Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al. - Page 5

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Chris,

Thanks so much for your advice here...greatly appreciated I'm sure by all.

One question I have. I'm using Klipsch bookshelves. Ive read to try and keep crossover at around 80Hz. After using Audyssey it sets the fronts to 40Hz and center to 80Hz. Should I keep it as such or do you think recalibration is needed?

Thanks again,
JP

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Dear Chris,

Please don't get me wrong, I believe Audyssey is just a brilliant system!

My main concern, nevertheless, is to get the maximum out of it for my particular case and, if you do not mind, I'd like to ask for your additional opinion on the matter described below...

Firstly, all I care about is to get the best possible set up for the Main Listening Position (MLP) only.

Secondly, as I understand the logic of the Audyssey system, it tries to generate some equalizer curve, which would allow to avoid some parasite frequencies for each and every set up position (e.g. 1-8) used.

So, let say we have a frequency pattern ABCD, which is perfect for the Main Listening Position. However, if frequency A is not good for position 2, then it is being either cut off or decreased, which is good for position 2, but is affects the frequencies reaching the MLP, i.e. the MLP suffers from it.

So, once we run through all 8 positions, we do get the equalizer curve, which makes all 8 folks in the theatre enjoy the show, however, at expense of the Main Guy sitting at the MLP...

I hope it all makes sense... Please correct me, if my logic is wrong...

I would greatly appreciate your recommendation as to the best way to set up the MLP only. So far, I have done it based on 3 points (the main one plus 2 on each side about 50-60 cm from the MLP). I must say, it does sound very very nice! However, if there might be a better way, I would really like to know it ))).

To ALL: I've got the best result after having:

- turned off all and every system in the room with a ventilator/cooler;
- turned off TV!!! (42" Panasonic full HD works quietly, but it does make some background noise...); the auto set up can be done based on indicators on 3808;
- avoided using the master Remote Control of 3808, which makes a high frequency squeeking noise, when the blue screen is on... The secondary remote was used instead...

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

JP,

If the Klipsch speakers are placed near the wall it's common for them to show bass extension due to the help they get from the wall surface. I would recommend setting them to 80 Hz manually. No recalibration is needed if you do that.

Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Rolan


MultEQ doesn't really work that way. The first thing to understand is that "position" doesn't necessarily mean "where people sit". For example seats far off-axis or near the side walls are common, but one should not measure there because the drop-off in high frequencies that most speakers have off-axis causes unnatural correction results.

The core of the MultEQ method is how the multiple measurements are combined. It does so by trying to avoid exactly what you mention above. So, after all the measurements are taken an analysis of the patterns in each position is performed and then the measurements are grouped into clusters with similar problems. A representative response is synthesized for each cluster that contains the acoustical problems found in that part of the room with the appropriate weighting (bigger and more common problems get more weight). Then the representative responses from all the clusters are combined to synthesize one final room representation that contains all the appropriately-weighted information about the problems in the area measured. Furthermore, this is done in the time domain so information about reflections is captured. The MultEQ filter for each channel is then created by inverting that combined response and applying certain psychoacoustic rules to maximize the correction while keeping the filter length small (to avoid taking up too much DSP processing).



This is a good approach, but I would recommend taking more measurements. Take three more parallel measurements about 50 cm in front of the first three. Then take the final two closer to the MLP (25 cm to the left and right and slightly forward forming a triangle around where your head would be).

Let us know how that works out.

Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Dear Chris,

thank you for your reply and the recommendations.


Presently, I seem to have the "lucky curve" I am most happy with and I would hate to lose it

1. Can you please confirm that, if I copy the Audyssey curve to the 'Manual' file in 3808, I would get exactly the same equalizer curve saved there and not some simplistic representation?

2. Also, as i mentioned before, in my case, the set up is made with only 2 front speakers hooked up (all times I tried 5.1 Audyssey auto set up, the 2 channel Stereo mode would not sound as nice, as auto set up run with only 2 front speakers initially hooked up and all other speakers unhooked; in 5.1 mode it does sound nice (perhaps the sub and the center/surround speakers compensate for the missing frequencies), but why would I listen to a music concert in 5.1? I mean, I see a concert scene in front of me and hearing some sounds from the surround speakers located behind me does not sound too natural, right?...).

So, do you believe your advice to make more measurements still applies to the auto set up with only 2 front speakers?

Sorry to bug you with such questions, which would probably be more applicable to a set up of 2 channel stereo amplifier...

Brgds,

highliner
Odessa, Ukraine

P.S. there are quite a few folks from Russia/Ukraine following our discussion with interest...

P.P.S. My personal opinion, you deserve a monument for first developing this kind of system and, then, for convincing the manufacturers to have it included into their production units. No kidding.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Highliner,


No, the copy to Manual does not preserve the same curve. Manual is not a mode supported by Audyssey. It is a very crude approximation of the many hundreds of MultEQ filter coefficients by 9 parametric bands. Also, all time domain correction benefits of the MultEQ FIR filters is lost by moving to Manual EQ.


That is very strange. The MultEQ filters are completely independent in each channel. Thus the front channels will have identical filters whether you run 2.0 (2.1) or 5.1 calibration. No sharing of signals across channels is performed by MultEQ as that would compromise imaging. Perhaps the perceived differences are due to different bass management settings in the two cases?

I also disagree with the notion that "a concert is in front so I should only listen from the front". In a real concert hall, a very large portion of the sound energy arriving at your ears is from reflections that occur from the side walls, the ceiling and other surfaces. These arrive within a few tens of milliseconds after the direct sound and have been found to greatly influence human perception of width and depth. After those first few milliseconds, sound is still bouncing around the room, but now the reflections become more random and are not identified with a specific direction. This is called the reverberant field and greatly contributes to the richness of sound. This is what distinguishes the best acoustic spaces from the bad ones. In psychoacoustic research it has been shown that we can not perceive reflections and reverberation if it is coming from the same direction as the direct sound. So, playing all that information from the front speakers only prevents you from enjoying the space in which the music was recorded.

Unfortunately, the reproduction of music over surround systems isn't always ideal. This is due to many reasons including the lack of understanding by some recording engineers of how to use microphones in the space and how to mix for multichannel. The film industry is decades ahead of the music industry in that respect. Many of the simulated surround modes suffer from the same issues. But there are great surround music recordings that can almost make you believe you are in the performance space.


Yes! More measurements will give the algorithm more information with which to work and you will notice differences, particularly in the low frequencies. Just don't measure too far away from the center position as I described in my previous post.

Chris

PS. I really appreciate your nice words about our work and our products

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Dear Chris,

Thank you for all your kind and detailed explanation! It is greatly appreciated!

I am still enjoying the option of set up I presently have and will give it more tries later on...

You are right in that the low freqs seem to be on the low side, but the articulation of all other frequencies are so great and the sound flows so effortlessly and with such nice air, that I am ready to sacrifise some low freqs for that (at that, increasing the level of bass through tone control is always an option).

A silly question, if I may, how critical is it to use a tripod for the mic? Holding it in one's hand (provided that the speakers are not blocked by one's body) is not a good option?

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Holding the mic is not recommended. The handling noise can affect the performance at low frequencies. A tripod is really the best way to mount the mic for measurements.

Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Chris, I need your help. I purchased a Denon 2808 last November for use as a pre-pro. The Audyssey programme has given my system a shot in the arm and it has never sounded better, that is until yesterday.

About a month ago I replaced my Sony 60”SXRD with a 70” and then recalibrated my sound system. I have Martin Logan Aerius for LF and RF and their Cinema centre. It sounded great. However over the weekend I read your earlier post about using setting up positions 7&8 to form a triangle with your head in the primary seating position. As I listen to a lot of music on SACD MC, I decided to give it a try. There have been no changes to my listening room since my last Audyssey calibration. However, after this calibration the sound is now harsh and bright.

The crossover went from 40 for the Centre and 110 for the surrounds to 100 for both. Centre level went up from -3 to +1.5. More importantly there is now a very hard sharp sound across the entire front sound stage.

EQ for FL went from -1 AT 500Hz to +0.5, from1 at 1kHz to +3.5 and while previously 2, 4, 8 and 16 were+2.5, +5.5,+5.5 and +3.5, they are all now+6.

For FR, 1kHz has gone from -4 to+2.5, 2 from-4.5 to +6 and 4,8and 16 from+6, +5.5 and +3 , all to +6 again. It is not surprising that the sound is so bright. I have run the programme two more times using my earlier set up positions but it always comes back to these settings.

Why has the top end been recalibrated to max high frequency? What did I do wrong and how to I get back to the old settings. Please help.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Hi John,

The symptoms you are describing sound like something has happened to your microphone. Humidity can cause it to exhibit a drop in high frequencies and that would fool MultEQ into boosting more there. Or it could just be damaged. How was it stored?

Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Thanks for coming back to me,Chris.The mike was stored in its box in the drawer in a coffee table in my lounge/home theatre. Here in Sydney we have just gone to winter mode and May (when I did my first recalibration with the 70 ' screen )has been one of the driest on record with low humidity.The Denon head office is only about 15 mins away so if you really think this is the cause, I might get them to check it over.Will give them a ring and let you know how I go. Cheers.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

John- Have you tried the calibration a few different times, maybe moving the mike slightly from the positions you used the 1st time? I know that on AVS, sometimes what didn't work once, worked the 2nd or 3rd time just by repeating the cal.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Yes, Kevin I I have recalibrated,now, many times from slightly different positions.Thanks for the input.

Yesterday,Denon suggested a reboot and start afresh. This I did and again ended up with the same readings after another recalibration.Incidently, it has been raining here for the last few days but the humidity seems nothing out of the ordinary.However I now think it is a malfunctioning software problem.

The EQ for both the FL and RF speakers is now exactly the same and does not show any alteration when going from Audyssey to Flat. There should be some change surely.The centre and surrounds also seem locked to one curve even when I change from Flat to Audyssey although each surround shows a different basic EQ pattern.
Does this seem right, Chris?

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

No, this doesn't seem right at all. Did you try with a new mic?

Also, can you please re-check the connections from the amps to the speakers? I want to be sure that all the drivers are functioning and are connected.

Something is killing the high frequencies and the only two things that can do that are the mic or the speakers/connections.

Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Thanks Chris for the help. Yesterday Denon downloaded the latest soft ware and I recalibrated. Same result as before. I left the mic with them but will check today whether they checked it and follow thru with your suggestions this weekend. Will get back to you as soon as possible.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Chris, following your advice I now have a new silver mike and the latest software downloaded into the Denon 2808. I have now recalibrated and while it is much better,I still have that HF lift on my FL and FR speakers.

The bottom end is nearly back to the earlier settings, I have the two cross over points back,to the centre and surrounds and the centre vol is now back to -2 instead of +3. The centre and surround sound great but while 1kHz has gone back to +3 instead of+6, 4, 8 and 16 kHz are still at +6 for both front speakers.

I had to replace the FL speaker cable as I broke a bayonet connector when removing the Denon to take it in for downloading and while it was being repaired, borrowed a length of Audioquest bi-wire to replace it. I could hear no difference. To double check the speakers were working properly, I deleted Auyssey and went to manual after setting all frequency points back to 0. I then ran the “voice around the room “ test from the old Video Essentials disc and followed that with pink noise from the BD of HD Basics. I checked that with a sound pressure meter. There was no loss of HF or volume.

I then decided to check the distance settings and while LS was spot on, RS was short by 8 cm, Centre to far by 4, the FL and FR were both far out by nearly 20cms. Could that be the cause?

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Hi John,

It sounds like your original mic did indeed develop a problem.

The distances are set for the low frequency drivers, so please make sure you are measuring from the woofer to the listening position. In any case, the distance numbers do not affect the filters in any way.

The ML Aerius speakers are notorious for a high frequency roll-off that is about -6 dB above 12 kHz. So, I am not too surprised to see the MultEQ filters trying to correct that. Are the numbers you are reporting for Audyssey or Flat target?

Also, keep in mind that the Aerius is rather sensitive to vertical positioning. You can experiment by moving the mic up by a few inches to see what you get. Or better yet, take some of the 8 measurements at ear height and 2-3 at a slightly higher position.

Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Thanks for those tips, Chris, but last night I think I had an idea.
It may have been the fridge's thermostat switching on. It is now, since my kitchen remodeling, about 5 feet behind the primary listening position.I have the door between the kitchen and listening area half closed in the usual manner of when I watch films when I calibrated. Before then it was behind the main wall between the two and that could have masked the effect. It was in the new position early May when Audssey calibrated correctly and well may not have turned on during the recalibration .I now recal lit coming on during my last calibration
It's now about7am here and when I return from meetings in the early afternoon, I will recalibrate with the fridge turned OFF. Will keep you advised.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

I think this is one flaw of Audyssey. The fact that it's so sensitive to ambient noise during calibration. (Make the test tones louder, then the noise floor doesn't matter as much.) With that said, it's already in my head to unplug my DVR and fridge if I get an Audyssey pre/pro.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

MultEQ does listen to the background noise and it does raise the level of the chirps to get the right signal to noise ratio above the noise. That has been there since the first product appeared in 2004. So, if you don't hear the chirps getting louder then background noise is not a problem.

Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Well my great idea didn't work 100%. After recalibrating with the fridge off and from different heights and moving 1,2,3 positions a few centimeters forward, I get the distances nearly spot on(not the 20 cm difference before) and end up with a EQ like early May save the top end.1 kHz is back to 3.5 an there is still the usual +0.5 increase at 4 and 8 kHz but the curve down at 16 to +3.5 has gone.

This makes strings too shrill to my ears but can any more be done?

On Audyssey flat there is only a 0.5 difference at around 125 between the two curves.

Any further ideas,Chris?

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Well after a third recalibration with the new software and mike,I'm getting much better results.With the fridge off,I've gone back the spreading the 8 positions around the seating area in a crescent moon shape and having the mike at different levels as suggested.Distances are now about right and EQ at 1 and 2 kHz have dropped fractionally and at 16 kHz down to 5.5 for the FR.
Most importantly, I am now getting two quite distinct profiles for Audyssey and Audyssey Flat.

The Denon has time delay for manual settings so I have copied across the Flat settings, amended them as per Audyssey EQ and smoothed the top end accordingly.I have friends around tonight for the latest King Kong so my settings will get their first big test.

I suspect the programme was having difficulty withthe HF dispersion of the Martin Logans. Hopefully the Pro version would be better.

I still rate the Audyssey programme as a great step forward and think you would be foolish not to insist upon it when you upgrade. It enabled me to work out the EQ problems in my listening area and gave me a way of correcting them.It's a major advance as I see it.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

This is another good trick to remember!

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

I am new to this forum and i have some audyssey questions. Hopefully chris is still around or anyone that can help. I have polk rti series speakers (7.1) I also have 1 epik caliber (subwoofers). I have a onkyo 805 and i ran audyssey and when i did i placed a small piece of tape on the ground so i know where i placed the tri-pod. I got it sounding perfect THEN the caliber arrived. I then got out the tri-pod and mic and started audyssey. This made not only the bass sound bad but also all the other speakers. I ran audyssey 3 times and it just sounds horrible. My surrounds have hardly any sound anymore and the fronts sound tinggy (treble). I do all eight positions for audyssey with the mic in the same spots so why would it sound differnet each time i run it?

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Jayson,

The most likely reason for this is that Onkyo decides to set your speakers to Full Band using 80 Hz as the criterion. So, if it finds your speakers to roll-off just below 80 Hz it will set them to Full Band and not send any bass from those channels to the subwoofer. It is unfortunate that they do this and they will be changing it in future products, but for now you need to manually set your speakers to Small. This is done by going into the setup menu and selecting a crossover frequency. I suggest you start with 80 Hz.

Make sure that your subwoofer level (on the back of the sub) is at the halfway point or just below it. Also, if your sub has an input that bypasses the internal filters (sometimes called LFE input) then please use that one. If there is no such input, then make sure you turn up the filter knob to the highest possible frequency so that it does not interfere with the measurements and bass management performed in the Onkyo.

Finally, please note that the delays and level trims are calculated from the first measurement position. So, it is critical to start the measurements in the center of the listening area. After that, the order of the measurements does not matter. However, don't think of the measurements as "one in every seat". Many have seats that are far off-center or up against the side walls. Placing the mic there will influence the measurements in a negative way. Start in the center, then move to the left and right by 2-3 feet, then repeat three more measurements parallel to the first three and about 3 feet in front (even if there are no seats there). The last two can be taken closer to the first one as if to form a small triangle where your head will normally be.

I hope this helps resolve your issues.

Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

i do set all the crossovers to 80 and the sub to 100 right when it gets done calculating. this is before i got the epik caliber subwoofer, and Yes audyssey did say my rti8's were full band ( switched to 80). I did not do anything differnet after i got the caliber as far as audyssey is concerned, but the sound from all my speakers including the sub do not sound very good. I am going to try again tonight. I did turn everthing off Frig, fans, etc. any help will be great. thanx in advance

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

^ "Do not sound very good" can often mean "not what I'm used to". Give it some time, unless there's an obvious error. I'm just saying...good sound is not exactly pervasive anywhere these days, you have to work to get it and to get used to it...

I can say for sure that if you follow the simple instructions exactly, with the very minor elaborations provided in this thread, the Audyssey gizmo is surprisingly accurate. I have spent a lot of time in the past doing manual measurements with the usual instruments, and some not so usual, and Audyssey very largely agrees with me (so it must be right, LOL). In fact, it even set everything up exactly how I chose to do it tweaking the "measurement setup" by ear (i.e. to my taste), and it was not exactly what you would call a "normal" config...very weird, and impressive IMO. However, I decided to make the manual adjustments to speaker size and XO recommended in this thread to see how I like that. I do find the sub/bass to be somewhat lower in level than before Audyssey. I would say it sounds more like a music system (my preference actually), and not so much like a LFE system.

This has always been a quandary for me: how to make it easy to switch between LFE for movies and a smooth transition in bass frequencies for music, without having to adjust a bunch of stuff manually. The Denon 3808 I'm using as a pre-pro is new to me, so there may be a good way I haven't found yet. Right now though, I think it would be cool to have quick access to two stored Audyssey "curves", both the same except one is a special LFE mode that "does some stuff" below 40Hz say. I am not even sure what the diff between the Audyssey and Audyssey Flat curves are, except the Audyssey one appears to do more in the LF, but still not the kind of "boost" I was thinking of. Other than that there's not a huge diff in the curves with my speakers.

Anyway, it's all pretty cool and I'm just starting out playing with it.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

I love audyssey i sounded great until i got the new sub. I re-ran audyssey and now i can not get it back where it was before the new sub. I have left the speakers in the same spot and i put tape on the carpet so i can put the mic in the same spot. The tri-pod i use is at the same height so that could not be the issue either. I un-plugged the frig and other items. If this was the sfirst time i ran audyssey i might not tell the differnece but because i have i know what i could sound like.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Jayson,

If you haven't moved anything and your speakers are not set to Full Band then the results should be very close to the first time you ran MultEQ.

I wonder if one of your speakers may have a damaged driver since the last time you calibrated. Do you have a DVD with pink noise? I would suggest playing it from each of the speakers and checking each of the drivers to see if they are producing sound.

Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

The Audyssey curve is Flat from 20 Hz and applies a slight high frequency rolloff at 10 kHz and above. The Audyssey Flat curve is Flat out to 20 kHz. There is no bass boost in either of them and their room correction performance in the bass is identical.

Chris