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The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

post #1 of 246
12/1/07 at 10:11pm
Thread Starter 
I have been meaning to make a post here about this for a long while now, it seems my negative comments on films are not acceptable any longer at my previous long time hang-out.

We have a serious knew problem with the fabulous HD/BD formats that if not corrected will utterly kill the format with film lovers like us, that problem is the regular attempts at moving film grain from these otherwise fine releases.

Film grain is a natural part of the image and is only visible now (versus DVD) due to the higher frequency details and resolution of HD/BD formats. You will notice in my reviews that I always mention whether or not the film I am reviewing has been trashed with noise reduction, this is very important because when NR has been applied to a release we are robbed of all life and detail that is present in films at this high of a resolution.

I have to be blunt and honest here, the only reason this is occuring is to please all these morons that think grain is bad and some fanboy console gamers so they won't complain that everything doesn't look like Shrek!

The worst case example of this horrid practise is Face/Off on HD-DVD, absolutely and utterly hammered with NR, NR is easily spotted by looking for slight smearing and ghosting, here is a long thread on AVS discussing this problem with this release and how in general Paramount has ruined nearly every release so far.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=933107

Some other titles that are totally or partially ruined with NR are:

Complete Jack Ryan set HD
Top Gun HD
Face/Off HD
Black Rain HD
Untouchables (bad!!!) HD
First Blood BD
Italian Job HD
Dawn of the Dead BD
Tremors HD

here is another more complete list in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=937873

a example of NR is this great screenhot, look at Fred Ward's face from Tremors:

http://www.cif-forums.com/png/tremors_1.png

to make matters worse, our old buddy from DVD is back and that is false EE or edge enhancement, this is usually always done to NR'd transfers in a attempt to bring back some detail that is totally smudged away via the NR process, in the end you are left with a nasty image, Face/Off on HD-DVD is a prime example of this tragedy

people need to push studios for better PQ than this crap we are being given, please stop this NR/EE madness, this means you Paramount

-Gary
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post #2 of 246
12/1/07 at 11:25pm

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

True enough there. Sigh.........
The only up side is that the result still looks better than what is broadcast on my Comcast HD cable. Lots of same color critter movement, burnt highlights and edge highlights. Sony LCOS 60" so I have many adjustments and still HD cable typically looks terrible.
I have the Untouchables on HD and have yet to view it. Now I'll look at it with this NR post in mind.
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post #3 of 246
12/1/07 at 11:29pm

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

I agree 100%. This is a major problem that studios need to quit doing. The Last Starfighter is absolutely terrible with DNR. I hope this doesn't become worse with every title utilizing this. There is only one studio that is consistent with not using EE or DNR on new titles and that is Warner. Classy transfer all the way with a few exceptions on some very early releases.
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post #4 of 246
12/2/07 at 12:46am
Thread Starter 

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Warner is the best, bar none, always have been in regards from everything to masters to preservation and DVD, HD-DVD etc. they know how to get things done right

Sony is very very good as well, I would rate them second to Warner so far in everything HD wise, just my opinion of course , their BD50/avc/pcm/truehd releases from the past 6 to 9 months have been astounding

Paramount started out wonderfully also, Tomb Raider is splendid, as is Sahara and Sleepy Hollow, Italian Job has master issues because it looked the same on Showtime HD as it did on the HD/BD releases

that is one thing to consider here, the master houses could be doing this and could be to blame, not the studios

only insiders can give us a idea as to where the blame is

-Gary
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post #5 of 246
12/2/07 at 2:38am

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Eesh, so it looks like NR is the new EE. Great. I don't own any of the listed titles (as a BD only owner right now there's only a couple listed) but I sure hope they right the ship, no matter which format wins. I had high hopes that this HD format would finally put an end to silly digital "enhancements" that do nothing but detract from the actual picture quality.
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post #6 of 246
12/2/07 at 7:35am

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

DNR isn't a new problem, but it's certainly more obvious with hi-def releases. Even with SD DVD, there were certain releases where you could tell there'd been way too much noise reduction.

One that immediately springs to mind is the Anchor Bay version of Bad Boys (the early Sean Penn film), which was much anticipated because the previous release had been significantly shortened. It was great to see the restored portions, but the entire image looked flat, shiny and artificial -- completely wrong for a prison movie. But someone had obviously tried to clean it up for the video generation.

M.
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post #7 of 246
12/2/07 at 8:55am

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

I was hoping that after the now famous faux-pas in the Bernstein scene in Warner's SD DVD of Citizen Kane that the studios would have started backing off on DNR. In SD DVD, EE practically nauseates me, but DNR in HD is now starting to scare me.

But, Gary, exactly what are we looking at in the capture from Tremors (a film I don't own and have only seen once)? Is it that Ward's face has no gloss or sheen and little highlights? Did they digitally remove part of his beard stubble? Is it possible he is shaded from the light by Kevin Bacon?
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post #8 of 246
12/2/07 at 11:40am

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

There are hordes of philistines over at AVS complaining that HD discs don't all look like Discovery HD, perhaps this DNR is in response to them.
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post #9 of 246
12/2/07 at 1:21pm

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Recalling some lectures n signal theory, noise is random, and therefore, resistant to compression. In the early days of DVD, it was a choice between running Noise reduction, and ending up with far more visible artifacts, such as blocky video. Running noise reduction results in a blurry image, so a sharpen filter was used--- resulting in ringing-- edge enhancement.

So, is this done out of habit, or is 50GB still not enough?
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post #10 of 246
12/2/07 at 1:22pm

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B_K
Is it that Ward's face has no gloss or sheen and little highlights? Did they digitally remove part of his beard stubble? Is it possible he is shaded from the light by Kevin Bacon?

Look at his eyebrows.
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post #11 of 246
12/2/07 at 2:42pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Schaffer
There are hordes of philistines over at AVS complaining that HD discs don't all look like Discovery HD, perhaps this DNR is in response to them.

Bingo! we have a winner

-Gary
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post #12 of 246
12/3/07 at 3:41am

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

I think another part of the problem is some feel that HD movies should look as clean as video games. I've seen threads on other forums/Web sites of people stating this. I really wish these people would just turn on their noise reduction settings at "high" on their player and/or display instead of encouraging studios to do it.

It's very, very unfortunate and I really think we need to push the studios to avoid DNR. It's another battle we have just like the OAR and EE battles on SD DVD.
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post #13 of 246
12/3/07 at 6:54am

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Schaffer
There are hordes of philistines over at AVS complaining that HD discs don't all look like Discovery HD, perhaps this DNR is in response to them.
On top of that, there are those calling for "full screen" releases in 16:9 so they don't have to cope with the "evil black bars".

I think studios should include little blurbs on how to "enhance" the viewing experience for people looking for the "pristine hi-def video look" from 40 year old films shot in natural lighting. It could say "while the film grain in this movie is a normal byproduct of the technology of the time the film was made and, further, was often used by directors (even today) to create a mood and effect, it is possible you might find this effect unattractive. If so, we suggest turning on the "noise reduction" feature of your display to a setting that renders the image more to your liking."

But, of course, this is a pipe dream. Ah well.
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post #14 of 246
12/3/07 at 9:05am

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Schaffer
There are hordes of philistines over at AVS complaining that HD discs don't all look like Discovery HD, perhaps this DNR is in response to them.

Yes, and not all of them are over at AVS.

What the hell is wrong with grain, anyway? Why the allergic reaction? As far as I'm concerned, grain has the same beautiful, textural effect, whether in SD or HD. When I see grain rendered in HD, I still see all the other benefits of HD working with and underneath the grain. It's not as if grain is destroying the inherent strength of high-def imaging.

A lot of people have a long future of disappointment if seeing grain causes them to break out in hives. Many fantastic, even classic films, many of them fairly recent, have yet to be released in high-def...titles with a visual cornerstone of INTENTIONAL grain.

And, so far as full-screen...I'll be damn if I haven't noticed an over all up-tick in the sale of full-screen titles, at least among casually noticed instances in the Amazon Top 100 list. Perhaps it was wishful thinking, but I thought that drivel was receding into a past concern.
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post #15 of 246
12/3/07 at 1:30pm

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Wilkins
Yes, and not all of them are over at AVS.

What the hell is wrong with grain, anyway? Why the allergic reaction? As far as I'm concerned, grain has the same beautiful, textural effect, whether in SD or HD. When I see grain rendered in HD, I still see all the other benefits of HD working with and underneath the grain. It's not as if grain is destroying the inherent strength of high-def imaging.

A lot of people have a long future of disappointment if seeing grain causes them to break out in hives. Many fantastic, even classic films, many of them fairly recent, have yet to be released in high-def...titles with a visual cornerstone of INTENTIONAL grain.


They are going to have a fit when they get to Aliens, probably one of the grainiest films of the last 30 years.

Doug
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post #16 of 246
12/3/07 at 2:35pm

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Or nearly any Super 35 production with an abundance of night scenes. Another one that comes to mind for the grain-haters is Saving Private Ryan.
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post #17 of 246
12/3/07 at 3:12pm

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
Or nearly any Super 35 production with an abundance of night scenes. Another one that comes to mind for the grain-haters is Saving Private Ryan.

Yes, 'Saving Private Ryan' is a fine example.

They'll be doing their best Quazimodo, with hands pressed tightly over their ears, repeating, "The grain...the GRAIN!"
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post #18 of 246
12/3/07 at 3:25pm

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
Or nearly any Super 35 production with an abundance of night scenes. Another one that comes to mind for the grain-haters is Saving Private Ryan.


With Super 35, Silverado comes to mind. One of the early Super 35 films. I remember reading about it in American Cinematographer. The DP talked about using a chemical process called silvering to try and help control the grain. I believe Top Gun also used this process.

Doug
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post #19 of 246
12/3/07 at 5:25pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
With Super 35, Silverado comes to mind. One of the early Super 35 films. I remember reading about it in American Cinematographer. The DP talked about using a chemical process called silvering to try and help control the grain. I believe Top Gun also used this process.

Doug

yes Top Gun was always really grainy, however somehow the HD-DVD managed to not be, I wonder how that is

that and Face/Off are the worst offenders so far

-Gary
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post #20 of 246
12/3/07 at 11:03pm

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
yes Top Gun was always really grainy, however somehow the HD-DVD managed to not be, I wonder how that is

that and Face/Off are the worst offenders so far

-Gary

Both Top Gun and Silverado were made before the introduction of T-grain films. T-grain really made the use of Super 35 acceptable to filmmakers in terms of sharpness and reduced grain, hence the move away from anamorphic lenses for the majority of 2.35:1 films.

Personally given the choice I think I would still use anamorphic lenses to be able to use the whole academy negative area, unless I was doing lots of in camera effects.

Doug
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post #21 of 246
12/4/07 at 3:10am
Thread Starter 

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

anamorphic scope is soooo nice, I miss it dearly on new films

for those wondering, Space Cowboys is a fine beautiful example of a scope film on HD-DVD (as is Omage Man for that matter)

-Gary
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post #22 of 246
12/4/07 at 4:20am

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
anamorphic scope is soooo nice, I miss it dearly on new films

for those wondering, Space Cowboys is a fine beautiful example of a scope film on HD-DVD (as is Omage Man for that matter)

-Gary

Definitely agree about Space Cowboys. Jack Green is one of the great unsung heros of Cinematography. His work on Serenity is also quite good, even though it was shot super 35.

Doug
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post #23 of 246
12/4/07 at 8:17am

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

What do you folks think about "We Were Soldiers" and "Chicago"? I for one was very pleased to finally see the "fabric" of these films on HD. On DVD, the images just fell apart.
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post #24 of 246
12/4/07 at 8:37am

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

A shame, really, since the merits of Super35 and 'scope could be debated if only the discs were faithful to what was originally shot. The clean look of digital films is as much a style as the gritty look of say, "Dog Day Afternoon."

All I ask is that the film look like it was clean/well preserved, and projected by a professional.
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post #25 of 246
12/4/07 at 10:56am

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Face/Off did look pretty bad. I usually don't notice these sorts of things(I still have trouble spotting EE on a lot of titles), but it was painfully obvious on that one. And that was while watching it on my 32" LCD screen. I don't wanna imagine how bad it looks on my 60" SXRD.
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post #26 of 246
12/4/07 at 11:28am

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_ME
Face/Off did look pretty bad. I usually don't notice these sorts of things(I still have trouble spotting EE on a lot of titles), but it was painfully obvious on that one. And that was while watching it on my 32" LCD screen. I don't wanna imagine how bad it looks on my 60" SXRD.

I'm no expert on HD noise reduction etc. but I did happen to see a Blu-ray demo of POTC: At World's End at my local Virgin Megastore (or Zavvi or whatever it's called) last Friday and I was surprised by just how much grain I saw on this movie. It was actually quite distracting, not the grain per se but the way it kept shifting between cuts. I realise it's supposed to be there, but I can see why a lot of people are put off when they expect HD to present a "better" picture. To my eyes the SD-DVD looks a lot better on my 28" Panasonic CRT.

If people are seeing downsides to the PQ of HD media then I'm guessing they'll see even less of a reason to upgrade.
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post #27 of 246
12/4/07 at 12:16pm

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Too badd!
Tried to warn people about these problems before.
Was shot down.

Now its too late.
We have HD Disc titles that have been released with garbage transfers.
It's our own fault for not demanding this NEVER happened to HD Disc.

People brought DVD's w/EE & now people buy HD Discs w/EE (and worse!).
What does the studio care?
It is just money in the bank.

I brought "2001" on HD, cause the reviews said no EE.
Pop in the disc...
there's EE!

Lighter than I'd seen B4,
butt that's NOT why I'm spending $$$ on HD!!! :-(
This S U C K S ! ! !
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post #28 of 246
12/5/07 at 12:18pm

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
Too badd!
Tried to warn people about these problems before.
Was shot down.

Now its too late.
We have HD Disc titles that have been released with garbage transfers.
It's our own fault for not demanding this NEVER happened to HD Disc.

People brought DVD's w/EE & now people buy HD Discs w/EE (and worse!).
What does the studio care?
It is just money in the bank.

I brought "2001" on HD, cause the reviews said no EE.
Pop in the disc...
there's EE!

Lighter than I'd seen B4,
butt that's NOT why I'm spending $$$ on HD!!! :-(
This S U C K S ! ! !

So, you'd rather stick with 480i?

HDM is not 100% perfect, but it is a HUGE improvement over DVD. There is absoutely no comparison in quality with the vast majority of discs.
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post #29 of 246
12/5/07 at 12:47pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

I don't think that is what Ed was saying, just that we don't have to stand for it, sticking up for quality is a life pursuit for me

no excuss for this NR/EE crap, I do realize that it is most likely master related and that studios can't strike up a new master for each HD/BD release, most of the masters were made during DVD days and many times have NR/EE, Universal has a serious problem with EE for example, I have seen many of their films on HD movie channels and they are just the same, EE city, they need to switch mastering houses

-Gary
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post #30 of 246
12/5/07 at 1:37pm

Re: The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

But as long as most people don't know what EE/NR is (let alone care about it), the higher quality transfers will remain the exception, not the rule.
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