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Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument - Page 2

post #31 of 61
12/28/07 at 5:07pm

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
David, I understand that you work at a small independent company so your resources dwarf those of a studio. But the fact that a company like Shout! Factory can pay the bills releasing shows studios wouldn't give the time of day while studios can't even make money on proven hits speaks volumes.

Shout is very similar to us. They hit on some and they miss on some. But they definitely do not recoup on every deal. You just have to hope the hits outweigh the misses. Shout is also fortunate to have people at the top that really love DVD and pretty deep pockets from their recent distribution deal.

But like any independent, they need to be careful with their balance. Too many mediocre to bad deals can easily sink a small studio. It wasn't that long ago that Rhino was on top of the world. Things can change in a blink.

I'm a huge fan of Shouts, and if I ever decided to leave my job, they are one of the few places that would top my list.
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post #32 of 61
12/28/07 at 5:37pm

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

On the subject of marketing, I find it odd how little cross-promotion of classic tv series occurs on the dvds themselves. With all of the vintage series being released by CBS/Paramount lately, I think I've only seen "trailer" promos of MISSION IMPOSSIBLE on a few other CBS/Paramount discs. You'd think it would make marketing sense to put together a promo for, say, THE UNTOUCHABLES, and include it on the FUGITIVE, PERRY MASON, GUNSMOKE and RAWHIDE sets, and vice-versa. Or GREEN ACRES and MR. ED promos on MGM's ADDAMS FAMILY releases, etc. I've never seen any kind of DVD promo for THE WILD WILD WEST, even though the series will soon be complete on the format.

Fox often cross-promotes their "film noir" line, offering a batch of trailers on each "film noir" disc of the other "film noir" titles currently available, or coming soon, but I haven't seen anything like that done with their Irwin Allen series dvds, for instance, advertising the availability of LOST IN SPACE, LAND OF THE GIANTS or TIME TUNNEL on their VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA discs.

Even just a quick, catch-all "classic --your studio's name here-- tv" promo, featuring several/all of a company's available tv series, included as a trailer on their other dvd releases (not just on other tv-on-dvd releases, but featured on recent and catalog film discs, too). There would obviously some cost involved in doing this, but my guess is that it would be far less of an expense than buying commercial time on TV networks, or for print advertising in major newspapers and magazines.

With very few exceptions (I think I've seen a BEWITCHED tv-on-dvd promo, but that was likely exclusive to the disc of the Will Ferrell/Nicole Kidman movie of a couple of years ago), I've only seen this sort of "trailer promo" thing done with more recent tv series, most of which get heavy advertising/exposure on tv already.

I'm mainly taking about the big studios here; the indies, as usual, do a better job at cross-promotion on their discs.
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post #33 of 61
12/29/07 at 6:03pm

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Phil, your post was excellent and should be required reading for anyone interested in this topic.

As others have posted, it amazes me how many posts in this forum think that studios "owe" them releases and that anytime a series doesn't perform well at retail that it is the studio's fault. It is definitely a different mindset than one sees on the theatrical forum where people seem to be much more in tune with the economic realities behind releases. There are various series that I would love to collect but am not holding my breath for simply because I know the sales potential just isn't that great. Full page ads and commercials aren't going to make people buy sets if they don't have an interest in the show in the first place.

My biggest frustration with split seasons is a lack of understanding as to why CBS/Paramount splits some series but not others. In an ideal world a CBS/Paramount rep would provide some insight into this to a journalist. In my opinion, if consumers could be educated as to the logic behind their strategy that would go a long way to alleviating some concerns consumers have expressed on this forum about that topic.

Steve
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post #34 of 61
12/29/07 at 8:13pm

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter M Fitzgerald
On the subject of marketing, I find it odd how little cross-promotion of classic tv series occurs on the dvds themselves. With all of the vintage series being released by CBS/Paramount lately, I think I've only seen "trailer" promos of MISSION IMPOSSIBLE on a few other CBS/Paramount discs. You'd think it would make marketing sense to put together a promo for, say, THE UNTOUCHABLES, and include it on the FUGITIVE, PERRY MASON, GUNSMOKE and RAWHIDE sets, and vice-versa. Or GREEN ACRES and MR. ED promos on MGM's ADDAMS FAMILY releases, etc. I've never seen any kind of DVD promo for THE WILD WILD WEST, even though the series will soon be complete on the format.

Fox often cross-promotes their "film noir" line, offering a batch of trailers on each "film noir" disc of the other "film noir" titles currently available, or coming soon, but I haven't seen anything like that done with their Irwin Allen series dvds, for instance, advertising the availability of LOST IN SPACE, LAND OF THE GIANTS or TIME TUNNEL on their VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA discs.

Even just a quick, catch-all "classic --your studio's name here-- tv" promo, featuring several/all of a company's available tv series, included as a trailer on their other dvd releases (not just on other tv-on-dvd releases, but featured on recent and catalog film discs, too). There would obviously some cost involved in doing this, but my guess is that it would be far less of an expense than buying commercial time on TV networks, or for print advertising in major newspapers and magazines.

With very few exceptions (I think I've seen a BEWITCHED tv-on-dvd promo, but that was likely exclusive to the disc of the Will Ferrell/Nicole Kidman movie of a couple of years ago), I've only seen this sort of "trailer promo" thing done with more recent tv series, most of which get heavy advertising/exposure on tv already.

I'm mainly taking about the big studios here; the indies, as usual, do a better job at cross-promotion on their discs.

I could not agree with you more.

It's a VERY inexpensive way to get info into the hands of your target consumers.

We do it all the time.

On all of our "Ink and Paint" releases, we have a section that has all the openings to every other related property. And we'll put an entire bonus episode of a related show on a set whenever we have the chance (Flash Gordon on Defenders of the Earth, Live Action The Ghost Busters on Animated Ghostbusters, etc.). Heck our Grindhouse line has trailers for other movies we'll be putting out in the middle of the double-feature.
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post #35 of 61
12/29/07 at 8:55pm

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Levine
I could not agree with you more.

It's a VERY inexpensive way to get info into the hands of your target consumers.

We do it all the time.

On all of our "Ink and Paint" releases, we have a section that has all the openings to every other related property. And we'll put an entire bonus episode of a related show on a set whenever we have the chance (Flash Gordon on Defenders of the Earth, Live Action The Ghost Busters on Animated Ghostbusters, etc.). Heck our Grindhouse line has trailers for other movies we'll be putting out in the middle of the double-feature.

It's more inexpensive for films since trailers have already been paid for - you don't have to sit for hours editing, pay for the announcer and getting folks to sign off. Just transfer and go with a theatrical trailer. I did like the Ink and Paint just going with the openings of the shows - that's what lured me into buying Isis and Ark II.
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post #36 of 61
12/29/07 at 9:22pm

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey3rd
I did like the Ink and Paint just going with the openings of the shows - that's what lured me into buying Isis and Ark II.

Proof that it works!
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post #37 of 61
12/30/07 at 5:09pm

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by progrocktv
As stated in another thread a $20-ish price tag is MUCH more appealing to consumers than $40-50. Once you're above, let's say $25 then you're driving the "impulse buy" away. Also many consumers do want to purchase an entire season but let's face it our economy is not at it's best and consumers have less and less disposable income now adays to plop down $60-$100 at one time.

The problem with that is that half seasons aren't selling for $20-$25, it's been posted that half season sets are STILL selling at $35-$40

Quote:
Originally Posted by progrocktv
And finally, I know it's sounds illogical and I'm probably going to upset some people on this forum, but many people, who are the hardcore fans of a series, are upset at the split season sets and are refusing to buy. That's all fine and dandy but honestly the hardcore fans aren't the most important customer to most of the studios and most of the time are only considered "a small, vocal minority". It's the "average consumer" they are after for the bulk of the sales most of the time and if a couple of diehard fans are upset, so be it. I've had quite a few conversations with sales departments of some of the major studios and the "Hardcores" as some of them call them, can be bittersweet, even hearing "fans can either be a blessing or a major thorn in the side". In other words they can help with the promotion of a series, which is considered a blessing, or they can be "whiners" which is then considered a burden. In other words if the hardcores aren't buying, but the general public IS, no big loss in the studio's eyes.

On some of the sets now out, I could be considered an "average consumer". I've never watched The Fugitive, I vaguely remember The Mod Squad, but do you think I'm going to spend $35 on a half season set when the whole set usually sells for the same price? Instead of enticing me to buy those sets, all they've done is ensure that I WILL NOT do a blind buy with them. And what is the reason to do that to The Fugitive? I'm sure the studio knows the fan base for that show is there. It's clear to me that it's not a case of splitting the seasons to lower the price, as it's been shown the price is still the same whether it's half a season or a whole season. It's simply the studios are trying to milk us for all they can.

I guess I can be considered a "hardcore" fan, but I will not buy split sets. I planned on buying The Streets Of San Francisco & The Untouchables until word got out the seasons were split. That was when I deleted them from my list of shows to buy. If they sell well enough to get everything released and then the studio decides to do a complete series box set, then I'll jump on them.

If anyone can get numbers, I'd love to see what the numbers were on the Fall Guy Season1 as opposed to the Volume 1 & 2. I'm willing to bet the complete season outsold the volumes.
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post #38 of 61
12/30/07 at 9:01pm

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Not everyone is all up for these half season sets. While there have been dozens of sets released in this fashion studios have been breaking up a 26 episode season into two sets trying to squeeze as much money out of fans as possible. I can't see spending $35 for a 13 episode set when these season sets ran for 26 episodes. The studios can fit the entire season on a single set.

I think the studios are trying to offset the losses they've been incurring on the drop in sales for home video.
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post #39 of 61
12/30/07 at 9:53pm

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

But for further seasons they don't take into account the losses from people who consider it a ripoff and don't buy it. That happened with The Big Valley. If they were charging only $20 or even $25 it wouldn't be as bad.
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post #40 of 61
12/30/07 at 10:43pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane Alford
If anyone can get numbers, I'd love to see what the numbers were on the Fall Guy Season1 as opposed to the Volume 1 & 2. I'm willing to bet the complete season outsold the volumes.

I'm sure the numbers for the first season of Fall Guy were below expectations, that's why they split the set. If the studios were truly trying to milk the market, you'd see half season sets on ALL TV releases, but for the most part looks like they're splitting the sets for the "higher risk" older properties.
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post #41 of 61
12/30/07 at 10:45pm

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Talmadge
Not everyone is all up for these half season sets. While there have been dozens of sets released in this fashion studios have been breaking up a 26 episode season into two sets trying to squeeze as much money out of fans as possible. I can't see spending $35 for a 13 episode set when these season sets ran for 26 episodes. The studios can fit the entire season on a single set.

I think the studios are trying to offset the losses they've been incurring on the drop in sales for home video.

BINGO! I agree, Ive always seen splits season sets as economic move to get more money and nothing else. Example when the S1 V1 of the streets of san francisco came out retailers were charging between 29.95 to 39.95 (yes 39.95 that what my local walmart was pimping it for) so for the S1 both volumns of SoSf would have cost double a normal full season set. Which is BS , and it wasnt till the local Walmart slash the price to 15.95 that the SoSF s1 v1 and v2 begain to sell, Gee image that, the consumers arent such dummies after all and wouldnt bite on a split season rip off
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post #42 of 61
12/30/07 at 10:50pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
But for further seasons they don't take into account the losses from people who consider it a ripoff and don't buy it. That happened with The Big Valley. If they were charging only $20 or even $25 it wouldn't be as bad.

Again, small vocal minority in the studios eyes. I'm sure this has come up during the studio's Marketing Department research (believe it or not they do quite a bit of it), but the numbers are so insignificant it doesn't really matter to them.

Example is when I was working at my last job we took a certain TV series off one of our channels. Soon afterwards we received a petition of about 3,000 signatures to bring back the series. However, that number was still considered insignificant by upper management and the series was never brought back.
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post #43 of 61
12/31/07 at 12:30am

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Then the studios are cockeyed.
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post #44 of 61
12/31/07 at 1:40am
Thread Starter 

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
Then the studios are cockeyed.

Maybe, but sadly making millions each year.
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post #45 of 61
12/31/07 at 6:06am

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobSchneider
BINGO! I agree, Ive always seen splits season sets as economic move to get more money and nothing else.

It probably is, but I think the studios find it necessary to warrant releasing older TV shows that aren't as high in demand, to make it worthwhile for them finanically.

Take something that's really popular, like THE SOPRANOS. Now, if these were split into seasons (I believe Season 6 was) it would be a move to "milk" more out of the fanbase. Because the company knows that people WILL buy it, because there is a big demand.

But take something relatively less marketable, older, and obscure like THE MOD SQUAD or LOVE AMERICAN STYLE. In this case, there will be far less people interested... do you really think the splitting of season sets here are to "milk" the fan and to make more money? I'm not so sure in cases like this; it seems that this may be considered the best way to make older shows like these profitable for the studio to even bother with a release.

Believe me, I'd prefer NOT paying higher prices to obtain a full run of a show I want in split volumes; but I'd gladly welcome this other than the studios deciding not to release a show AT ALL because they feel they can't make any money on it.
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post #46 of 61
12/31/07 at 10:58am

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Karlosi
Believe me, I'd prefer NOT paying higher prices to obtain a full run of a show I want in split volumes; but I'd gladly welcome this other than the studios deciding not to release a show AT ALL because they feel they can't make any money on it.
Same here.

And like Joe alluded to, if it was a case of just wanting to bleed the consumers, why are they only doing it on less popular shows? If that was their plan then much better selling sets like Lost, 24, The Simpsons, Seinfeld, South Park, etc would be split in volumes too.
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post #47 of 61
12/31/07 at 11:21am

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elena S
Yes, advertising is expensive. But hell, just make the DVDs available at stores like Barnes & Noble and Borders, which many people frequent. They are missing out on TONS of impulse buys because the DVDs aren't in stores.

You're assuming, of course, that the studios dictate what the retail stores are going to put on their shelves. I don't think it works that way.
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post #48 of 61
12/31/07 at 1:02pm

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_F_S
You're assuming, of course, that the studios dictate what the retail stores are going to put on their shelves. I don't think it works that way.

Scott is right. It absolutely does not work that way. It is up to the retailer what to stock and how many units they will buy from the distributor.

If S1 of a particular series tanks at retail retailers are not going to order S2 or if they do, it will be in reduced quantities. The studio that released S1 thus is not going to put any resources into releasing S2 because they won't have a viable market for it.
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post #49 of 61
12/31/07 at 1:05pm

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_F_S
You're assuming, of course, that the studios dictate what the retail stores are going to put on their shelves. I don't think it works that way.

Yup. And Barnes & Noble and Borders have a lot less DVD real estate than a Best Buy. They also have a different consumer, usually a higher retail price and very particular buyers.
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post #50 of 61
12/31/07 at 2:20pm

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

retailers rely more on their websites for older titles.
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post #51 of 61
12/31/07 at 4:04pm

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey3rd
retailers rely more on their websites for older titles.

I agree with that too.

The problem is we have more stuff than ever coming out, so there is less room for the marginal stuff and no room for the poor sellers.

Internet shopping has become the haven of the "niche purchase".
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post #52 of 61
12/31/07 at 11:33pm

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by progrocktv
I'm sure the numbers for the first season of Fall Guy were below expectations, that's why they split the set. If the studios were truly trying to milk the market, you'd see half season sets on ALL TV releases, but for the most part looks like they're splitting the sets for the "higher risk" older properties.

You need to read my post again. Fox actually made 3 releases: Season 1 (the complete season), Season 1 Volume 1, and Season 1 Volume 2. While they said they wanted to give the people that buy whole seasons that option and the people that buy split seasons that option. My guess is they wanted to see which sold more. I'd be willing to bet the complete first season sold more.
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post #53 of 61
12/31/07 at 11:43pm

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Karlosi
It probably is, but I think the studios find it necessary to warrant releasing older TV shows that aren't as high in demand, to make it worthwhile for them finanically.

I've never watched The Fugitive, but I'm pretty sure it was in demand, so what's the excuse for splitting it up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Karlosi
But take something relatively less marketable, older, and obscure like THE MOD SQUAD or LOVE AMERICAN STYLE. In this case, there will be far less people interested... do you really think the splitting of season sets here are to "milk" the fan and to make more money? I'm not so sure in cases like this; it seems that this may be considered the best way to make older shows like these profitable for the studio to even bother with a release.

Like I've said before, when season sets usually sell for $30-$40 and Season 1 Volume 1 of The Mod Squad is selling for $35, it'll cost $70 for the complete first season. How is that supposed to get anyone interested in buying it? How do you not consider that milking the fans? IMO, the only people that would shell out $70 for one season of episodes aren't your avarage consumer, but the diehard hardcore fans.
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post #54 of 61
1/1/08 at 5:44am

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
But for further seasons they don't take into account the losses from people who consider it a ripoff and don't buy it. That happened with The Big Valley.

It's certainly backfired on the studios. And since there's consumer resistance, the half-season sets will eventually have to come down in price to unload the inventory. At which point I'll be a buyer.

(BV season 2 volume 1 is currently a buck more than the complete season 1 on Amazon.)
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post #55 of 61
1/1/08 at 8:03am

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane Alford
I've never watched The Fugitive, but I'm pretty sure it was in demand, so what's the excuse for splitting it up?
But there's only a demand among fans of the show. In the case of The Fugitive, it has rarely played on TV in the last decade (so not many people have gotten into the show via reruns) and while it's a great show and was a very popular series when it ran, those same people that watched it 40 years ago aren't all going out to buy it. Paramount is making more money off the volumes but I'll happily spend more to get something rather than save $20 and have them stop halfway through the run of the series because they don't think it's selling well enough to keep season sets going.

I've said it before but if they're only splitting the seasons to get more money out of consumers, why wouldn't they split current shows up too? They far outsell older shows so splitting those sets is alot more profiatble than splitting something that doesn't sell as well.
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post #56 of 61
1/1/08 at 8:58am

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

There doesn't seem to be any consistancy to what the studios are doing.
If 'X' % of the people around in the '60's watched the 'Fugitive', and say 10% of those viewers (that are still around) want to buy it on DVD, doesn't the studio already have a rough idea about how many people will buy this? They already know their age (baby-boomers) and know their relative income?

All of that flies in the face of any Star Trek fan. Talk about milking the public - and those seasons weren't split (The first run of TOS DVD's being the exception here).

Ya think somebody made way too much profit on them?

...and finally, why doesn't the 'extra' (and I use that word loosely) money made on the profitable releases get used to bring out the 'not so profitable' movies and series'?

Glenn
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post #57 of 61
1/1/08 at 9:37am

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Overholt
...and finally, why doesn't the 'extra' (and I use that word loosely) money made on the profitable releases get used to bring out the 'not so profitable' movies and series'?

Because studios don't think like that, and it's hard to explain to Boards of Directors that it's OK to lose money on certain titles because of how much they made on others.
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post #58 of 61
1/1/08 at 10:24am
Thread Starter 

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane Alford
My guess is they wanted to see which sold more. I'd be willing to bet the complete first season sold more.

That's an option and probably the case for The Fall Guy (since they were both released at the same time) Hower for other shows, studios aren't willing to take that chance with full season older shows.
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post #59 of 61
1/1/08 at 10:48am
Thread Starter 

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Overholt
There doesn't seem to be any consistancy to what the studios are doing.
If 'X' % of the people around in the '60's watched the 'Fugitive', and say 10% of those viewers (that are still around) want to buy it on DVD, doesn't the studio already have a rough idea about how many people will buy this? They already know their age (baby-boomers) and know their relative income?
Glenn

Marketing departments really need to start from scratch on this. They can use that initial audience numbers for marketing purposes when promoting the series (Originally watched by x-million viewers), but they need to get more of a sure-fire accurate reading since the TV landscape and buying habits have changed so much.
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post #60 of 61
1/1/08 at 10:53am
Thread Starter 

Re: Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by docdoowop
It's certainly backfired on the studios. And since there's consumer resistance, the half-season sets will eventually have to come down in price to unload the inventory.

At least with BV I don't think it's consumer resistance. I just don't think many people of the average public care about the show.

I'm sure they're trying to make up on a shortfall for season 1 losses.
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