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2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove - Page 3

post #61 of 415
11/2/07 at 9:58am

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricW
how much longer does Ortiz's contract run for? i'd bet most fans would rather have him than A-Rod. sure he's not good defensively, but who cares? he actually performs in the off-season. if Arod gets $$$, how much does Pappy get?

The Red Sox have a fantastic contract with Ortiz, per year until 2010 at $12.5 million per year, and a club option for 2011.

That said, "not good defensively?" More like a non-factor defensively. Even though traditionally defense has been studied less thoroughly than offense or pitching, there has been plenty of evidence on how crucial it nonetheless is. To disregard it is a mistake. Offensively, their current production is similar. But, I don't see Ortiz maintaining his production into his late 30s as A-Rod will. Guys his size--Mo Vaughn and Cecil Fielder, I'm looking at you--seem to decline (more like falling off a cliff) faster than a guy like A-Rod, who is a physical specimen. This is not to mention his advantage in terms of speed.

Disregarding emotion or irrational dislikes, I would think the vast majority of baseball fans would choose A-Rod over Ortiz as a baseball player.
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post #62 of 415
11/2/07 at 10:04am

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Quote:
Disregarding emotion or irrational dislikes, I would think the vast majority of baseball fans would choose A-Rod over Ortiz as a baseball player.

i agree about the long term, but over the next 5 years (max), i think most would take Pappy over Arod.
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post #63 of 415
11/2/07 at 10:14am

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricW
how much longer does Ortiz's contract run for? i'd bet most fans would rather have him than ARod. sure he's not good defensively, but who cares? he actually performs in the off-season. if Arod gets $$$, how much does Pappy get?

Ortiz will go down as the greatest return for the money in the history of the game. He signed for 12.5 million per season back in 2003. I believe it was a 6 year contract. At the time he said he found his place and he would rather have the comfort of playing for a team and a city that he loves than to go for the big money. Truly refreshing and truly a wonderful guy for the team, the fans and the community. Not to mention his work in his native Dominican Republic.

You can keep A-Rod at 1/3 of what Boras wants. Boston already has its face of the franchise.
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post #64 of 415
11/2/07 at 10:22am

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Tsai
speed.

Disregarding emotion or irrational dislikes, I would think the vast majority of baseball fans would choose A-Rod over Ortiz as a baseball player.

Not in the 9th inning, 2 out, bases loaded, in the 7th game of the World Series they wouldn't. Hell, I wouldn't take A-Rod if that situation was in the regular season. Ortiz will go down as the greatest clutch hitter of his era, if not in baseball history (he has the stats). A-Rod will go down as the guy who came to bat with 37 runners on base in the post season and knocked in none of them. His gaudy regular season stats will mean a lot to a team on the bubble or will put fannies in the seats for a lower tier team, but for perrenial playoff teams, he's a liability; an embarrassment on the field and if you believe the scuttlebut, a cancer in the clubhouse.
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post #65 of 415
11/2/07 at 10:56am

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

I think we need to quantify our terms (just to get this particular debate on even footing).

Based on Eric's question & Kirk's response, I think there are a couple of different issues being discussed.

One is: who do people consider a better all-around baseball player?

Another: which would people prefer to have on their team?

And yet a third: who would you prefer to see at-bat in the post-season or in a tough spot?

For me:

1.) A-Rod.
2.) Ortiz.
3.) Close...but edge to Ortiz.
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post #66 of 415
11/2/07 at 2:35pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Of course, playoff performance is based on a very small sample size. A-Rod's recent subpar performance could easily turn around. When he was with Seattle, he was a big time performer; in a couple of series, including with the Yankees, he had over 1.200 OPS during the series. I believe he's unfairly under the microscope. There was some talk about the dismal performance of Derek Jeter during this postseason, but still, the majority of people rather focus on A-Rod's performance than Jeter's.

Re: next five years
If I were a GM, I would much rather have Ortiz's contract than A-Rod's. But that's not the same as saying who the better player is. As indicated in my previous post, I believe A-Rod is superior, because their offensive production is very close, but A-Rod has more to offer than just at the plate. And the truth is, despite Barry Bonds, Tony Gwynn and Roger Clemens, a player with the age north of 32 tends to slow down in the history of baseball. In that sense, I'm not so sure Ortiz's production in 2010 will still equal A-Rod's. I could see A-Rod hitting at the age of 36, but I would worry about Big Papi.

Re: big time performers
Just as I got carried away a little bit by Beckett's postseason performance, I would also say that Ortiz has a long way to coming close to The Babe's 10 World Series appearances of .326/.467/.744. Great performer Ortiz is, but the greatest performer he ain't.
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post #67 of 415
11/2/07 at 3:22pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Tsai
Of course, playoff performance is based on a very small sample size. A-Rod's recent subpar performance could easily turn around. When he was with Seattle, he was a big time performer; in a couple of series, including with the Yankees, he had over 1.200 OPS during the series. I believe he's unfairly under the microscope. There was some talk about the dismal performance of Derek Jeter during this postseason, but still, the majority of people rather focus on A-Rod's performance than Jeter's.

Re: next five years
If I were a GM, I would much rather have Ortiz's contract than A-Rod's. But that's not the same as saying who the better player is. As indicated in my previous post, I believe A-Rod is superior, because their offensive production is very close, but A-Rod has more to offer than just at the plate. And the truth is, despite Barry Bonds, Tony Gwynn and Roger Clemens, a player with the age north of 32 tends to slow down in the history of baseball. In that sense, I'm not so sure Ortiz's production in 2010 will still equal A-Rod's. I could see A-Rod hitting at the age of 36, but I would worry about Big Papi.

Re: big time performers
Just as I got carried away a little bit by Beckett's postseason performance, I would also say that Ortiz has a long way to coming close to The Babe's 10 World Series appearances of .326/.467/.744. Great performer Ortiz is, but the greatest performer he ain't.
Yep, some people are definitely shortchanging Arod and one day we will see him have a great postseason performance again. As far as Arod's contract demands, I won't demean any person's attempt to maximize his earnings potential. With that being said, I agree with the Yankee management's decision to pass on any further negotiations with him even if it causes the Yankees to take a step back next season.
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post #68 of 415
11/2/07 at 4:37pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Quote:
One is: who do people consider a better all-around baseball player?

Another: which would people prefer to have on their team?

And yet a third: who would you prefer to see at-bat in the post-season or in a tough spot?

For me:

1.) A-Rod.
2.) Ortiz.
3.) Close...but edge to Ortiz.
Ditto.
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post #69 of 415
11/2/07 at 5:45pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Robert: I think, although the Yanks now have a void at third base to fill, A-Rod did the team a favor by opting out of his contract. They will get better without him.

I'm surprised to read there was discussion about moving Cano to third. Apparently that is now not on the table.

And, Kirk: Nobody'll ever be better than the Babe.
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post #70 of 415
11/2/07 at 5:57pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Quote:
A-Rod did the team a favor by opting out of his contract. They will get better without him.
Yep, Lowell in Pinstripes
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post #71 of 415
11/2/07 at 6:06pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Martin
Yep, Lowell in Pinstripes

THAT'S not what I meant!

I figure even if the Sox offer a good 4 to 5 year deal, the Yanks will offer Lowell more money at six years (or something of the sort). Then it comes down to how much he means it about how much he likes playing in Boston!
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post #72 of 415
11/2/07 at 8:54pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Quote:
Then it comes down to how much he means it about how much he likes playing in Boston!
You mean like Johnny Damon?
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post #73 of 415
11/2/07 at 9:03pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon
Robert: I think, although the Yanks now have a void at third base to fill, A-Rod did the team a favor by opting out of his contract. They will get better without him.

I'm surprised to read there was discussion about moving Cano to third. Apparently that is now not on the table.

And, Kirk: Nobody'll ever be better than the Babe.
Cano played third base in the minors and BA always thought he would eventually end up there as he got older and filled out more.
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post #74 of 415
11/3/07 at 3:02pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon
I think we need to quantify our terms (just to get this particular debate on even footing).

Based on Eric's question & Kirk's response, I think there are a couple of different issues being discussed.

One is: who do people consider a better all-around baseball player?

Another: which would people prefer to have on their team?

And yet a third: who would you prefer to see at-bat in the post-season or in a tough spot?

For me:

1.) A-Rod.
2.) Ortiz.
3.) Close...but edge to Ortiz.

I would agree with you on #1. #2 is a toss-up..I might give the edge to
A-Rod. But I would give Ortiz a big edge on #3.

Quote:
Of course, playoff performance is based on a very small sample size. A-Rod's recent subpar performance could easily turn around.
It could but, from watching him the last few years, it seemed that he, more than a lot of hitters, thrived on hitting mistakes, and didn't do so well on good pitches...the latter being something one is more likely to see in the post-season.

But I don't think the Yankees will necessarily be better without him - especially during the regular season.

Quote:
Cano played third base in the minors and BA always thought he would eventually end up there as he got older and filled out more.
That may be true but he said he's comfortable at second and doesn't want to switch. In any case, even if they move him, then they have a hole to fill at second.
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post #75 of 415
11/4/07 at 1:12pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
That may be true but he said he's comfortable at second and doesn't want to switch. In any case, even if they move him, then they have a hole to fill at second.
That's a decision that the Yankee organization will have to make and if it comes to fruition then they will do so by helping Cano become comfortable with it. However, with that being said, Cano is more valuable to the Yankees as a second baseman so I would think Cashman will exhaust all other possibilities before considering a position change for Cano.





Crawdaddy
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post #76 of 415
11/5/07 at 6:34pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

41-year old Greg Maddux (14-11 with a 4.14 ERA. 31 starts!) re-ups with the Padres for one-year, $10-million. Not a bad deal for him.

347 career victories. 4 Cy Youngs. 16 Gold Gloves (maybe #17 is coming).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlb.com
Maddux would have been guaranteed a $10 million salary next season had he finished with 200 innings pitched. He fell short of that incentive by two innings.
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post #77 of 415
11/5/07 at 7:55pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Schilling signs one year extension with Sox. Looks like he'll finish here. Good move by team and player.

Whoops, local news jumped the gun. I should have said "Reports say Schilling is about to sign one year extension."
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post #78 of 415
11/6/07 at 5:12am

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

The Tribune is reporting that Kerry Wood might be offered the closer's role if he signs, and Mark Prior would have to agree to a club option for 2009 if he still wants to be a Cub.

Watch for Pettitte to sign with the Dodgers, after turning down the Yankees.
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post #79 of 415
11/6/07 at 8:10am

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Perry


Watch for Pettitte to sign with the Dodgers, after turning down the Yankees.
Stop believing everything you hear on ESPN about Torre being the pied pipper. Either Pettitte will play for the Yankees in 2008 or he's retired.
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post #80 of 415
11/6/07 at 9:30am

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

At least until something else happens.

Sure, right now, I think those are the two options he's considering. But if other organizations make him a good offer, he's got the right to change his mind.

I do think that the idea that players will follow Torre west is one without a lot of basis in reality, although to be fair, when players have signed with the Yankees in the past, a lot was made of Torre's active role in recruiting them. While that's probably just nice interview material, it certainly is something the Dodgers hoped they were getting when they signed the man.
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post #81 of 415
11/6/07 at 4:35pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Schilling signs his deal 1 yr 8 million with incentives pushing it to 14 million

Gold Gloves announced:
2007 Gold Glove winners AMERICAN LEAGUE
C Ivan Rodriguez, DET
1B Kevin Youkilis, BOS
2B Placido Polanco, DET
3B Adrian Beltre, SEA
SS Orlando Cabrera, LAA
OF Ichiro Suzuki, SEA
OF Torii Hunter, MIN
OF Grady Sizemore, CLE
P Johan Santana, MIN
NATIONAL LEAGUE
C Russell Martin, LAD
1B Derrek Lee, CHC
2B Orlando Hudson, ARI
3B David Wright, NYM
SS Jimmy Rollins, PHI
OF Carlos Beltran, NYM
OF Andruw Jones, ATL
OF Jeff Francoeur, ATL
OF Aaron Rowand, PHI
P Greg Maddux, SD


Also, the Marlins are listening to offers on Dontrelle Willis and Cabrera. Cabrera is IMHO a cheaper A-Rod with just as much skills
http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/ne...=.jsp&c_id=mlb
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post #82 of 415
11/6/07 at 8:02pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Martin
Cabrera is IMHO a cheaper A-Rod with just as much skills

Just as much? That's really sayin' something!

I'm glad Schilling is back for another year. I think he's turned the corner on his new pitching "persona." It sure looked like it in October.
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post #83 of 415
11/6/07 at 9:42pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

His stats are gaudy
Quote:
He's already the third fastest player in Major League history to reach the 500 RBIs plateau. He mixes exceptional power with the ability to hit for a high average. For three straight seasons he has batted at least .320. And he's driven in more than 112 runs in four straight years.
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post #84 of 415
11/6/07 at 10:01pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

Gaudy, no doubt.

The Red Sox are considering a 6-man rotation, says Theo.
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post #85 of 415
11/7/07 at 9:08pm

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

I've been asking for it for quite some time and the Astros have finally traded Brad Lidge.

They sent him and Eric Bruntlett to the Phils for a trio of minor leaguers.
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post #86 of 415
11/8/07 at 6:37am

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

MLB wants the Red Sox and Athletics to open the '08 season in Tokyo with a three-game series (starting March 22).

Such a trip has to be approved by the players. Thankfully, some of the players are saying that they don't want any part of it.
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post #87 of 415
11/8/07 at 7:34am

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

I assume those games would come out of the Athletics's home schedule, right? Because there's no way Boston gives up three Fenway sellouts.
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post #88 of 415
11/8/07 at 7:57am

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

I would suspect so...if it is even thought through that far. I just hope they go away.

I believe any benefit those games might have for the MLB community are not worth the toll they take on the players at the beginning of the season.

To be truthful, I'm not even exactly sure they are scheduled as regular-season (and not spring training) games. Either way, the miles, time differences and shortened spring training are all enough reasons to say, "forget it."
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post #89 of 415
11/8/07 at 8:37am

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

I hope the Lidge deal doesn't blow up in the Phillies' face, like the Freddy Garcia deal.
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post #90 of 415
11/8/07 at 8:40am

Re: 2007-2008 MLB Hot Stove

These GM meetings have been pretty quiet so far.

I guess teams may be concerned about the pending Mitchell report before dropping a lot of dough on players who are about to gain "instant controversy" status.
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