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Christmas Rant

post #1 of 43
12/24/07 at 7:33pm
Thread Starter 
I know it's Christmas time and one should have a sense of peace and good will, but:

How can Sony offer a Blu-ray disc, e.g. Resident Evil: Extinction with its PIP, etc., while having no player in their line that is BD-J version 1.1 compliant and can take advantage of this feature?

Does this mean that I'll have to spend $500. on a Panasonic 30 or $2,000 on a Denon 3800 to take advantage of 1.1's features and even these players have no ethernet port?

Why is it that no Blu-ray players (that I could find) have an ethernet port? I take that back as the PS3 does have an ethernet port and, I believe, offering a FW upgrade to 1.1. I just don't want a game console.

When are these nitwits on the Blu-ray standards committee going to get their act together and agree on a set of standards similar to the way the HD camp did?

This whole scenario is getting quite frustrating (not to mention expensive) and I'm seriously thinking of going HD exclusively and abandoning Blu-ray altogether.

Sorry for the rant on this wonderful time of the year and perhaps I may be overreacting a bit but I've about had it with the BD b.s.
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post #2 of 43
12/24/07 at 9:25pm

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Vautrinot
Why is it that no Blu-ray players (that I could find) have an ethernet port? I take that back as the PS3 does have an ethernet port and, I believe, offering a FW upgrade to 1.1. I just don't want a game console.
you are right the PS3 is now 1.1 compliant

the "I don't want a game console" is a rediculous statement.... if so don't use it for games and enjoy one of the best if not best BD players on the market

I never wanted another cd player but the last few dvd players I bought all had the ability to play cds
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post #3 of 43
12/25/07 at 11:43am

Re: Christmas Rant

Not really over reacting your rant is the EXACT reason I have waited to get blu-ray (I got a Panny 10a which is only 1.0.. ICK!!) But I will only purchase Sony, Fox and their subsidiaries for Blu-ray.

Disney will go neutral this next year so no worries there, I will wait until I can watch Disney movies on HD DVD with the special features as they were intended to be watched on a player FULLY capable of playing them.
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post #4 of 43
12/25/07 at 12:41pm

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super_E
Disney will go neutral this next year so no worries there, I will wait until I can watch Disney movies on HD DVD with the special features as they were intended to be watched on a player FULLY capable of playing them.
This is a statement that you have made earlier too and with such confidence as if you had just gotten back from a press release by Disney stating the same. Obviously you know something that even the management at Disney does not know.
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post #5 of 43
12/25/07 at 6:28pm

Re: Christmas Rant

I think your rant is a bit unfounded really. If you are going to rant, atleast make sure you have your facts straight.

Quote:
while having no player in their line that is BD-J version 1.1 compliant and can take advantage of this feature?
The Panasonic 30 is currently 1.1 and the Samsung Uni-player will be. The PS3 is of course 1.1 compliant now.

Does the ethernet port really matter much? You can download and burn firmware updates and 1.1 doesn't allow for web based activities anyway. I personally find the web based stuff to be a joke but so be it.

The 30 is a great player and so is the PS3. I know plenty of folks that don't game on their PS3 and strictly play BR movies and use the media center functionality of it.
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post #6 of 43
12/25/07 at 9:01pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Christmas Rant

Shane,

My facts are straight. I stated that SONY had no 1.1 Blu-ray player in their line and then recanted as I realized that the PS3 can now be had 1.1 compliant. I also mentioned the Panasonic 30 and the Denon 3800. It just amazes me that Sony can release a Blu-ray DVD with 1.1 features and, other than the PS3, have no machine to take advantage of it. That's like Ford offering wheels that don't need lug nuts but having no vehicle in their line that can mount them.

I've had an S300 Sony player since October and already have had to have Sony send me 2 firmware upgrades. The average consumer (I shy away from the J6P term) isn't going to put up with this when their latest DVD's won't work. Sony and the Blu-ray boys had better get it together soon or they may find themselves left in the dust. Do they remember Betamax?

I can't download the FW upgrades as I use a Mac only and have to rely upon Sony sending me the disc by mail. But, then again I'm not a techno wizard when it comes to this stuff so that's ok. I agree that an ethernet port isn't a big deal for me and can live without it at least for now but who knows what the future will bring. It certainly might make FW upgrades easier since they seem to be coming almost on a bi-weekly basis as of late.

I'll keep hanging in there a little longer but right now Blu-ray, and Sony in particular, appear to be floundering in a sea of indecision and falling behind in movement, progress, and development and cannot keep pace with the other format. Hopefully, this will change very, very soon.
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post #7 of 43
12/26/07 at 5:47am

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
I've had an S300 Sony player since October and already have had to have Sony send me 2 firmware upgrades. The average consumer (I shy away from the J6P term) isn't going to put up with this when their latest DVD's won't work. Sony and the Blu-ray boys had better get it together soon or they may find themselves left in the dust. Do they remember Betamax?
HD DVD has the same problem as well. With the way electronics are today, I highly doubt it will change much.
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post #8 of 43
12/26/07 at 6:59am
Thread Starter 

Re: Christmas Rant

So I understand and you're probably right.

At least HD set some standards and it's now up to the player manufacturers to comply. Blu-ray needs to do the same. Perhaps they have, to some degree, but the players haven't kept pace (apparently in both camps).

Well, I'm off to see if I can get a deal on a Panasonic 30.
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post #9 of 43
12/26/07 at 7:16am

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
HD DVD has the same problem as well.

Not quite, Shane. It is true that both systems have required periodic firmware upgrades. (Unlike Brad, I think this is a good thing that hardware/firmware combos CAN be upgraded these days.) However, Brad's original post is about the inability of Blu-ray to finalize the hardware and system software configuration for over a year and HD DVD does NOT have that problem. The HD DVD hardware spec has been finalized from the day the first player was released. But you already knew that.

Like Super E, the unsettled Blu-ray spec is the primary reason I haven't gone with a Blu-ray player. I think they've been playing fast and loose with customer trust and have been misleading about their hardware platform. I know this is OLD, OOOOOLD news; however, I needed to toss my two cents and and affirm that Brad's "rant" is far from unfounded.
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post #10 of 43
12/26/07 at 7:42am

Re: Christmas Rant

I think the issue of finalizing specs is probably more a philosophical matter than people might want to admit. If I understand correctly, the extra stuff that comes w/ the newer specs (for BD) aren't exactly required for (nor follows from) the traditional HT cinema experience. Considering what they are and how the relevant technologies (and technology in general) and their uses have evolved (and continue to evolve), I'm not so sure it's actually so great to have the specs locked down forever right from the get-go, if ever at all, since it seems like these HD formats (or possibly an eventual hybrid) will likely be the final A/V formats for a very long time to come.

Who knows? Maybe we'll find the HD-DVD approach to be too restrictive a few years from now. OTOH, depending on how one looks at it, one might argue that HD-DVD is just some sort of new generation/revision of the old DVD spec that they never truly finalized. And if that's the case, why begrudge BD for not finalizing their specs right from the get-go?

Personally, I think the finalizing specs issue is rather moot as long as nothing gets broken or lost as a result of specs enhancements, etc. While the average consumer will not like to deal w/ firmware updates and player instabilities (of the true defect variety), I kinda doubt he/she would worry too much about missing out on features like PiP for the near term. Besides, neither format is really all that ready to entice the average consumer anyway...

_Man_
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post #11 of 43
12/26/07 at 8:16am

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatS
you are right the PS3 is now 1.1 compliant

the "I don't want a game console" is a rediculous statement.... if so don't use it for games and enjoy one of the best if not best BD players on the market

I never wanted another cd player but the last few dvd players I bought all had the ability to play cds

I agree with MatS. I have the PS3, own one game for it, and it's still in the wrapper, while I own about 20-25 Blu Ray disc. The PS3 has been flawless in every BR movie viewed.
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post #12 of 43
12/26/07 at 9:01am

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
Maybe we'll find the HD-DVD approach to be too restrictive a few years from now. OTOH, depending on how one looks at it, one might argue that HD-DVD is just some sort of new generation/revision of the old DVD spec that they never truly finalized. And if that's the case, why begrudge BD for not finalizing their specs right from the get-go?
Well, it's not as if the Profile 1.1/2.0 enhancements are new things that the BD group decided upon later; they're things that were in plans from the start but which they opted to make optional for a year and a half because it would just be too onerous to include in their first-generation players, despite those players costing twice as much as the HD-DVD players which did include them.

(Why yes, I am bitter about not being able to view the picture-in-picture commentary on Sunshine and 3:10 to Yuma next month; how could you tell?)

I'm sure other optional features will be made available for both formats, much like DTS processing (for instance) isn't in the spec but wound up included on almost every standard DVD player in time. But the BD profile 1.0/1.1/2.0 thing is the equivalent of holding back completed features for a later Special Edition release, and I've yet to meet someone who liked that.
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post #13 of 43
12/26/07 at 9:13am

Re: Christmas Rant

Yeah, who the hell wants to double-dip on HDM players if it's an avoidable situation with proper planning and execution?
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post #14 of 43
12/26/07 at 11:18am

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Sun
Yeah, who the hell wants to double-dip on HDM players if it's an avoidable situation with proper planning and execution?

True that. And that's partly why I've held out until now and will be picking up a PS3 later today. Still, there will be no effective avoiding of double/triple/etc-dipping on players if the history of such things is any indication. If both formats survive, you'll inevitably want a uni-player at some point, and these things aren't built like they used to be nowadays either -- well, I certainly don't expect one to last me 10+ years like a good CD player back in the day.

_Man_
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post #15 of 43
12/26/07 at 12:30pm

Re: Christmas Rant

Hey now, I finally retired my venerable Panasonic RP-91 this fall after getting the Purple treatment from the HD Player Fairy (courtesy of the HTF-EMA trip this summer). That RP-91 has lasted at least 8 years and it still works (now the bedroom DVD player). I never had the urge to upgrade it until the new HDTV flatscreen sets became more affordable.
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post #16 of 43
12/26/07 at 4:16pm

Re: Christmas Rant

Hmmm... Maybe the lack of durability w/ my DVD players has something to do w/ having a family w/ kids. The kids definitely do put more wear on the players than I do, and my Philips 963 DVD/SACD unit died prematurely (after ~3.5 years) because one of them broke the disc tray. I guess it'll be good to have a PS3 handle the bulk of the video workload going forward while my 1-yo Denon SD uni-player handles mainly audio-only playback -- maybe it'll actually last 10+ years that way. I gave my first (soon-to-be 10-yo) DVD player, a Toshiba, to my mother long before the kids could put a lot of wear on it. Not sure if it still works all that well now, but I think she still uses it on occasion though she probably logged less time on it in 7+ years than my kids do in 6 months.

_Man_
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post #17 of 43
12/26/07 at 6:57pm

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanjay Gupta
This is a statement that you have made earlier too and with such confidence as if you had just gotten back from a press release by Disney stating the same. Obviously you know something that even the management at Disney does not know.

Nope just very very confident due to their tactics the last year. And also due to the amount of HD Player that have sold this season, Disney has consistently and without question always referred to "High Definition Media" Never blu-ray when they speak at press conferences.. They are smart business people who are leaving the door open for HD DVD and will walk through that door in 08.

You question me like you have been to a board meeting and know that it isn't happening...

I have been DEEP in this war since 2004 watching sides change and watching things happen... This is something I have foreseen for sometime and it will come to fruition in 2008. Disney wanted to see what the PS3 would do and see who they would fare with only going with the side with the larger content ability... Since their vote for the 51GB HD DVD disc I see little reason to keep pretending that they are not going HD DVD in the new year.

Remember I do own both but I have a strong predilection towards HD DVD, no question.
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post #18 of 43
12/26/07 at 8:00pm

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Sun
Yeah, who the hell wants to double-dip on HDM players if it's an avoidable situation with proper planning and execution?
Who the hell buys into a format without actually being informed and knowing that without said standardization in place they would be forced to double dip in the future? Oh that's right - the (usually) impatient early adopter.

I apologize, but I can't bring myself to feel sorry for anyone that bought an early Blu-Ray playback device without actually having any knowledge of the non-standardized nature of the hardware (no ethernet port, no dual video decoder, no persistent storage). It's not as though any of it was kept as some deep dark secret and the lack of hardware standardization is old, old news as mentioned.

So yes, while I agree that it most certainly was a ridiculous situation at the launch of the Blu-Ray format to not have such things standardized while the competing format had gotten thier shit together at half the price - it most certainly falls on the lap of the consumer to know what he or she is buying into and make informed buying decisions based on that information.

If you're not happy with the hardware situation, simply don't buy a player at the moment or at all until the hardware meets your particular expectations.
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post #19 of 43
12/26/07 at 9:28pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
Who the hell buys into a format without actually being informed and knowing that without said standardization in place they would be forced to double dip in the future? Oh that's right - the (usually) impatient early adopter.
Just the average techno ignorant consumer who is taken in by the glitzy t.v. ads that mention nothing about the lack of 1.1/2.0 compliance, the likely need for FW upgrades on a regular basis, etc., etc. Rest assured that most salespeople won't mention any of this to a customer. Been there, done that.

"...It's a testament to the trouble Sony is in right now that one of the cheaper and more effective Blu-Ray players is the PS3. Sad how it costs less than most of the Blu-Ray players out there, and it can update to pretty much all of the new profiles... I feel bad for all the people who dished out 500 plus for their Blu-Ray players that can't update... Why would people want to invest in a player that might not be able to play movies that come out in 3-4 months..."

I'm asking myself the same question.

Quote:
If you're not happy with the hardware situation, simply don't buy a player at the moment or at all until the hardware meets your particular expectations.
At the rate they're going (Blu-ray) I'll be in a nursing home first.
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post #20 of 43
12/27/07 at 1:26am

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Vautrinot
Just the average techno ignorant consumer who is taken in by the glitzy t.v. ads that mention nothing about the lack of 1.1/2.0 compliance, the likely need for FW upgrades on a regular basis, etc., etc. Rest assured that most salespeople won't mention any of this to a customer. Been there, done that.

You keep bringing this up, but honestly, I don't really see that "average techno ignorant consumer" caring about the extra stuff that needs >=1.1 profile. They are far more likely to care about playback defects/problems in the traditional movie experience itself, and w/ that, I don't see the HDD side being any better. Most people I know don't even touch the extra features on SD DVDs -- and most of them are not exactly "techno ignorant" either, but just have vastly different priorities than most HT enthusiasts.

Besides, didn't Warner already figure out a decent workaround for at least one of those extra features, ie. PiP commentary, w/ the recent release of T3? It's not ideal, but sounds like it should be quite workable most of the time, especially since BD has the extra space to handle it if done right.

Quote:
"Why would people want to invest in a player that might not be able to play movies that come out in 3-4 months..."

And who said 1.1 or 2.0 titles won't play in older players? I thought the only thing that won't work are the extra stuff that requires the higher specs. Everything else should still work the same. So if you buy a player knowing what it can and cannot do -- or simply don't care about the extra stuff -- then you should be fine.

Of course, it's certainly possible that there will be some unforseen glitches that need to be resolved (via firmware update or whatever) for the older players when playing 1.1/2.0 titles. But that seems to be something that comes w/ the territory no matter which format you choose -- even the old SD format had problems w/ older players handling stuff like dual layer discs during the early years.

Time will tell...

_Man_
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post #21 of 43
12/27/07 at 5:27am

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
"Why would people want to invest in a player that might not be able to play movies that come out in 3-4 months..."
This is false. It's already been stated that movies with Profile 1.1 on them will play in older players. They showed how it would work at the various sites that have the first PiP titles on hand. Essentially it's just a different menu because the disc doesn't detect a profile 1.1 player.

For me I just couldn't live with SD any longer. Once you go HD, you don't go back. I couldn't just live with the limited titles HD DVD has so I went purple and now I can enjoy the movies in HD regardless of who wins.
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post #22 of 43
12/27/07 at 6:54am

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Vautrinot
I can't download the FW upgrades as I use a Mac only and have to rely upon Sony sending me the disc by mail.

You do realize that even though it's an .exe file you can uncompress the Sony firmware file on a Mac using Stuffit? I have a Mac and recently updated the firmware for my Panasonic BD30 this way. Try it and if you have any questions let me know and I'll step you through the process.
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post #23 of 43
12/27/07 at 7:29am

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romier S
Who the hell buys into a format without actually being informed and knowing that without said standardization in place they would be forced to double dip in the future? Oh that's right - the (usually) impatient early adopter.

I apologize, but I can't bring myself to feel sorry for anyone that bought an early Blu-Ray playback device without actually having any knowledge of the non-standardized nature of the hardware (no ethernet port, no dual video decoder, no persistent storage). It's not as though any of it was kept as some deep dark secret and the lack of hardware standardization is old, old news as mentioned.
Well, I don't think we're exactly asking for your pity. I seem to remember Sony/Samsung/etc. being very vague about whether profile 1.1 things would require hardware or firmware upgrades when I bought my player, though. In any case, the fact that I strongly suspected I'd get hosed on this a year ago doesn't make it much less annoying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
You keep bringing this up, but honestly, I don't really see that "average techno ignorant consumer" caring about the extra stuff that needs >=1.1 profile.
Not until he or she can't have it. For what it's worth, the people who have tried the advanced features on HD-DVD generally enjoy them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Vautrinot
Rest assured that most salespeople won't mention any of this to a customer. Been there, done that.
Hell, I had a hard enough time explaining the various BD profiles to my family members who were impressed by the picture this Christmas and wanted to know what they should look for. It's needlessly confusing, and could have been avoided if the BDA had had their crap together a year and a half ago.
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post #24 of 43
12/27/07 at 7:54am
Thread Starter 

Re: Christmas Rant

Thanks everyone for all the replies some of which have given me food for thought. Rant over.

Just one question. Since the Denon 3800 is still unavailable (and quite expensive) are there any opinions here regarding the Panasonic BD30K and for HD-DVD, the Toshiba HD-A35? Thanks.
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post #25 of 43
12/27/07 at 8:04am

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Vautrinot
Thanks everyone for all the replies some of which have given me food for thought. Rant over.

Just one question. Since the Denon 3800 is still unavailable (and quite expensive) are there any opinions here regarding the Panasonic BD30K and for HD-DVD, the Toshiba HD-A35? Thanks.

I have the BD30K and it's a fantastic machine. With the recent 1.3 firmware it loads as fast as my PS3. I have yet to find a movie it won't play. The only minus is no ethernet port, but it was fairly easy to burn a firmware CD. Plus it's profile 1.1 if it matters. IMO, it's the best standalone Blu-ray player out there.
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post #26 of 43
12/27/07 at 9:41am
Thread Starter 

Re: Christmas Rant

Thanks, Todd

Yes, I can download the .EXE files to my Mac but then what do I do with them? I know I have to burn them to a CD (is a CD ok or do I need to use a DVD). I read somewhere that it has to be burned to an ISO disc or format but I have no idea what that is or what software I need to make one.

Brad
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post #27 of 43
12/27/07 at 10:01am

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Vautrinot
Thanks, Todd

Yes, I can download the .EXE files to my Mac but then what do I do with them? I know I have to burn them to a CD (is a CD ok or do I need to use a DVD). I read somewhere that it has to be burned to an ISO disc or format but I have no idea what that is or what software I need to make one.

Brad

To burn the BDP-S300 firmware on a Mac, do the following...

If you have Stuffit Expander installed (if not you can download it for free), just right click (or control-click if you have a one button mouse) on the downloaded file, go to Open With and choose Stuffit Expander. There will be a warning about opening the .exe file but ignore the warning and uncompress anyway. That will uncompress the file and give you UPDATE_BDPS300_VER0370.ISO. To burn this file as an image, you can do it in Toast (if you have it installed) or in disk utility using the instructions on the following page...

Burning a disk image file on a CD or DVD in Mac OS X

You need to burn the disc onto a cd and not a dvd.
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post #28 of 43
12/27/07 at 10:31am

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Vautrinot
I know it's Christmas time and one should have a sense of peace and good will, but:

How can Sony offer a Blu-ray disc, e.g. Resident Evil: Extinction with its PIP, etc., while having no player in their line that is BD-J version 1.1 compliant and can take advantage of this feature?

Does this mean that I'll have to spend $500. on a Panasonic 30 or $2,000 on a Denon 3800 to take advantage of 1.1's features and even these players have no ethernet port?

Why is it that no Blu-ray players (that I could find) have an ethernet port? I take that back as the PS3 does have an ethernet port and, I believe, offering a FW upgrade to 1.1. I just don't want a game console.

When are these nitwits on the Blu-ray standards committee going to get their act together and agree on a set of standards similar to the way the HD camp did?

This whole scenario is getting quite frustrating (not to mention expensive) and I'm seriously thinking of going HD exclusively and abandoning Blu-ray altogether.

Sorry for the rant on this wonderful time of the year and perhaps I may be overreacting a bit but I've about had it with the BD b.s.
the ps3 blu ray is one of the best on the market
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post #29 of 43
12/27/07 at 12:05pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Christmas Rant

Todd H, Thanks so much for the help.

Todd Stone, I've heard a lot of folks say that.

Brad
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post #30 of 43
12/27/07 at 12:49pm

Re: Christmas Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
I think the issue of finalizing specs is probably more a philosophical matter than people might want to admit. If I understand correctly, the extra stuff that comes w/ the newer specs (for BD) aren't exactly required for (nor follows from) the traditional HT cinema experience. Considering what they are and how the relevant technologies (and technology in general) and their uses have evolved (and continue to evolve), I'm not so sure it's actually so great to have the specs locked down forever right from the get-go, if ever at all, since it seems like these HD formats (or possibly an eventual hybrid) will likely be the final A/V formats for a very long time to come.

Who knows? Maybe we'll find the HD-DVD approach to be too restrictive a few years from now. OTOH, depending on how one looks at it, one might argue that HD-DVD is just some sort of new generation/revision of the old DVD spec that they never truly finalized. And if that's the case, why begrudge BD for not finalizing their specs right from the get-go?

Personally, I think the finalizing specs issue is rather moot as long as nothing gets broken or lost as a result of specs enhancements, etc. While the average consumer will not like to deal w/ firmware updates and player instabilities (of the true defect variety), I kinda doubt he/she would worry too much about missing out on features like PiP for the near term. Besides, neither format is really all that ready to entice the average consumer anyway...

_Man_

The problem with not having the specs locked is that someone like me, who bought a player a year ago will not be able to take advantage of those new features. Every time they add something new, they are going to alienate part of their install base, and annoy people like me who actually like the special features.

As it is at this point I only buy a blu-ray when I can't get it on HD DVD because I know that everything on the HD DVD is going to work on my 1st gen player. I can't say the same thing of my 1st gen blu-ray player.

Doug
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