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"Does Blu-ray Profile 1.1 make past players obsolete?"

post #1 of 12
11/2/07 at 11:28pm
Thread Starter 
"Does Blu-ray Profile 1.1 make past players obsolete?"
October 31, 2007 11:00 AM PDT

=====(entire article copied below - link provided for CNetNews.com)

Quote:
Today is the official end of the "grace period" for Blu-ray manufacturers, which means that all Blu-ray players released from now on must comply with Blu-ray Profile 1.1 (also known as Final Standard Profile and BD-Video Profile 1.1). Of course, that doesn't mean that Profile 1.0 Blu-ray players still can't be sold, and if you walk into your local electronics store over the next few months, you're likely to see both Profile 1.0 and Profile 1.1 Blu-ray players on the shelf. So what's the big difference between Profile 1.0 and Profile 1.1?

Profile 1.0 vs. Profile 1.1

There are several different hardware requirements (see the chart below), but it basically boils down to picture-in-picture functionality. All Blu-ray players up until this point have been Profile 1.0 and have lacked the secondary video and audio decoders necessary to play a smaller video in the corner while also playing the main high-def movie in the background. With the notable exception of the Sony PlayStation 3, Profile 1.0 players cannot be upgraded via firmware to become Profile 1.1 players.

Because Profile 1.0 players lacked this functionality, movie studios have understandably not included picture-in-picture functionality on any current Blu-ray disc. Fox has announced that it will release its first Profile 1.1-enabled disc, Sunshine, in the first quarter of 2008. And as more Profile 1.1 players become available, we expect more Profile 1.1 discs to be released.

Profile 1.1 vs. Profile 2.0

Despite Profile 1.1 also being known as Final Standard Profile, there's actually still another Blu-ray specification, Profile 2.0, also known as BD-Live. The reason it's called BD-Live is that the major difference between profiles 1.1 and 2.0 is that Profile 2.0 requires that the player has an Internet connection. Although some current Blu-ray players have an Ethernet port, these are strictly for firmware updates and can't be used to access downloadable content.

Again, since Internet connectivity isn't a mandatory feature on current Blu-ray players, movie studios have not included any Internet-enabled functionality on any current Blu-ray discs to date and there are currently no Internet-enabled discs announced for the future. Internet connectivity could be used to download additional movie content, download trailers, or enable purchasing movie-related merchandise. The other requirement of Profile 2.0 is increasing the mandatory local storage capacity to 1GB, which is presumably to accommodate downloaded content.

Technical hardware requirements

Features: ..........................Profile 1.0 ...Profile 1.1 ......Profile 2.0
Required local storage: .........None ..........256 MB ..........1 G
Secondary video decoder: ...Optional ......Mandatory .....Mandatory
Secondary audio decoder: ...Optional ......Mandatory .....Mandatory
Internet connectivity: ........Optional .....Optional .........Mandatory

Chart compiled using EMediaLive's excellent Authoritative BD FAQ and Wikipedia.

HD DVD's advantage

As Blu-ray continues to get its act together on hardware requirements, there's no denying that HD DVD has had it right from the start. The HD DVD specification has required every player--from the very first HD-A1--to include secondary audio and video decoders, 128MB of local storage, and an Ethernet jack. Because movie studios know that special features will be accessible on every HD DVD player, several movies, such as 300 and Blood Diamond, already have picture-in-picture and Internet-enabled functionality. Of course, HD DVD's superior hardware requirements are just one factor out of many in its fight against Blu-ray--but in this brutal high-def format war, every little bit helps.

Should I wait for Profile 1.1 or 2.0?

Profile 1.1 players certainly don't make older Profile 1.0 players obsolete. While movie enthusiasts lust over special features and commentary tracks, many people are completely uninterested in investing even more time in a movie. If you already have a Profile 1.0 player, it should be able to play all the new Profile 1.1 discs without a problem--you just won't be access to some of the special features. On the other hand, if you don't have a Blu-ray player yet and you have any interest in special features, there's no reason not to look at the newly released Panasonic DMP-BD30 or wait for new Profile 1.1 players from other manufacturers. The same logic applies to Profile 2.0--you don't need to wait unless you want to be able to access the Internet-enabled features on the new discs. If you're still nervous about your Blu-ray player becoming obsolete, the best bet is to go with a PlayStation 3, which already has Internet connectivity and will likely be Profile 1.1 compliant.

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post #2 of 12
11/10/07 at 12:03pm
Thread Starter 

Re: "Does Blu-ray Profile 1.1 make past players obsolete?"

The State of Blu-ray

Quote:
12:00 PM ON THU NOV 8 2007
BY WILSON ROTHMAN



The war between Blu-ray and HD DVD takes center stage, but now we're starting to see rumbles within the vast Blu-ray coalition. How long did you think a truce between longtime rivals Sony and Panasonic could last, anyhow? To be sure, everyone is being perfectly civil to one another, but while Panasonic, Samsung and Denon are blazing the way with "standard" Blu-ray players, Pioneer and Sony still remain hung up on the "initial" Blu-ray spec. After talking to top brass at all of these companies, we have pieced together a sense of where Blu-ray hardware is headed, and why it's taking so long.



The root of the problem is that Blu-ray did not have a finished specification when devices went into production.

Instead, there were two or three "profiles," outlined in the chart above. After November 1, any Blu-ray player had to meet 1.1, sometimes called "final standard profile." Panasonic planned a mid-November launch of its 1.1 player, and a production delay caused Samsung to update its player to the spec. Denon always planned to ship its first Blu-ray player in December, so it planned for 1.1 all along. Meanwhile, Sony, Pioneer and others introduced Blu-ray players in the fall that shipped just before the November 1 deadline, thereby ensuring that they did not have to be "final standard." Instead, they met the requirements of the simpler "initial profile.

What the hell is BD Profile 1.1 anyway?

All that's required for a player to meet the "final standard profile" (aka 1.1) is internal memory of at least 256MB, secondary video decoding and audio mixing, plus virtual file management, presumably to read and decode content streams from different places on the disc simultaneously. "Standard" doesn't even mean Ethernet. The hallmark of 1.1 is picture-in-picture, and before you groan, rest assured, many in the industry groaned too, at first.

"Picture-in-picture... God, we're talking about that again after 20 years?" said Jeff Talmadge, director of product development at Denon. "I don't think anyone ever used it then. But it could mean some pretty cool stuff."

Cool stuff indeed, like what Warner did with the 300 HD DVD: you could watch the finished movie on the big screen, while watching the actors jump around in front of a green screen in the smaller on-screen box. Surely if 1.1 players had been released, Warner would have put that feature on the Blu-ray of 300. In the end, it did not.

At the moment, there aren't any 1.1 Blu-ray discs at all.

Sony's Stan Glasgow argued that the software wasn't here yet, and that picture quality from "initial" spec to "standard" spec doesn't change. "The important thing is what features you get," Glasgow told us. "Performance doesn't improve with 1.1. What are studios going to add?"

Well, studios are finally going to add something. Fox has announced that the sci-fi drama Sunshine will ship January 8. I saw footage of it in a demo, and while I wasn't bowled over, I like the implications. Just like HD DVD, the picture-in-picture capability will come in handy with "box set" movie editions, like Lord of the Rings, where the movie and the "making of" would benefit from juxtaposition.

The bottom line is, today's players need to be 1.1 so that buyers don't get screwed out of good content when movie companies start bringing it out next year. ...

The worst case scenario is that studios start releasing movies that don't even play on older machines.

... It's a possibility, though one that hardware manufacturers say they won't let happen.

"You know the software is coming," says Reid Sullivan, VP of marketing for Samsung's A/V products group. Samsung's higher-end BD-UP5000 Duo isn't just 1.1 but also a full-featured HD DVD player. "It behooves us to try and make the product as future-proof as possible, even if the content isn't available yet. When it is available, consumers can enjoy all of it." Sullivan told us that the Duo is on track for end of December in-store availability at a price of $999, but that pricing may be "updated" to reflect the market. That is, we might see this sucker for less.

Remember, though: while Samsung did drop its deluxe Blu-ray only, non-1.1 player, it is selling the BD-P1400, a cheaper Blu-ray player that only meets the "initial" specifications. We're not nearly as excited about that, though its announced $549 sticker price will very likely plummet by Christmas as well.

You will remember that we reported that the Duo will only get to the 1.1 profile with a free firmware update scheduled for late January. Ironically, because the Duo has an Ethernet port mandated by its HD DVD half, it will be able to get the update via network, without any fancy download-and-burn requirement.

Speaking of firmware, we had our hopes pegged on the PS3's 2.00 software update for adding 1.1 capability, but just this AM, we were sorely disappointed. Nevertheless, word on the street is that the PS3 still just needs a software update to activate 1.1. ...

The current lineup of Sony Blu-ray players, on the other hand, can never reach it, with or without firmware update.

Denon will offer the third 1.1 player of 2007, also available in December. While it's nice to see that Denon skipped "initial" profile and jumped right into "standard," it's even more encouraging to hear Talmadge say that a universal player is in the works:

"In our heart and soul, we are looking at a true universal player, if that's what the market dictates. And it won't just play all video discs, but it will play SACD and DVD-Audio as well." Hell, a player like that might even be worth Denon's unarguably high-end price.

For those squarely in the Blu-ray camp, the best is, apparently, yet to come. A "full" spec—sometimes called BD Profile 2.0—will increase capability to include BD Live, an online component with trailer downloads, online shopping and other features that may or may not actually be compelling. Blu-ray Disc Association spokesman and Pioneer SVP Andy Parsons says the 2.0 is a misnomer, since the BD Live specifications were codified in January 2006. "A company could have released BD Live players the next day if they had wished." It didn't happen, but partly because of the chicken-and-egg argument that emerges between players and movie titles.

Daewoo is closest to the mark right now, with the 2.0 player it showed off in September. (It is conceivable that Daewoo could roll out its 2.0 player before Sony launches a 1.1 player.) Meanwhile, Disney is talking about releasing BD Live content next year including Finding Nemo and The Chronicles of Narnia. There is a chance the PS3 will be compatible with the online interactive portion.

What's in it for you?

If you love your Blu-ray, try and buy one of the players that meet the 1.1 spec, or at least hang onto that PS3. Although this isn't a piece about the format war, your best bet may be to shop for the a Duo. As Samsung's Sullivan told us, "We believe Blu-ray has the best chance in the long run, but in the short term, Duo is the best for consumers. You just pick a movie, play it and enjoy." While the jury's still out on that first part, the second bit sounds just right to me.
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post #3 of 12
11/11/07 at 9:24am

Re: "Does Blu-ray Profile 1.1 make past players obsolete?"

To answer your question, no. The discs still play. It only matters if you care about extra features like IME.
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post #4 of 12
11/13/07 at 8:06am

Re: "Does Blu-ray Profile 1.1 make past players obsolete?"

Also, according to rumors from Fox's Sushine release, the PiP features will be available as a separate entity and watchable outside of the movie for those with non 1.1 compliant players.
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post #5 of 12
11/13/07 at 2:10pm

Re: "Does Blu-ray Profile 1.1 make past players obsolete?"

Considering that the players will continue to do 'everything' that they are capable of doing now, I would not consider them obsolete just because some additional features are made possible by profile 1.1 ALso, please keep in mind that to a vast majority of users the features that profile 1.1. adds, are not even important.
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post #6 of 12
11/14/07 at 9:29am

Re: "Does Blu-ray Profile 1.1 make past players obsolete?"

Just a clarification if you please. The BR profile 1.0 player is not designed with firmware upgrade capability so if you encounter compatibility issues with current and/or future software releases, your up the creek without a paddle.
If you purchase a profile 1.1+ player, these machines can accept firmware updates. Is this correct?
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post #7 of 12
11/14/07 at 9:51am

Re: "Does Blu-ray Profile 1.1 make past players obsolete?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigluigi
Just a clarification if you please. The BR profile 1.0 player is not designed with firmware upgrade capability so if you encounter compatibility issues with current and/or future software releases, your up the creek without a paddle.
If you purchase a profile 1.1+ player, these machines can accept firmware updates. Is this correct?

I'm not sure if you're kidding or not, but yes, absolutely, profile 1.0 players are definitely firmware upgradeable. Just because an ethernet connection isn't mandated doesn't make the player incapable of upgrades.
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post #8 of 12
11/14/07 at 9:59am

Re: "Does Blu-ray Profile 1.1 make past players obsolete?"

All profile 1.1 does is allow the PiP and advanced extra features. If playing the movie is all that matters, then Profile whatever won't matter to you. I still question whether or not the intention of the first post was to inform people or show how HD DVD is better. Given the poster history, I'm willing to say it's the 2nd one.
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post #9 of 12
11/14/07 at 10:08am

Re: "Does Blu-ray Profile 1.1 make past players obsolete?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonovanCampbell
I'm not sure if you're kidding or not, but yes, absolutely, profile 1.0 players are definitely firmware upgradeable. Just because an ethernet connection isn't mandated doesn't make the player incapable of upgrades.
No, I wasn't kidding. I was told by a BestBuy salesperson that profile 1.0 players were not firmware upgradeable. Thanks for the clarification.
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post #10 of 12
11/14/07 at 1:24pm
Thread Starter 

Re: "Does Blu-ray Profile 1.1 make past players obsolete?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonovanCampbell
I'm not sure if you're kidding or not, but yes, absolutely, profile 1.0 players are definitely firmware upgradeable. Just because an ethernet connection isn't mandated doesn't make the player incapable of upgrades.

Since you have the inside INFO of upgradability with Blu-ray Profile 1.0 players, you might want to contact Rob Mead @ Tech.Co.Uk.com ...

this is what he posted on ... 13 Nov 2007 08:05 GMT ...

"Blu-ray 1.1: a lawsuit waiting to happen?"

Quote:
Early adopters of Blu-ray Disc could be so incensed by changes being made to 'their' movie format that they could sue Hollywood studios and hardware makers alike.

This is because many Blu-ray movies being launched next year have interactive menus and other features that take advantage of BD-Video Final Standard Profile 1.1 - a new hardware standard that mandates technology like persistent memory, BD Java and internet connections (optional) that older Blu-ray decks do not have.

Blu-ray: accident or design?

If you've ponied up in excess of £1,000 for a Blu-ray deck in that last couple of years that can't play or won't play these new features, you're gonna feel pretty miffed.

So says Olivier Van Wynendaele, spokesman for the European arm of the HD DVD Promotion Group. To be honest, he has a point, and it's a very good one:

"You some have hardware limitations. Persistent memory, for instance, mandates that you have flash memory inside the player, which is what HD DVD players have."

"You can't upgrade the hardware"

"Take a Samsung or a Sony player - they have no flash memory. How will you introduce flash memory into a player which has already been designed and introduced? It's not a PC, you can't change the board, you can't upgrade it," Van Wynendaele told Tech.co.uk.

Wynendaele then cites the Blu-ray release of sci-fi actioner Sunshine as an example of how this could be a problem. Sunshine is the first Blu-ray from any Hollywood studio that includes a Picture-in-Picture function so you can see, rather than just hear, movie-makers comments.

"This feature won't work on any Blu-ray player available today. Even on the PS3...", he says. The PS3's saving grace, however, is that it can be upgraded to the Profile 1.1 specification with a firmware update.

Blu-ray: who's to blame?

"So consumers will buy a title and find it does not work. The problem is then do they go back to the hardware manufacturer or the software manufacturer? Consumer lawsuits are quite common these days. I'm not sure that studios will take a big risk putting on features that won't work with some players."

Van Wynendaele also warns that the change in the Blu-ray standard could seal the fate of the format as it's reputation is damaged by the format's earliest adopters:

"The first people who will buy your Blu-ray player are early adopters, the tech guys and so on. The ones who love new technology and features. They want the best. They are the ones who make the reputation of the format, of the product... those people are very important from the start.

"You'd better have those people on your side, for you rather than against you, because a small pool can make a large noise. And if those people make too much noise then the majority won't buy your product.

"It's a rip off!"

"If those people start writing on the internet 'I bought this movie from Fox and it won't play. it's a rip-off, but nobody will take any responsibility - retailers are blaming the studios, studios are blaming the playback device' - then it could get nasty very quickly."

Van Wynendaele, of course, points out that features such as persistent memory, picture-inpicture, interactivity and internet connections have been compulsory on HD DVD since its launch.

The trouble doesn't end there for Blu-ray, however. While the new Profile 1.1 specification makes persistent memory mandatory (256MB of it), Internet connectivity remains optional. In fact, Internet connectivity won't be declared mandatory until the next specification, Profile 2.0, aka BD-Live.
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post #11 of 12
11/14/07 at 4:25pm

Re: "Does Blu-ray Profile 1.1 make past players obsolete?"

Phil,
I still can't believe you are reposting this stuff. It's not a lawsuit waiting to happen.

No matter what profile you have, the discs still play.
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post #12 of 12
11/15/07 at 9:33am

Re: "Does Blu-ray Profile 1.1 make past players obsolete?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Iturralde
Since you have the inside INFO of upgradability with Blu-ray Profile 1.0 players, you might want to contact Rob Mead @ Tech.Co.Uk.com ...

this is what he posted on ... 13 Nov 2007 08:05 GMT ...

"Blu-ray 1.1: a lawsuit waiting to happen?"

Wow. Misunderstand much?

My response was to bigluigi's question about whether profile 1.0 players could be firmware upgraded IN GENERAL, and not anywhere remotely about whether 1.0 players could be firmware upgraded to 1.1+ . That's it, and that's all I was responding to.

Since the various profiles are hardware profiles, obviously some players will be incapable of upgrading to the next higher profile, but as has been mentioned many times before, the movie will still play. And guess what? If the movie doesn't play, there will no doubt be a firmware upgrade for the player in order for the movie to play.

And in the case of Sunshine, the secondary video portion of the PiP will be playable in 1.0 players as it's own video stream. Not PiP in any sense, but available nonetheless.
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