Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

I respectfully disagree.

Colorization of B&W material is a guarantee I WON'T buy it.

It is an insult to the intelligence of film buffs everywhere to suggest that the film/show can't stand on its own merits. Warner, Fox, and some other studios have released a ton of classic films in recent years in their original glorious B&W and had great success doing so. Why should classic TV be any different?

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

I would not knowingly buy colorized product. I agree with Steve: there's nothing wrong with B&W.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

I would not buy any of these colorized and I imagine all the people that never heard of these will not be swayed by colorization. It is more than black and white, it is the fact that it is older and the way they are written and shot are different than what modern audiences are use to and they never had any exposure to it on tv in the first place. I do believe new people can like older programming, I do and I was born in 78 but there is no extra exposure. Colorization will not help these shows, it will only hurt it with fans of the material and turn off the curious unexposed.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

I'm with Steve as far as my personal feelings go. I am adamantly opposed to colorization for the same reason Steve is. It's an insult that I simply will not tolerate.

Unfortunately I do tend to agree with Charles on the issue of how the execs at the major studios view vintage TVonDVD. There's no doubt a studio like Sony is allergic to their b&w catalog and feel the need to colorize at every turn possible. It's sickening to me personally, but I do think Charles' hits the nail on the head as far as the problem goes. The TV divisions in most of these studios really don't have much faith in b&w tv, with Paramount being the one lone exception right now. And even in their case, we've got this split season thing becoming more popular with the older shows. Although that may be a ploy to milk us for more money. I don't know their reasoning behind such a decision.

And that brings me to Tory's post. Well said! The "big picture" problem with vintage tv in general is that the younger audience (which clearly constitutes the vast majority of dvd buyers) has had no exposure to these shows and consequently couldn't care less about them. They have been raised on a different type of television all together. Shows are shot differently (where the camera can't focus on one thing for more than a second or two). Shows are written differently (more sex, more profanity, more everything - except decency) and this is what young people want. This leaves out most anything done in the 50's and 60's. And colorizing isn't going to help the situation, IMHO. It's a losing battle all the way around, I'm sad to say.

Gary "feeling very much like a dinosaur even though I'm only 42" O.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

I have to agree with the majority that it sounds like a bad idea to me. I personally wouldn't knowing buy anything that was colorized. I really don't feel that it is the black and white image that push some people away... but the style in which the shows was made back then... and what was seen back then compared to now. I personally think that when someone says they won't watch black and white shows isn't actually because it is in black and white... just that they know what they show will be like style-wise... and that is what they don't want.

So in my eyes this sounds like something that not only wouldn't help bring new fans to the show... but would also push the old fans away.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

I happen to like colorized films. It is the only way I would watch some movies. For some reason I can't "get into" a movie in BW. I always feel like I am watching a movie. I am able to forget I am watching a movie when it is in color for the most part.

As long as the original B&W is preserved and given the same treatments, I don't get why people care there is a color version on the same disc. I can see the problem if only the color version was available, but as long as the viewer has a choice I say go for it. The more versions, the more potential viewers.

you can always turn your color down on your TV and watch everything in B&W... LOL

My last comment is that the whole sentiment about how the films or TV shows were filmed in B&W so that is how it was meant to be seen is bunk. With a few exceptions, I am sure that if they had color available to them at the same costs, these "classic" shows/movies would have been done in color. B&W was not really a choice made for artistic reasons by the director, it was either simply too expensive or color was not yet available to do it in color.

The notiion of wanting to only view a movie in B&W is like saying you should never watch a movie on TV because it was "meant" to be seen on a large screen and projected at 24 fps.

B&W has its place. But life is in color.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Well duh. They're a business. They'd probably colorize home movies from the '50s if you met their price. A TV series would be a plateful of fried gold for them -- 25 minutes * 30 episodes per season * 5 seasons * whatever they charge per minute = JACKPOT!


Color became standard around 15 years before 1980, so if shows from the '70s don't sell it's not like a colorized show from the '50s will do any better.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

If colorization brings more black and white shows to DVD then I'm in favor of it. I don't like colorization but some of those older shows really need to get to DVD. I'd buy such DVD's and just turn off the color on my TV-I do that everytime I watch the second season of "Bewitched" anyway.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

I'm not a fan of colorizing B&W, but the thing to look at is that the Color versions of Bewitched S1 & S2 both just DOMINATED the B&W skus in sales.

I mean just killed them.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

The Black and White volumes were harder to find. All I could see were the colorized ones at Wal-Mart.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

I'm only talking videoscan numbers - so WalMart isn't included in that.

But even without WalMart, the color versions sold really, really well - especially for an older show.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

The fact that the colorized sets outsold the b&w ones doesn't surprise me in the least. It disgusts me, but it doesn't surprise me.

Gary "that just demonstrates our point all the more that most of the younger crowd can't appreciate b&w shows in general" O.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

I have to agree as well. Watching a television series as it was originally intended, in black and white, if that's how it was produced, is the only way to watch the series in.

For me, I would never purchase a television series if it was converted from black and white to color. I hate colorizations as I've never watched one that I was satisfied with. It just takes away from the original feeling that one experiences with those classic shows.

The only people that claim they want color are those folks who never knew what it was to grow up watching these shows as they were originally intended. That's why I could only buy the Bewitched Seasons 1-2 in black and white. It's blasphemy to think of watching the first two seasons in color.

With black and white television programs, you get more contrast and feeling than you can with colorization. By colorizing these shows, you take away from that feeling of noir.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

If you hadn't given them a choice, there would have been no comparison to make. I looked everywhere for the Black-and-White Bewitched seasons anywhere and had to buy them at FYE at retail cost.

Do not give the consumer a choice. No colorization. Do they make B&W versions of color material available? Should we also crop these shows to 16x9? Make fake stereo remixes? Add CGI special effects (whoops, too late, they did it to Star Trek already)?

This is a cultural dark age as far as I'm concerned. It's bad enough that the studios are willing to reward such philistinism. How long before they have to colorize Citizen freakin' Kane?

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

LOL That is the funniest quote I have seen in a long time.

These DVDs are not meant to by a historical record. They are meant to be purchased by consumers. If they have shown to prefer colorized, then it makes sense that that is what they sell. It is a business, not a historical archiving.

I love Pizza. I hate fungus (mushrooms) on pizza. I don't think every pizza joint should stop making mushrooms available to those who like them.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

That's not actually true. There were many directors who chose not to shoot in Technicolor because the colors, particularly in the 3-strip age, were too bright and did not suit the natures of the dramatic stories they were trying to tell. As the years went on and cinematographers learned to better control the color pallette, more dramatic filmmakers were willing to film in color.

Eventually studios forbade directors from using B&W and now you almost never see a whole movie shot in B&W. You do, however, see a lot of directors and cinematographers draining the majority of the color from their movies, trying to get a monochromatic feel. Lots of directors out there would jump at the chance to make a movie in B&W.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

I do agree that B&W is best in some places. Like the opening of Wizard of Oz. But it is there for a reason. I am not suggesting that they colorize that.

I still think that "Bewitched" was only in B&W for cost reasons, not due to artistic choice. So colorizing it can only help in my view.

Getting back to the original issue, I think that if the DVDs would only sell enough if they were colorized, then they should do it. Especially if the other option is to not be released at all. Isn't it better to have a colorized version than no version at all ever be sold?

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

No.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Once you colorize a scene, you can't merely turn down the color on your TV to watch it in black and white. The contrasts have been completely altered.

I wouldn't want to watch The Untouchables in color. Robert Stack looks best in Black and white.

There are plenty of shows that lost their edge when they went color. Andy Griffith Show being a perfect example. Or Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

The Andy Griffith Show had an edge? Who knew?

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

False choice. Series that were filmed in B&W [in whole or in part] can be released in their original format if the studios think they'll sell. If the content isn't there or it won't appeal to a wide enough audience, then it doesn't matter how "updated" they are.
Not really... LOL sadly. Turning down the color level doesn't restore the depth of tone present in the original B&W. The picture looks flat and detail in the shadows is lost. You can't reverse engineer a transfer with digital settings.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

I've stated it before in other threads on the subject and I'll repeat my feelings here.

I have no objections to colorization as long as the original black & white is also available (like the current A CHRISTMAS CAROL ('51) discs). What I cannot stand, will not abide, and will not support is any release of black & white material that's only available in a colorized form.

I'm not anti-choice here. If there are those that have to have everything prettified, that's fine, as long as I can have my pristine original black & white version too.

Personally I'd rather live with fading memories of an old show than to have to abide a colorized-only release.

Harry

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Will a show suddenly sell just because it's in color? I just don't see the kids rushing to the stores to get Alfred Hitchcock Presents: Season Four (for example) if they see it's in color. If there's no interest, there's no interest. I don't think color is going to make a big difference.

And I don't know the cost of colorization but I bet that it's more than a studio is willing to invest in something that they don't feel has a chance selling in black and white. In other words, if they don't think they can sell it as is, why would they invest more money into it?

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

False analogy. Pizza is food, not something comparable to a piece of intellectual property. If you were an artist, would you want something you created altered and desecrated by outsiders with no knowledge of (or interest in) your artistic intent, just to make a quick buck?

A DVD is a representation of an original film or television program, like a lithograph of a painting. If it adds new elements it ceases to be a representation of the original.

I'm anti-choice when it comes to artistic intent and proud of it.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

The whole thing behind color in television shows was that "color film" was expensive way back during the 40's 50's and 60's. This was explained by the creators of the Gilligan's Island television series. I think I watched one of the documentaries ... at any rate, it isn't that the black and white versions are inferior, just that, this is the way the shows were originally filmed. The colorization wasn't added to the film prints until much, much later.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

For those who say all directors would have shot in color if only they could have, and in celebration of the latest re-release of "It's A Wonderful Life" (now in living COLOR!!), I submit a portion of Roger Ebert's Great Movie discussion off the Frank Capra classic. The article is from the early '90s so some of the references are a bit dated but Jimmy Stewart's statement at the end of the last paragraph is pretty interesting:

It's a Wonderful Life
Release Date: 1946

Roger Ebert

The best and worst things that ever happened to "It's a Wonderful Life" are that it fell out of copyright protection and into the shadowy no-man's-land of the public domain. Because the movie is no longer under copyright, any television station that can get its hands on a print of the movie can show it, at no cost, as often as it wants to. And that has led in the last decade to the rediscovery of Frank Capra's once-forgotten film, and its elevation into a Christmas tradition. PBS stations were the first to jump on the bandwagon in the early 1970s, using the saga of the small-town hero George Bailey as counter-programming against expensive network holiday specials. To the general amazement of TV program directors, the audience for the film grew and grew over the years, until now many families make the movie an annual ritual.

That was the best thing that happened to "It's a Wonderful Life," bringing cheer into the lives of director Frank Capra and star James Stewart, who both consider it their favorite film. The worst thing--which has inspired Stewart to testify before a congressional committee and Capra to issue a sickbed plea--is that the movie has been colorized. Movies in the public domain are so defenseless that you could cut one up to make ukulele picks, and who could legally prevent you? And so a garish colorized version--destroying the purity of the classic original black-and-white images--has been seen on cable, is available for local syndication and is sold on cassette.

It is a great irony that the colorized version has been copyrighted, and so many stations are paying a great deal for the rights to an inferior version of a movie that they could show for free in black and white. If I were a local television program director with taste and a love of movies, I would find out when my competitor was going to air his colorized version, and counter-program with the original black-and-white movie, patting myself on the back for a public service. Maybe it could be promoted with a clip of Jimmy Stewart telling Congress, in his inimitable way, "I tried to look at the colorized version, but I had to switch it off--it made me feel sick."

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

Chaplin looked back at his old films and chopped them up, adding audio over The Gold Rush. I consider any artist looking back with the intent to alter for modern sensibilities and colorization along the same lines of disaster and destruction.

Re: Colorization: a possible solution to unreleased B/W shows?

There was a strange edge to the black and white shows. Mayberry had shadows to it. Same thing happens when you go from the black and white to color episode of the Avengers. Color takes away. Film Noir does not work in Technicolor.