomes
The one area where Blu-Ray is TRULY next-gen, is the fact that it has much higher capacity per layer. All new replication equipment is needed for BD, compared to a minor upgrade for HDDVD. It's pretty clear that BD is a newer technology with more potential than HDDVD, but that said, HDDVD is today the better (more mature) format.

There is nothing about HD DVD that makes it impossible for it to have higher capacity or wider bandwith, they simply chose these specs because they thought it was more than enough to handle the job. In fact a 51 gig HD DVD is being worked on. Just having more space doesn't mean that it is leaps and bounds above.

What happened is that blu-ray reinvented the wheel in order to do something that HD DVD did using the same disc structure.

And exactly what is this potential that everyone is talking about? Do you think that somehow blu-ray will suddenly jump to 2k resolution, or 4k? Will it suddenly have lossless video? Obviously these kinds of changes will require a whole new delivery format, not to mention a new display format.

The only advances we will see with blu-ray will be the codecs becoming more efficient, and the techs getting better at encoding. These same exact advances will happen with HD DVD.

Doug
post #1078 of 1635
1/12/08 at 5:15pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

"Well it wasn't ALWAYS sold at sell through prices. After about 1984 when the price of most VHS movie dropped to $19.95, most laserdiscs were still around $40."


I know that isn't true. I remember bying Star Trek Generations in the early 90's on LD for less than it was going for on VHS when it first came out. That was one of the last in that category, but it was still well after 1984.
post #1079 of 1635
1/12/08 at 5:19pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Allen
"Well it wasn't ALWAYS sold at sell through prices. After about 1984 when the price of most VHS movie dropped to $19.95, most laserdiscs were still around $40."


I know that isn't true. I remember bying Star Trek Generations in the early 90's on LD for less than it was going for on VHS when it first came out. That was one of the last in that category, but it was still well after 1984.

Yes the price of laserdiscs came down in the early 90s. But for a good 6 or 7 years, laserdiscs were a good $20 more than most VHS releases. Particularly if you bought the CAV version.

Doug
post #1080 of 1635
1/12/08 at 5:24pm

Re: Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

And they were only available for a few releases.
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