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post #31 of 84
12/13/07 at 2:28pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by redbird
If colorization brings more black and white shows to DVD then I'm in favor of it. I don't like colorization but some of those older shows really need to get to DVD. I'd buy such DVD's and just turn off the color on my TV-I do that everytime I watch the second season of "Bewitched" anyway.
This is exactly how I feel. I'm astonished that anyone would say "I'd never buy it if it was colorized." You'd rather it be shelved forever than to be released in color? I say if it would motivate the studios to put out the product, I'm all for it. It's easy enough to turn off the color on your set if you want to watch it in black and white. Personally I don't care if it's b&w or color as long as it's available.
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post #32 of 84
12/13/07 at 2:41pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elena S
It's easy enough to turn off the color on your set if you want to watch it in black and white.

It's easy enough to throw on a pair of red-and-blue 3-D glasses to make black and white movies and TV shows look like they're in color. As an added bonus, it looks just as good as colorization and is less expensive too!
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post #33 of 84
12/13/07 at 2:41pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Colorization alters the contrast. Turning the color/chroma on your set to zero will not restore it to the original, just present a desaturated version of the colorization. If it's not available in its original form it's not available as far as I am concerned. That's the same attitude I take towards editing of TV shows. Why are people willing to compromise this so they can "have it"? Having it in an altered form or not having it at all is a false dichotomy.

People who are not going to buy Father Knows Best in B&W will probably not buy it in color.
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post #34 of 84
12/13/07 at 2:49pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD_Brian
It's easy enough to throw on a pair of red-and-blue 3-D glasses to make black and white movies and TV shows look like they're in color. As an added bonus, it looks just as good as colorization and is less expensive too!
Well, that's not true. I bought the colorized "Bewitched" episodes just because I wanted to see what they would look like, and the color was simply outstanding. You couldn't tell they weren't filmed that way. And I watched the first two seasons in black and white like everybody else. It's not an issue to me unless the colorization is horrid.
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post #35 of 84
12/13/07 at 2:58pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

I won't support any color releases of a classic B&W series, and my most-requested, The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis (and licensing rights issue aside), better not come out colorized. Dobie in front of Rodin's Thinker is meant to be seen in black and white. Colorization is not the answer; licensing these series to independent companies is (though that's often easier said than done).

And "I Love Lucy's" episode in the complete series set is a rare exception that doesn't need to imply to every B&W series (no disrespect intended to Legend Films or Charles who started this thread).
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post #36 of 84
12/13/07 at 3:02pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

You know, these guys and gals screaming for colorization versions of classic black and white programs, without getting verbal about it, are probably the same ones who are satisfied with edited content and edited music.

If it was produced in black and white it doesn't deserve to be colorized.
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post #37 of 84
12/13/07 at 3:30pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elena S
I bought the colorized "Bewitched" episodes just because I wanted to see what they would look like, and the color was simply outstanding.

I will freely admit that my prejudice against colorization has probably blinded me to the technological advancements made in the field since Ted Turner first unleashed this cinematic abomination on the movie-loving public back in the 1980's.

To each their own, I guess, but the notion that people actually prefer colorization has the same fingernails-on-the-blackboard effect on my psyche as when I hear people asking where the pan-and-scan copies are in the video store.

Today's colorization techniques may be amazing but I just can't bring myself to knowingly watch a colorized show. As Jules (Samuel L. Jackson) said in Pulp Fiction, "Sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie but I wouldn't know cause I'd never eat the filthy motherf-er."
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post #38 of 84
12/13/07 at 4:40pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
"Sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie but I wouldn't know cause I'd never eat the filthy motherf-er."

Using this quote I would say that faced with a choice between starving to death (show not released at all) or eating sewer rat (colorized show), I would eat the rat.
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post #39 of 84
12/13/07 at 4:45pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey3rd
There are plenty of shows that lost their edge when they went color. Andy Griffith Show being a perfect example. Or Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.

I agree. Dark Shadows for example. I think the show had much more 'atmosphere' to it when it was in B&W. It really lost that spooky quality when it went to color.

As for colorization of TV. No. I'm against it and I won't support it. I bought seasons 1 and 2 of Bewitched in B&W because they were in B&W. I'm so glad Warner didn't give folks a choice with season 1 of Gilligan's Island. You either bought it in B&W or you didn't buy it at all.
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post #40 of 84
12/13/07 at 4:46pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-S
Using this quote I would say that faced with a choice between starving to death (show not released at all) or eating sewer rat (colorized show), I would eat the rat.


Bon Appetit!
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post #41 of 84
12/13/07 at 4:48pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-S
Using this quote I would say that faced with a choice between starving to death (show not released at all) or eating sewer rat (colorized show), I would eat the rat.
Except that, you know, there's an entire buffet of yummy things to eat, so one need not resort to sewer rats for sustenance.

(Are we about done with this metaphor now?)
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post #42 of 84
12/13/07 at 6:36pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
People who are not going to buy Father Knows Best in B&W will probably not buy it in color.

Bingo. A show will either sell or not sell based on how popular it is with the marketplace. A series or movie should stand on its own merits. Vulgar and unnecessary tweaks such as colorization are just as wrong as changing the actual content via edits or other means. The Bewitched/Jeannie sales was probably skewed because of availability in the marketplace and the fact the colorized boxes didn't really disclose the fact they weren't as originally presented.

Sony tried to colorize the Stooges shorts and by most accounts this was a complete failure. Fans revolted and it didn't matter how "pretty" the prints were. Consumers are generally intelligent enough to choose substance over style.

If companies like Legend Films and their counterparts really want to do some good in the long run, they should drop colorization and focus on film restoration or preservation. There are plenty of worthwhile films and TV shows that are in danger of being lost to the ages if action is not taken.
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post #43 of 84
12/13/07 at 6:51pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

I am starting to feel really old. The colorization issue was debated and settled as a disaster back in the 80's. People are still doing it?

And this is HTF. People refuse to buy DVDs because it is a syndicated cut or because it is panned and scanned, yet they believe people won't have a problem with colorization? A process that fundamentally changes the film?

Just go back and read what Martin Scorsese or Orson Welles said about it 20 years ago. The issue is dead. Leave it buried.

If companies want to make money by selling inferior product to gullible consumers, we shouldn't encourage them.
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post #44 of 84
12/13/07 at 7:04pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

I don't support colorization of motion pictures, but will in some specific cases of television series: those that are not dependent on the B&W photography for mood & effect and those that were done in B&W for budgetary reasons. Sidney Sheldon stated that he wanted the first season of I Dream of Jeannie to be in color, but NBC wouldn't pony up the bucks. Not a problem for me if it's colorized then. Same with early Hazel, or The Andy Griffith Show for example. I wouldn't support colorizing The Untouchables, however, since much of its mood comes from the photography. Hazel doesn't need to be "noir."

I'm not sure if it'll get more people to see the shows or not. If it does, I'm all for it in some instances.

I loved that Sony gave us a choice with Bewitched and IDOJ (and yes, the B&W sets were readily available through just about every online store; no one is forced to accept what's stocked in a brick & morter store anymore), but I doubt that can be cost effective for most series.

It's hardly the same as removing or substituting content. And I bet there are many people who have bought older films on DVD that have had their soundtracks remastered in 5.1 which may or may not be what the original sound man's artistic intent was.
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post #45 of 84
12/13/07 at 8:18pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Creating stereo for a movie that was in mono should only be considered if multichannel score tracks exist to mix with dialogue and effects. Otherwise, leave it, and do not try to create fake stereo out of monaural sources.
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post #46 of 84
12/13/07 at 9:16pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMor
..... Hazel doesn't need to be "noir."

Wow...that hurt my brain.

"Excuse me Mr. B. There are a couple of men here to see you and they don't look very friendly if you ask me"
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post #47 of 84
12/14/07 at 2:23am

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMor
I don't support colorization of motion pictures, but will in some specific cases of television series: those that are not dependent on the B&W photography for mood & effect and those that were done in B&W for budgetary reasons. Sidney Sheldon stated that he wanted the first season of I Dream of Jeannie to be in color, but NBC wouldn't pony up the bucks. Not a problem for me if it's colorized then. Same with early Hazel, or The Andy Griffith Show for example. I wouldn't support colorizing The Untouchables, however, since much of its mood comes from the photography. Hazel doesn't need to be "noir."

The fact remains that a decision was made, be it by the network or studio, that a project would be done in black & white. Don't you think that the craftsmen of the day did their best to make those shows look their best in that black & white medium? Even moreso because they might be competing in the marketplace with color material?

No, neither HAZEL nor ANDY GRIFFITH were "film-noir", but the cameramen, lighting techs, and cinematographers of the day who worked on them weren't just giving up because someday someone would alter their work with crayons. They worked just as hard doing their jobs to make those black & white films shine, and it's a shame that anyone would want to throw their hard work away just because "it's prettier and more modern" in color.

Again, it's fine with me (but a shame) if someone wants to do that to THEIR filmed material - just leave mine alone and in its original form.

I feel the same way about original soundtracks. Do all you want to the soundtrack to provide stereo, surround, gimmicks, whatever - just provide the original soundtrack in its cleanest form for me to enjoy. The technology of DVD (heck, even VHS!) allows that, so provide multiple soundtracks if it's felt that an enhanced version is warrented. I promise you that I'll opt for the original every time.

Harry
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post #48 of 84
12/14/07 at 6:11am

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD_Brian
That's not actually true. There were many directors who chose not to shoot in Technicolor because the colors, particularly in the 3-strip age, were too bright and did not suit the natures of the dramatic stories they were trying to tell. As the years went on and cinematographers learned to better control the color pallette, more dramatic filmmakers were willing to film in color.

That's right. You also have to remember that you needed a lot more light to film in Technicolor. The bright lights brought out all the detail and vivid colors of the clothes and sets, but lost all the shadows and any "mood" created when using B&W photography.

You can't slap color on a film that was lit for B&W. It just won't look right.

And to keep on topic, I am also in the camp that would never buy a colorized version of a B&W filmed TV show.
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post #49 of 84
12/14/07 at 7:31am

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMor

It's hardly the same as removing or substituting content.

In a way, I think it is worse. If you are removing content, at least what is left remains the way it was shot and not changed.

Yes, colorizing a sitcom isn't the same as colorizing CITIZEN KANE, but it should never be accepted by anyone with any knowledge of the medium.
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post #50 of 84
12/14/07 at 9:03am

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Actually, wouldn't it be somewhat expensive to colorize a black and white show? If that's the case then studios would have no reason to colorize unless they charge a higher than average price for a show. Seems like the buyer gets shafted one way or another-a doctored show, a doctored show that's more expensive than it would be had it been left in black and white or no show on DVD at all.
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post #51 of 84
12/14/07 at 11:44am

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-S

I still think that "Bewitched" was only in B&W for cost reasons, not due to artistic choice.

This might be true - of the 3 networks, ABC was the slowest to make the switch to color due to costs.

In fact, they didn't switch their Daytime shows to color till 1967! Long after NBC and CBS did!
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post #52 of 84
12/14/07 at 11:51am

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

I'm pro-colorization for shows that started in B&W and switched to color.

As I've posted before, the Colorized "Bewitched" WORKED as the sets and costumes where the same in season 3 (First year color) as seasons 1 & 2
(B&W) and were eazy to match the colors and look perfectly.

While the Colorized "I Dream of Jeannie" looked good - the sets,costumes and general feel of season 1 was different than season 2 - but give them credit,they did the best they could to 'match' the look.

Colorization has improved by leaps and bounds even since these two shows were colorized - and these looked great!

But, do the studios WANT to spend the money to colorized old B&W TV Shows when they have newer color product all they have to do is remaster and release.
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post #53 of 84
12/14/07 at 12:32pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey3rd
Once you colorize a scene, you can't merely turn down the color on your TV to watch it in black and white. The contrasts have been completely altered.

I wouldn't want to watch The Untouchables in color. Robert Stack looks best in Black and white.

There are plenty of shows that lost their edge when they went color. Andy Griffith Show being a perfect example. Or Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.


Corey - Except for restoration (dustbusting, scratch removal, film damage, splices, reel change holes, etc.), when Legend Films colorizes a film or television episode, the luminance values of the underlying image is totally untouched. During the transfer from 35mm film to high definition, the contrast is optimized for the black and white element and never compromised during the color design. The notion that colorization ruins the shadows and somehow alters the contrast was one of many misleading ideas perpetrated many years ago by a few critics that either had an agenda or were simply uniformed. Unfortunately such misinformation persists today, even with obvious examples such as "It's A Wonderful Life" which clearly dispute these notions.

.



.
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post #54 of 84
12/14/07 at 1:00pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD_Brian
For those who say all directors would have shot in color if only they could have, and in celebration of the latest re-release of "It's A Wonderful Life" (now in living COLOR!!), I submit a portion of Roger Ebert's Great Movie discussion off the Frank Capra classic. The article is from the early '90s so some of the references are a bit dated but Jimmy Stewart's statement at the end of the last paragraph is pretty interesting:

It's a Wonderful Life
Release Date: 1946

Roger Ebert

The best and worst things that ever happened to "It's a Wonderful Life" are that it fell out of copyright protection and into the shadowy no-man's-land of the public domain. Because the movie is no longer under copyright, any television station that can get its hands on a print of the movie can show it, at no cost, as often as it wants to. And that has led in the last decade to the rediscovery of Frank Capra's once-forgotten film, and its elevation into a Christmas tradition. PBS stations were the first to jump on the bandwagon in the early 1970s, using the saga of the small-town hero George Bailey as counter-programming against expensive network holiday specials. To the general amazement of TV program directors, the audience for the film grew and grew over the years, until now many families make the movie an annual ritual.

That was the best thing that happened to "It's a Wonderful Life," bringing cheer into the lives of director Frank Capra and star James Stewart, who both consider it their favorite film. The worst thing--which has inspired Stewart to testify before a congressional committee and Capra to issue a sickbed plea--is that the movie has been colorized. Movies in the public domain are so defenseless that you could cut one up to make ukulele picks, and who could legally prevent you? And so a garish colorized version--destroying the purity of the classic original black-and-white images--has been seen on cable, is available for local syndication and is sold on cassette.

It is a great irony that the colorized version has been copyrighted, and so many stations are paying a great deal for the rights to an inferior version of a movie that they could show for free in black and white. If I were a local television program director with taste and a love of movies, I would find out when my competitor was going to air his colorized version, and counter-program with the original black-and-white movie, patting myself on the back for a public service. Maybe it could be promoted with a clip of Jimmy Stewart telling Congress, in his inimitable way, "I tried to look at the colorized version, but I had to switch it off--it made me feel sick."

I agree with Jimmy. The first colorization of "It's A Wonderful Life" made me sick as well. Capra and Stewart weren't upset that it was colorized... only that it was colorized badly and that he (Capra) didn't have a piece of the action.

The movie was never considered a classic until it fell into public domain. Indeed, this is a prime example of the benefit that public domain brings to a creative work. When the film fell into public ownership (after Capra's well deserved copyright monopoly of the film expired), it became widely available and affordable. Every family owned a VHS recording of it and it was aired from Thanksgiving to Christmas on every channel all over the country. Watching the movie became a family tradition. This increased exposure made it the most beloved Holiday classic of all time.

Considering Capra was impressed with the look of the primitive analog process back in the mid 80's (as evidenced by his signed contract to colorize the film - per Michael Agee of Hal Roach Studios) I'm certain that he would be more than thrilled with the look of the colorized Holiday classic today.

.
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post #55 of 84
12/14/07 at 2:24pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Sandrew
I agree with Jimmy. The first colorization of "It's A Wonderful Life" made me sick as well. Capra and Stewart weren't upset that it was colorized... only that it was colorized badly and that he (Capra) didn't have a piece of the action...

...Considering Capra was impressed with the look of the primitive analog process back in the mid 80's (as evidenced by his signed contract to colorize the film - per Michael Agee of Hal Roach Studios) I'm certain that he would be more than thrilled with the look of the colorized Holiday classic today.

Uh huh. That explains why Stewart testified before Congress, asking for some kind of governmental protection against this kind of desecration: because he LOVED the idea, just not the result
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post #56 of 84
12/14/07 at 2:40pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

No matter how you look at it, colorizing a black and white series is, in fact, editing the program from the original and is the same as replacing the music or releasing a syndicated version of the show.
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post #57 of 84
12/14/07 at 5:10pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Sandrew
Corey - Except for restoration (dustbusting, scratch removal, film damage, splices, reel change holes, etc.), when Legend Films colorizes a film or television episode, the luminance values of the underlying image is totally untouched. During the transfer from 35mm film to high definition, the contrast is optimized for the black and white element and never compromised during the color design. The notion that colorization ruins the shadows and somehow alters the contrast was one of many misleading ideas perpetrated many years ago by a few critics that either had an agenda or were simply uniformed. Unfortunately such misinformation persists today, even with obvious examples such as "It's A Wonderful Life" which clearly dispute these notions.

.

Barry, so I'm supposed to believe that when you lay a "fleshtone" over a black and white actor's face and then I play that colorized scene on a black and white monitor, it will appear as the same gray level as the black and white original? What about the "stars" in the opening. will they be bright white on my black and white screen after they've been touched up by Legend? While Legend isn't using opaque paints for the color versions - the attitude that if I want to see it in black and white, i can just kill the color on my TV set and it'll be exactly the same does not hold up.

I've got the new version of It's A Wonderful Life. It does look nice, but that's only because this version tries its hardest to not fake it as a Technicolor print. But I just can't imagine the standard used on a 2 hour movie being kept up for 100 hours of a black and white show. We are talking about a business where the profit margins are thin enough that a major studio will hack off a song no matter what role it plays in the show.

On a flip note, the video masters used on my local Retro TV Network has a bad blur effect that makes the color Gomer Pyle episodes look as if they've been colorized.
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post #58 of 84
12/14/07 at 10:36pm

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

If colorizing it is what it takes for these studio knuckleheads to finally release some black and white shows then go for it.

I'd prefer it uncolorized but while I am more adamant about films being left in black and white, I'm not as put off by TV show colorization.

I suppose it is because I think that these shows were shot with the idea that they would be seen on low resolution TV sets that have a million different picture settings.

With that in mind I am sure the lighting and general photography is done with a "broader brush" and it will not be hurt by the grayscale variations that will remain when I turn off the color.

If the color is good enough, I will even watch that occasionally. But I will usually watch the show in it's original Black and White.

I did this for Bewitched when I couldn't find original Black and white in any store. I couldn't see any real difference between the black and white image of the dasaturated colorized version compared to my Columbia House videotapes (except that the DVD was vastly superior in resolution).

So, either the grayscale changes don't happen (at least in the modern way colorization is done) or they are miniscule enough to not offend my admitidaly untrained eye.

I should also point out that my older DVD player is such that it can supply a color signal to either composite/S-video or Component but not both at the same time. You can choose which connection you want to use in the menu and that is where the color signal is sent, the other connection gets grayscale. So, in order for me to achieve a black and white image on the colorized DVD I simply select composite/S-video while I watch the DVD over my Component connection and it saves me from messing with the TV settings.
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post #59 of 84
12/15/07 at 3:06am

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Rogers
I suppose it is because I think that these shows were shot with the idea that they would be seen on low resolution TV sets that have a million different picture settings.

Now THAT is an interesting point. We're talking about works generally designed to be seen on poorly calibrated television sets of the '60s. The ones that cut off the top, bottom, and sides of the picture with its round tube shape; the ones that often rolled, jittered and had snow from bad reception; the ones that had sharper focus in the center part of the picture and fuzzy-at-best focus near the edges; the ones where if you had a color TV, the black and white pictures looked kind of sepia-toned.

Granted that the display devices of the day certainly didn't do the pictures any justice. As such, the creators of those shows have been known to have taken liberties with things like strings that are now visible but weren't then. But they were also forced to USE the medium to its best - meaning that the lighting, set design, etc., all had to work within the limitations of the primitive TV sets out there.

I still prefer seeing the old shows the way they were meant to be seen (albeit on my own modern television capable of so much more than the '60s models).

Harry
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post #60 of 84
12/15/07 at 8:11am

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

People who are unwilling to watch B&W are not true fans of television or films. They're simply "consumers" who do not buy things based on quality. People like that are not going to buy an old film or television show regardless of whether it's colorized or not because they don't consider shows like that to be "hip" or "groovy".

And colorizing will also eliminate most of your true fans of these products as they do not want to see the original material bastardized in such a way. Why are people even still debating these things ? Wasn't it made blatantly clear when colorization first emerged that it is wildly unpopular among true fans as well as being horribly gaudy and distasteful ?

And why would any studio go to the trouble of colorizing an entire series on the off-chance that a few people might buy it that way ? Just clean-up the originals and release them properly, thank you very much.
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