Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al. - Page 9

Onkyo TS-SR608 - Right and Left Channels Out of Phase in Stereo Mode

 

I recently purchased an Onkyo TX-SR608 receiver and have had the following problem.

 

Prior to Audyssey programming, the receiver plays fine in the Stereo mode.  When playing a CD with a vocalist, the vocals are perfectly imaged in the center between the right and left speakers.  After Audyssey progamming, the vocals are no longer centered.  They are very hard to locate anywhere in space, which usually indicates that the right and left speakers are out of phase.  I spoke with Onkyo and they told me the receiver was defective.  Amazon replaced the receiver, but the replacement does the exact same thing.  I spoke with Onkyo again and they said that they had not heard of this issue before and will hopefully be looking into it.  I also have told Audyssey about this and am waiting for a response.

 

In the meantime, I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this problem or if anyone who is familiar with Audyssey has any ideas.  

 

Thanks. 

Hey Steve,

 

If you haven't already, check out the Audyssey Guide linked in my signature.  Read through it and see if perhaps you were doing something incorrectly.

 

If the guide doesn't answer your questions, we can help, but we'll need to know more about your setup....

 

BTW - Audyssey does not change the phase of your speakers.  It only reports if it finds what it 'thinks' are phase problems.

Thanks for the help David.

 

I am not sure how to access your Audyssey Guide.  My literacy in this regard is limited and I need some help.  I have read the TX-SR608 manual multiple times and have done the Audyssey setup just as many.  I can't find anything I am doing wrong.  I have reverified that there is a definite phase change between the right and left speakers with the Audyssey 2EQ(not MultEQ) and without.  With the Audyssey removed, in the stereo mode the center image between the right and left speakers seems to be perfect.  It does not matter what the source is(CD or vinyl LP).  With the Audyssey 2EQ programming,  there is virtually no center image between the right and left speakers in the stereo mode, again with either digital(CD) or analog(LP) sources.  I tried reversing the speaker wire terminals on the left speaker and the center image came back on all sources.  Sounds just like it did before Audyssey 2EQ programming, but without the frequency balance improvements.  In addition, I have run the HiFi News Test LP speaker phase test 3 times as follows:

 

1.  No Audyssey 2EQ programming    -    passed test

2.  With Audyssey 2EQ programming  -    test failed, speakers out of phase

3.  With Audyssey 2EQ progamming, with speaker leads reversed on one speaker  -  passed test

 

These tests confirm everything I am hearing.

 

My system consists of 5 Anthony Gallo Acoustic Nucleus speakers and an Anthony Gallo Acoustics MPS 150 powered subwoofer.

The Nucleus speakers are singe driver speakers and have no crossover that might confuse Audyssey with regard to phase.  Placement is a vitually "perfect" 5.1 speaker arrangement.

 

Again, thanks David. 

 

Hi Steve,

Here's the direct link from my signature. It should open a PDF file. This file was created as a group effort (on another HT Forum) and with input from the Audyssey CEO himself.

Have a look at it and I will PM Chris at Audyssey since it seems like he's stopped monitoring this thread.

Hi David,

I read your Audyssey Guide.  It is extremely thorough and clearly/beautifully written.  I still can't find anything that I did wrong.  I did some of the things suggested in the the guide on my own, including setting the microphone/tripod just above the back of the couch to minimize reflections.  Audyssey 2EQ allows measurement at three positions, so they were all taken on the couch about 2 ft apart.  The couch is centered between the right and left speakers.  The Audyssey distance measurements from both the right and left speaker is 10 ft which is very close to the actual distances.  The left speaker is close to a corner and the right speaker is along a straight wall(no corner nearby) but has a leather chair that is fairly close to the right of the speaker.  As a result, I would expect that the compensation curves generated by Audyssey 2EQ to be quite different for these speakers.

 

Thanks again so much for your help. 

I would go with:

Fronts - 80Hz
Center - 80Hz
Surrounds - 80Hz
Back surrounds - 120Hz

Depending on your receiver, you could try the center and fronts a little lower (maybe 60Hz). Just remember the lower you go, the harder you amp has to work. Also, the newest Audyssey has better filters for the satellites so you can go a bit lower and still keep the better correction.

I have had contact with Chris at Audyssey over the weekend and Onkyo today.  Chris stated that there is no way Audyssey 2EQ programming can cause the right to left out of phase condition I am experiencing in the Stereo mode.  In short, the problem is that stereo imaging is fine prior to Audyssey 2EQ programming and is gone after programming.   If Audyssey cannot cause this condition then it must be caused by Onkyo's implementation of Audyssey.  Last week Bob Elder at Onkyo Product Support opened up a ticket on this issue.  I understood that Onkyo was going to test for this in the lab.  I spoke with Bob today and asked him if the testing had been done.  He did not answer the question directly, but again said that Onkyo had not heard of this problem before.  I asked him if Onkyo was interested in checking out my receiver(the second one to exhibit this problem) and he said "No" and said I should return it to Amazon.  Since Amazon does not require any detailed description of the defect, I doubt if the receiver will ever get analyzed for this problem.  In summary, I don't believe that Onkyo is interested in addressing this problem.  Based on the serial numbers of the two receivers I've had, they were manufactured in October and November, 2010.  

 

I will return the second receiver and requested authorization from an Amazon customer service rep. this morning.  He asked if I thought the receiver should be pulled from the Amazon website as he had authorization to do so.  I told him that my initial knee jerk response was "yes", but told him not to.  I am not 100% sure that this is not somehow my fault, although I don't believe it is.

 

This has been a disappointing and frustrating experience and I will add that Onkyo's Product Support needs improvement.  To anyone considering buying an Onkyo TX-SR608 receiver, I can only say, "Buyer beware".   

I recently purchased the Onkyo TX-SR608. After carefully reading David's AudysseySetupGuide.pdf, Audyssey 2EQ gives the following results for my 5.1 system:

- Speaker distances are correct.

- Front, Center, Surround speaker crossover = 150Hz.

- LPF of LFE= 120Hz

 

The speakers are Canton Movie 155QX. As specified by Canton:

- Front, Center, Surround speakers: 65 .. 25000 Hz

- Subwoofer: 30 .. 140 Hz. (volume control at mid point, frequency knob to max)

 

Question:

In the present discussion thread, crossover is generally mentioned as being around 80Hz. Why mine is so high (150 Hz), especially in regard to the official specification (65 Hz) ? I tried several times Audyssey 2EQ, but always obtained same result.

Hi John,

Official specs are not measured in your room. Measure your speakers in a large anechoic chamber like the manufacturer did, and it 'may' get close to what they claim. Audyssey is measuring how your speakers perform in your room (which has a very big impact).

The next thing I have to ask (since the manufacturer website omits this), is what is the tolerance of the stated spec? Audyssey looks for the -3db roll off point and adjusts from there. Since Canton does not mention this, they could be using anything. There is a big difference between -10db at 65hz. and -3db at 65hz.

The 80hz recommendation is a good starting point, but if your speakers can't handle it, you are making things worse. One thing you could try is moving the speakers. Put them closer to a wall can help. It may be that your listening area was in a null around 150hz and this caused the measurement to be so high. Moving the speakers may help with this as well.

Lastly, have you listened to your speakers since you measured? They may sound pretty good just as they are. Don't get too hung up on numbers. If it sounds good, then your done.

Hi David,

 

Thank you for the explanation. Presently, as configured by Audyssey, the system sounds pretty good for me. You are right about numbers. I highly appreciate your answer.

Hi John,

 

How does your system perform in the stereo mode playing a CD, after Audyssey programming?  Is there proper stereo imaging(voices centered between the right and left speaker, etc.)?  I am curious because I have had a stereo imaging problem on 2 out of 2 Onkyo TX-SR608's.

Hi Steve,

 

As far as I can hear, the stereo imaging is good for me. Did you check that distance and level calibration are the same for the right and left speakers ?

Hi John,

 

It is good to hear that your 608 is performing properly.  Audyssey measured the distance from both the right and left speakers almost perfectly(both are 10 ft.) and the levels are within 1db.  The speakers are out of phase after doing the Audyssey calibration/programming.  How far out I don't know, but far enough that the stereo imaging comes back if I reverse the leads at one of the speakers.  Onkyo Product Support basically said they don't have this problem so I am kind of stuck because I will use the receiver for listening to CD's and LP's in addition to Blu-ray and 5.1 TV.  I suspect that both receivers I had were defective.  I purchased the first receiver at Amazon and they took it back and shipped me the second one.  The second one lasted long enough for me to verify it had the same problem and then it "died".  I have now ordered a Denon and will give that a try. 

 

I hope your receiver performs as it should and does it for a long time.

 

Thanks,

 

Steve

 

 

 

The Denon AVR-1911 that I just received does not have the "Right/Left Channels Out of Phase in Stereo Mode After Audyssey Programming" problem I experienced with the two Onkyo receivers. On another forum, another person experienced the same problem with a Onkyo TX-SR507, purchased in 2009.  Indicates that this issue is not a narrow-time window problem on just 2010 receivers.

Hello everyone. Being interested in MultEQ Audissey calibration I have read all pages. I have high hopes in purchasing an new AVR with MultEQ(proud owner of Onkyo TX-SR507 from 2009). I do not experience the phase shift problem in stereo other forum members mentioned here. I did and redid Audissey 2EQ calibration with my 507 many times now.
What surprises me is that no one mentioned the drastic lack of low frequencies because, in my experience, reversing phase does that also.
Sorry for the unlucky ones.

This thread prompted me to join. Please advise if my question is better elsewhere.
When I bought my TX-SR608 6 months ago I connected my
- Sony CD player (CDP-CE405) via analog input (no CD digital out).
- Stereo speakers (yes old but not bad) SEAS Interdyn 35.
- Audyssey on (calibrated multiple times)

The sound quality was a great disappointment. My old National stereo amp was far better.
When I played the audio CDs using a cheap DVD player with digital out there was a dramatic improvement in audio quality. The Audyssey seemed to work fine.

With WDTV live HDMI out and a DVD player (digital coax audio) the Audyssey works as expected.

No lab testing here but it does suggest that analog audio input and Audyssey have a problem as suggested in this thread.
Any comments would be appreciated.

I've also heard that Onkyo's aren't the best with an analog input source. Not sure why. Have you tried using another input instead of the CD input? And I wonder if one of these cheap analog to SPDIF converters would help things? But I'd be leary of adding a $30 device between a nice cd player and pretty good little receiver.

The issue I had with my SR-608 was not dependent on analog vs. digital input. The analog output of my turntable/phono preamp and the digital output of my CD player both resulted in the same right/left out of phase condition when the receiver was playing in the stereo mode. When I replaced the receiver with the Denon AVR-1911 the problem went away with the identical source components and material.

Hi,

I´m new to this forum and have a doubt about how to set up audissey.

My setup:

Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR-609
fronts: Paradigm ATOM V5 (pair)
center: Paradigm CC-170 V2
surrounds: Paradigm MICRO V2 (pair)
Sub: Velodyne Impact 12

After Audyssey 2EQ calibration (3 positions, following the guide posted by David Willow) I have the following crossover configuration:

Fronts - 50Hz
Center - 50Hz
Surrounds - 60Hz

As far as I read at this forum, and Paradigm speaker specs, I should go with 75-80 Hz for these speakers.

The doubt is: to leave the values filled by audissey or to raise the Fronts, Center and Surrounds to 80Hz (or any other value) ???

Any suggestions will be apreciated !!!

Thanks in advance,

Hi Silvio,

The location of the speakers in your room makes a big difference in the response measurements. The closer they get to the wall, the lower they will go.

It never hurts to raise the crossover. Try it at 60, 70, and 80 and see what you like best. The only negative I see is 2EQ does not apply filters for your sub so it is it basically uncorrected. So by keeping the crossovers where they are your getting more of the frequency range EQ'd.

I would personally try at the higher crossover and see how it performs.

Thanks for the prompt answer Willow!
I'll try those values out and see how they perform.

Just to see if I understood those crossover values:
The lower I set up the speaker crossover values, more they will play the "lower tones", so more they'll be "helping" the sub.

The higher I set the crossover, more the sub will work

Is that correct??

Thanks again

Yes, higher numbers mean more redirected to the sub.

Think of it this way. When you set the crossover at 80hz, you are telling the AVR to send everything below 80hz to the sub (it's not a hard cutoff but you get the idea).

BTW - You shouldn't help the sub. It's the other way around - the sub will help take the load off of the amp in your receiver.

yes