Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al. - Page 3

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Chris, welcome to HTF and thank you for taking the time to share your expertise. I just got my 3808 yesterday - I did my first calibration using only 6 points (it set my front and rears to large - and I manually adjusted them back to small); my question is should I use all 8 positions? Also, if I redo the calibration does it automatically replace the old information? I like how it sounds, although it seems like my center is a little low along with my sub (SVS 20-39 powered with a NHT SA3 subamp). I don't know the last time I looked at my subamp setting on the back, but I will when I get home from work. It is putting my sub distance at 23', when it is only 12', or less,away - but this could easily be caused by my amp setting, more to come when I get home.

Besides those two issues I am very pleased with the Audyssey, thanks for providing such a wonderful product to the consumer. Oh, one last question, how do I upgrade to the Pro version, and how much does it cost to do so? Thanks, heading home shortly to do some more experimenting.

Mike

Just checked my sub settings, they are: phase = 0, High pass = 100, low pass = 80

I'm going to re-run the Audyssey and see what I get.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Hi Mike,

The difference between 6 and 8 points is hard to predict without knowing the problems in your room. Personally, I would suggest doing all 8 as this is not something you would have to do on a regular basis. The new calibration will replace the old settings.

I am concerned with the sub settings you list--they can't be right. High pass=100 and Low pass=80 means you have no bass! Did you reverse HP and LP? This could also explain the strange sub distance. It's important to not have any filters on the subwoofer. If you can't defeat them (or if there is no LFE input to the sub), then set the High Pass to the lowest possible frequency (20 Hz or below if possible) and the Low Pass to the highest possible frequency. Then the bass management in the 3808 and MultEQ can do their job properly.

Enabling the Pro version requires a firmware upgrade from Denon. Installers set their own pricing for running a professional installation. Don't forget that by doing so you also get Dynamic EQ enabled that corrects the frequency response when listening to non-reference volumes.

Regards,
Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Chris,

Well I feel like an idiot. It's painfully obvious that I didn't understand the point of the crossover - I feel like a newb. I thought that the HP would tell the sub to take anything below 100 and the LP anything lower than 80, but just typing that makes me realize the idiocy of that statement.

I can't shut them off, the SA3 is intended for NHTs old subs that weren't powered and before the time of these fancy receivers. I will go mess with this now and see what I get. Thanks for the reply, man I feel like a idiot. LOL

Mike

---Ok lowest possible frequency I can do on the HP is 65, and I've got the LP as high as it can go with Phase remaining unchanged. Going to redo the calibration and see what I get.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Mike,

The SVS 20-39PC is a powered sub, right? So, what's the purpose of the NHT amp?? The sub also has a crossover bypass button that you should press to "on". I don't see high pass and low pass controls on it. Only a low-pass that is defeated when you use crossover bypass. I would definitely recommend not using the NHT amp and the high-level inputs of the sub.

Regards,
Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

My SVS is 5+ years old, it is a non-amped sub, which is why I have the NHT amp. It is a 20-39, just not powered. I just got done redoing my calibration and it defiantly sounds better; however it still set my sub at 17'. I'm watching The Rock and it sounds really, really good. I don't really want to invest in a new sub right now - I've got phase set to 0, but I can change it to 90, 180, and 270. Although I'm pretty sure I don't need/want to do that.

A new sub would eliminate a piece from my rack, and SVS is having a great sale on the PB12-Plus/2 or a 20-39 PC-Plus.

Thanks Chris,

Mike

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Ahh, OK. It's not the powered one. The reason for the longer distance found is due to the filters that can't be bypassed. Filters add delay to the signal and so MultEQ is seeing that and compensating for it. I'm glad to hear that things are sounding good.

Best,
Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Chris,

Good doesn't even begin to describe how this receiver sounds properly calibrated; the difference is night and day. Thank you for taking the time to walk me through the sub HP and LP FUBAR on my part .

Thanks for the explanation about the filters...I'm just peachy with the way things are now

Thanks again for an excellent product and service.

Mike

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

When using up Auto setup with my Denon AVR 3808 it tells me in the manual to defeat my volume and crossover. Does that mean the volume, crossover and phase should be set to the lowest possible settings? I have a Paradigm PS-1000.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Some subwoofers have an input (usually called "LFE") that bypasses the back panel controls. If yours has that, then use that one. If not, then set the volume control the 12 o'clock setting, the crossover to the highest possible frequency, and the phase to 0°.


Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Chris,

Thanks for all the great information. I have the Denon 2308. When running Audyssey, it recommends my bookshelves be set to a crossover of 40hz and the center at 110hz. My sub is nothing too great but I would think it should be getting at least 80hz down. This is without the LFE. The LFE signal sets the crossover at 80hz which sounds good.

What do you think?

Thanks again,
JP

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Chris (audyssey),

I have a completely different Audyssey question which I'd like to throw out to you for comment/advice. As you may recall, I have calibrated my Denon 3808 with Audyssey Pro (kit and software license purchased at CEDIA 2007) and have been using it for some time. My only issue has been with the bass. Sometimes it sounds too prevalent and other times not. I'm allowing for the fact that I know that all sources are not created equal (no pun intended) where LFE is concerned.

My system consists of seven M&K speakers and two powered subwoofers (An SVS PC-Ultra and an M&K MX-350THX). The two subwoofers were "tuned" about two years ago via a Velodyne SMS-1 (Subwoofer Management System) which compensates for the fact that these are two completely different SW designs and flattens out the low end curve in my room. Last year at CEDIA (after attending the Audyssey training for Pro) I asked the guys at the Velodyne booth what I should do with the SMS-1 settings now that I was going to apply Audyssey Pro to my system. They told me that I should keep my SMS-1 intact as long as the LFE curve was relatively flat and then just do the Audyssey equalization procedure normally. A few other people told me that the SMS-1 process deals with issues that are different than the Audyssey equalization and that the two processes would not interfere with each other. (One's based on frequencies and the other is based on something else - I don't have my notes handy at the moment - maybe you are familiar with the SMS-1 and can shed some light on all this?)

In any event, I'm now wondering whether I am giving Audyssey Pro a fair chance to perform at its best with the SMS-1 in play. Does it make sense to keep the SMS-1 in my system or would I be better served connecting the two subwoofers directly to the Denon 3808 SW output (by switching the SMS-1 to "thru" mode so that all Velodyne processing would be bypassed) and redo my Audyssey Pro calibration for better overall results? Any thoughts you might share on this matter would be greatly appreciated when you get a chance.

Thank you in advance.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Hi Robert,

We are often asked this question. The proper setup method is to first setup the SMS-1 and then run MultEQ so that it calibrates through it. This will allow it to also compensate for the additional delay that the SMS-1 adds to the subwoofer signal (all DSP processes add delay).

The MultEQ subwoofer correction in the 3808 (and all recent receivers with MultEQ) is greatly increased as compared to past implementations. It is a time and frequency domain based correction as are the main speaker filters. The SMS-1 uses parametric equalization and is, therefore, only a frequency domain equalizer. It's difficult to predict whether both correcting devices are needed without knowing more about the acoustical issues in your room. A huge peak in the bass can be tamed by the SMS-1 and then MultEQ can help flatten the response even more.

Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

OK, this is a question I've had that I simply do not understand. Why would you need anything *other* than Audyssey? I don't have 2 volume knobs in my system, for example. Why would you need 2 room EQ methods?

I used to use a BFD. Now I have a Lexicon MC-12 with room EQ. I have never felt the need to try and use both. The Lexicon by itself addresses all my needs. So why would Audyssey need any help from any other room EQ method?

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Kevin,

I happen to agree with you. However, I feel very uncomfortable coming out and saying that "you should not use xxxx's gear because you don't need it". I guess that's why I will never make it in marketing and sales...The truth of the matter is that one should use the simplest method that gives the best results. Using all your gear just because you have it is not the simplest approach. It would be worth trying the sub equalization with just MultEQ and seeing if it addressed all the problems.

Thanks
Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Kevin and Chris,

I'm not disagreeing with your similar positions on this matter - if fact I subscribe to the same philosophy (KISS="Keep It Simple, Stupid")



My first reaction, when I saw Audyssey Pro at CEDIA 2007 (and became an "installer") was that I would retire the Velodyne SMS-1 and just let Audyssey Pro do its thing. It made sense to me. When I was first introduced to Velodyne's SMS-1 a few years ago it solved a problem that I was having. It's very tricky using multiple subs in a room because they sometimes cancel each other out. I was resigned to using just my SVS PC Ultra and not using the M&K MX-350THX since I preferred the bass output and overall sound of the SVS and together there was something missing. What the SMS-1 brought to the table was the ability to analyze the LFE in the room and adjust accordingly. In my particular case there was an 8 dB dip at 62Hz (as shown on the graphic output of the SMS-1) which was the heart of the problem. Almost magically the SMS-1 was able to use a series of sweep tones (and a microphone) to analyze the problem and equalize the output of the dual Subs (of completely different designs) so that the LFE curve below 80Hz is about as flat as practically possible (about 1dB variance at most). And the bass sounded better than ever.

Enter the Audyssey Pro. Like I said, my first assumption was to eliminate the SMS-1 from the equation and leave everything to Audyssey. In practice this would mean rewiring the SMS-1 into a throughput mode (no effect) because with only one SW output on the Denon 3808 the SMS-1 could provide output (unchanged when in throughput) to two Subs. (A fairly expensive, but quality "Y" connector! ) I would then perform a complete Audyssey Pro calibration.

It was at that point where things got a little interesting. Like I said, at CEDIA some fairly respected people in the field asked why I was going to eliminate the SMS-1 from the process? (One person, who shall remain nameless, is a respected technical writer for some of the better known A/V publications.) He claimed that the SMS-1 and Audyssey work on different principles and would not interfere with each other. Velodyne engineers also told me that if I set up the SMS-1 first and then applied Audyssey from that point on that everything would be fine. The common thought from these people was that one system works on frequencies and the other works on something else. I apologize for not recalling what that "something else" is, and I can't find the notes that I took last September but maybe one of you know what they were referring to.

Like I said, my first reaction (and still a gut reaction) was to not use the SMS-1 processing at all and just set my Subs to the recommended parameters in the audyssey manual. However, I do have one question (probably addressed to Chris who might be a bit closer to the source on this). Will Audyssey Pro be able to eliminate the 62Hz dip in the LFE curve the same way as the SMS-1 did when turning the room? I'd hate to lose an advantage that I already have but at the same time I don't want two systems competing with each other for equalization turf. I guess I could also go back to a single Sub (the SVS PC Ultra because the lows are cleaner) and then the cross effects of two Subs would not be an issue.

In any event I plan on recalibrating the room for Audyssey Pro this week once more - without the SMS-1 in the loop, unless someone advises me otherwise. I'm not displeased with the way that the current setup sounds, but I'll never know if there is something even better until I try it out. And the fact that occasionally the bass takes on a slightly more pronounced effect makes me wonder whether that's a manifestation of two competing technologies at play. I fully understand that I always have the original Audyssey Pro settings on file in the computer I use to do the Aud Pro calibration so I could always reload those settings in the Denon 3808 if things get worse instead of better.

Any suggestions, thoughts, on all of this other than "why use two things instead of one?" Some people are telling me that the two things (SMS-1 and Aud Pro) are not a duplication but deal with different items in the audio sound field. Is that hogwash?

Thanks for any ideas you might share.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Robert,

It's really hard to predict how well a certain feature will be corrected. The filters look at the total response and decide where to allocate the most resources based on the most serious problems. It certainly sounds like the 62 Hz would be one of them, but the only way to know is to try it.

Having said that, I think that basing the correction on a single point measurement is not representative of the problems in the listening area (even if it's only one seat). A dip in one spot can easily translate to a peak only a few inches away. So, an 8 dB boost based on one measurement sounds like a lot. But again, hard to say without taking a few measurements around the listening area. It could very well be needed.

Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Chris,

Thanks for the quick response. I tend to agree with the points that you made. On a somewhat related (I think) matter - when doing the Velodyne SMS-1 calibration I noted that they use a sweep tone (about 15-25 ocscillating passes until enough data has been collected) before performing an equalization. Audyssey seems to use a series of more discrete pulsating tones while collecting audio data. Does any of this have to do with the fact that one method is "frequency based" and the other is, as I was told, "something different"? I would surmise that the SMS-1 method is the frequency based one (because of the sweep tone method) or am I completely off base here?

In any event, as I said I'm planning on disabling the SMS-1 circuitry and running a new Aud Pro full calibration again this week. I'll let you know how it goes and how it compares to my current setup with the SMS-1 in the loop so to speak.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Robert & Chris- I think that I do know that an SMS and similarly, using a BFD, work parametrically to remove standing waves. But Audyssey works more in the time domain. I think by osmosis to my brain, the problem with using the parametric method, is that, a) most real content does not energize any singular frequency long enough to build up a standing wave, and, b) Ok, this one is harder to explain. Let's take the example of using a parametric eq to mash down a peak. But then the problem is that it also mashes down the original sound which hasn't itself had time to build up the standing wave. So you are affecting the original sound and not just any standing wave from it.

But that's where time domain correction comes in.

??

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Update: I recalibrated my 3808ci with Audyssey Pro removing the SMS-1 processor from the loop.

As I mentioned, I was going to try to redo the Audyssey without the SMS-1 to see if it improved a sometimes muddy, sometimes excellent LFE situation. My preliminary findings (after one day of listening) are that my system sounds MUCH better without the SMS-1 in the loop. (See my recent posts in this thread regarding the situation.)

I ran a 12 point full Pro calibration as per the Audyssey instructions and it was quite revealing. For one thing, it appears that the Audyssey Pro equalization not only takes care of the 62Hz large dip that was occurring with my two subwoofers attached without the SMS-1 but shows that the SMS-1 is superfluous (and perhaps even counterproductive) when using a different equalization calibration method. So much for the two processes not interfering with each other. But the Audyssey Pro configuration exposed another issue that probably was the most important factor of all. I have two different subs that work on two different SW principles (an SVS PC-Ultra and an M&K MX-350THX). Both have their advantages but the edge in the sub-20Hz area definitely goes to the SVS. The M&K seems to do best in the 35-55HZ range. Interestingly, when calibrating with Audyssey Pro the program identified that my two sub-woofers were out of phase! Having different control panels, I had assumed that Phase=0 (on the SVS) and Phase = "+" (on the M&K) meant the same thing. However, when Aud Pro warned me, after completing the measurements for the all-critical "Position 1" that my Subs were exhibiting a phase issue, I switched the M&K from Phase= "+" to Phase = "-" and recalibrated Position "1". This time there was no phase error message and I then proceeded with the other 11 points.

The resulting graphs clearly showed a flat LFE curve (rolling off at about 80-100Hz) so the 62Hz dip was handled quite nicely without the need for an SMS-1 intervention. I now think that the 62Hz dip may have been the result of some out of phase interactions and that the main thing that the SMS-1 was doing in its equalization process was to "manage" the dip with several frequency & timing course corrections. And since I had the SMS-1 in play the first time I did the Audyssey Pro calibration several months ago the reason that Aud Pro didn't detect any out of phase SW errors at that time was because the action of the SMS-1 masked the fact that the switch on the M&K was in the wrong position. And who knows what other wrenches the SMS-1 threw into the Aud Pro calibration? This is clearly a case of addition by subtraction (removing the SMS-1) because, to use an analogy, two wrongs don't necessarily make a right (or at least are not the best solution.)

So Chris, Kevin and anyone else reading this thread - it looks like the best course of action is not to multitask - at least not in the world of equalization. And Chris, one other quick question regarding the latest build of Audyssey Pro MultEQ2.5. While I was on the Audyssey installers' site I noticed that their is a slightly later "build" (175) than my installed "build" (something in the 160's). Should I have updated my existing MultEQ 2.5 to the latest build before re-calibrating my 3808ci? I wanted to keep things as constant as possible because I was looking to compare the before and after effects of removing the SMS-1. Obviously, I'm going to upgrade to build 175 now and use it in the future. I'm also sure that all existing earlier build data will incorporate seamlessly with build 175, right? Looking over the "what's new" listing I see that 2.5 now supports the Denon 5308 and their new pre/pro as well as some UI enhancements but it didn't appear that it changed the basic implementation of the entire Aud Pro calibration. Any advice on all of this or am I on the right track?

So there you have it. Things are sounding better than ever and MultEQ works best (and points out errors) when left to do it's thing without any competing processes. After CEDIA 2008 I'll probably be looking to consolidate a lot of my HT equipment into either the Denon pre/pro or maybe the 5308ci so it's good to know that Audyssey is on the case.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Robert- Thanks for doing that comparison.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Robert,
I have to agree with everything you just wrote up. I just did an Audyssey Pro Calibration on an Integra 9.8 that had a Behringer BFD in line on the sub ( I did the BFD setup about a year ago ) and when I did the Pro cal I removed the BFD. I have to say that both the customer and I thought is was a better improvement on the sub then the BFD. I personally am not real crazy about filter stacking...I always feel that one can counter act the other.

Just my .02
RayJr

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Hi, RayJr.!

Yes, I'm firmly in the camp that believes that stacked filtering causes more problems than it solves. I don't know what the Velodyne guys at CEDIA were thinking. My SMS-1 is no longer in the loop and my response curve is flatter than ever, especially in the low end. Thanks for the confirmation with another tale from the trenches.

Take care. (Sorry we never linked up at EMA. Will you be going to HTF-LA in October?)

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Robert,
I will be at the LA meet...I live about 45 minutes from Universal city.
I may be offering a small get together at my house during the event.
May be we can meet at EMA.

RayJr

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

To confirm somthing I read on the Audyssey website and a some general questions:

If my sub has a "LFE by-pass" setting and I am not using my SMS-1 in the picture, I should readjust the distance setting to the actual distance versus the longer distance that the Audyssey sets?

If I implement the SMS-1, I should leave the distance setting alone?

Also, I tried to find a listing of authorized Pro calibrators in my area, but there is nowhere on the Audyssey site to find this information. If we can't purchase and use the equipment, then the Audyssey website needs to have a way to find authorized calibrators by zip code or area code or something. EDIT - I see that you are to e-mail Audyssey to get this information. I guess I don't understand why I would by the equipment and pay someone else to use it, don't calibrators usually own the equipment and you just pay them to do the work? It can't be that difficult to use....

Thank you,
Mike

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

If you send Audyssey an email...they can get the Installer info you need.
I know that there is at least 2 in the LA , CA..area.

RayJr

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Mike,

I had similar questions regarding an SMS-1 and Audyssey co-existence scenario in my HT and received different answers from different people. Initially (in Fall, 2007 when I received my Audyssey Pro equipment package) I tried what Velodyne had recommended - leave the SMS-1 as is and add the Audyssey Pro calibration on top of it. However, after about 4 months of listening I wasn't completely satisfied with the bass. It sometimes sounded great, but at other times sounded overbearing. Initially I attributed this to variations in source material (which as we know can be all over the place in terms of LFE, etc.) but I wasn't satisfied with the lack of overall consistent performance.

After asking a lot more questions (here and from other knowledgeable people) the common thread seemed to be, "I'll bet the two equalizations are competing with each other and affecting each other. Why not remove everything except the Audyssey Pro and see how it sounds?" I had nothing to lose (and a lot to gain as it turns out) so I proceeded as my earlier posts outline.

As to the question of setting distances - with an Audyssey Pro Equalization that task is totally automated by the Aud Pro program and settings themselves. The basic idea is to let it do its job. The reason that the physical distances are probably not going to be the same as the "virtual" distances that Audyssey comes up with is because the program takes into account all the sonic characteristics of the room to adjust for the best possible sound given the equipment and the room acoustics. Let your ears convince you what's right - not a tape measure.

And yes, if you want to do the Audyssey Pro calibration yourself you need to become an installer (to get the equipment and the necessary MultEQ SW program). What the consumer purchases from Audyssey (generally from an installer) is a license for his/her particular AVR which then allows the installer to register a unit and get access to the circuitry which turns the receiver from a "regular" Audyssey calibration (done via the receiver's setup menu and included mike) to a "Pro" Audyssey calibration. The Pro version is more finely tuned (more test points and more sophisticated algorithms) and includes the very important (and very impressive) dynamic equalization parameter (if your receiver supports this.) For those not wishing to become installers to get Audyssey Pro there is no need to purchase any additional equipment or software - just a license for your AVR and the services of an installer who has the proper equipment and software to get the job done.

Ray,

I probably won't be going to EMA (schedule conflict in June) but I look forward to seeing you in LA in October.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Robert,

Thank you for the response, I will be interested to see how long it takes the Audyssey folks to respond to my e-mail inquiring about certified calibrators in my area.

My Pre/Pro (Onkyo DTR-9.8) does not have the Dynamic EQ, I believe except for the outboard Audyssey the only ones to have this are Denon receivers.

Mike

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Interesting that you should mention this. When I was at CEDIA last year I was looking at the new Integra Pre/Pro as a possible component and found some issues with the response time when dealing with HDMI among other things. Then when I went to the Audyssey training I also noticed that the Onkyo and Integra units, while offering Audyssey were not dynamic equalization capable. When I asked the technician why he mentioned something about the processing speed not being able to handle the complex instructions of the dynamic equalization implementation. I still wonder whether there is an correlation in all this. (?) Maybe Chris could provide some concrete information. That's why I'm currently recommending Denon units to people serious about Audyssey Pro (no, I don't own stock in either company )

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

I am hoping someone knows what the problem is, but I am just trying to run the set up on my new Onkyo 905, and I am getting an error on my center channel, i have no idea what the problem is, the speaker is quite audible in sending out the signal, but i keep getting the same error.

Does anyone know what might be causing this?

to be more specific i get a speaker detect error on the center channel only.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

That's a question probably best handled by Chris of Audyssey. Hopefully he'll know the answer. I'm only familiar with Audyssey interactions with Denon products so I don't know if there are any inherent differences in the MultEQ SW for different brands of AVRs. It must be frustrating to be getting a "speaker detect" error for a channel that you can clearly hear is providing sound output.

A quick question: Was there any additional information in the error message? Anything about polarity, etc. I've had a couple of those messages in my experience with Denon products but in each case it was "user error" (in other words, the nut behind the wheel ) and a simple adjustment of the wiring or the phase (in the case of a Subwoofer error) solved the issue. Another thought: Maybe a loose connection to the center channel is being picked up by the Audyssey mike but not your ears? Just a thought.

Good luck on reaching resolution with this issue.