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Donner Superman 2 SE (merged thread) - Page 9

post #241 of 2287
10/17/04 at 11:55am
I will profess ignorance of the deleted Brando scene -- all that I know is how that moment impacted me as a ten year old. It certainly was a surprise *to me*, and I was filled with wonder and joy. Roger Ebert said he felt Superman II was actually better than the first Superman. I won't go that far as an adult, because I see the scotch tape and the cut corners -- I may be wrong, but it sure sounds like someone was trying to do a voice-over Hackman impersonation in the hot air balloon sequences, i.e. "North, Ms. Techmacher, North!" -- but as a ten year old, Superman II was one of the great movie experiences of my young life.
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post #242 of 2287
10/17/04 at 6:05pm
As long as nobody takes it into their head to destroy Richard Lester's "official" version of the picture, I see no harm, in fact I see a fascinating opportunity to compare two versions of the same movie. I loved the first three Superman pictures and I'm very pleased with the copies I have. I would certainly buy a Special Original Director's Edition of Superman 2. I think it would be common courtesy to ask Dick Lester in to perhaps provide an audio commentary commenting on how his version differs to Dick Donner's, and maybe get an idea of why the Salkinds handed the picture over to him.
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post #243 of 2287
10/17/04 at 8:17pm
larry, i saw most of the movies, i saw, when i was a kid at the budco orleans when it was a twin theater, (only 2 screens, 8 now i think).
and it is a good chance i saw superman 2 there myself.

for me, superman 1 and 2 are one continued movie.
i always watch them together, and they are on my list of favorite all time movies.i developed my opinion on "2" long before i ever new about what happened with richard donner. it still doesnt change my feelings on the film

i would like to see what donner would have done if he had completed the movie.
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post #244 of 2287
10/18/04 at 5:18am
Quote:
I would certainly buy a Special Original Director's Edition of Superman 2. I think it would be common courtesy to ask Dick Lester in to perhaps provide an audio commentary commenting on how his version differs to Dick Donner's, and maybe get an idea of why the Salkinds handed the picture over to him.

I doubt Lester wants to go on the record.
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post #245 of 2287
10/18/04 at 5:52am
Quote:
I doubt Lester wants to go on the record.


Now that Warner called him on his bull, probably not. But then again, Gary Kurtz ate his words and sold out to Lucasfilm for the recent Star Wars Trilogy documentary, so who knows...
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post #246 of 2287
10/18/04 at 5:58am
Quote:
One thing I dislike about Superman II that had nothing to do with Donner or Lester (though Donner's firing is what caused it) is not having John Williams back but instead tracking his music from the first one (ie, one that particularly bugs me is playing the music from Superman's journay to Earth over shots of him picking flowers for Lois Lane. Know this is only something that bugs me due to repeat viewings, but the more I watch it, the more it bothers me.

I agree completely. Ken Thorne has made some effective contributions to other films, but his arrangements of John Williams' music for Superman II just do not sound right. Even when I was younger and liked the second film better, I always thought the music sounded tinny and poorly orchestrated.

I don't know of the logisitcs of this, especially with John Williams' somewhat busy workload (he recently voluntarily pulled out of the 4th Harry Potter film because he was working on too many other projects), but I would love to hear him rescore Superman II. Of course, his style has kind of evolved over the years, but I've noticed his last few scores have started sounding more and more like his work from the '70s and early '80s, so it might just work. Just some thoughts.
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post #247 of 2287
10/18/04 at 9:51am
Showing Clark regaining his powers is a mistake.

Maybe, but I think a bigger mistake would be replacing the "Care to step outside?", a nice follow-up to the diner confrontation, with the more cheesey Donner "Haven't you heard of the freedom of the press?" line (or something like that). It doesn't even make sense unless he's talking just to Luthor there. They just got to Earth. Of course they don't know about the freedom of the press! It's way more of a groaner than the more butch "step outside" line.
I fear if we ever get a Donner re-cut, we'll get some unwanted changes like that for the sake of ego and tipping the percentages in his favor. Maybe not, but ego seems to drive most changes in films these days. I hope they cut out a lot of the cheesey moments in the Metropolis battle and re-score the film. Those two changes would be a HUGE improvement.
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post #248 of 2287
10/18/04 at 1:19pm
As much as I would love it, I think the odds of John Williams writing a full score for a direct-to-video project are...well...

Let's put it this way. How many times has he done it in the past?

I think the very best we could ever get would be Williams writing/arranging some music and letting some other composer do the rest of the work.
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post #249 of 2287
10/18/04 at 1:24pm
Maybe if it got a theatrical release....
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post #250 of 2287
10/18/04 at 1:27pm
Wouldn't that be something!
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post #251 of 2287
10/18/04 at 1:53pm
In the shooting script, is it handled such that Brando and Reeve have their talk and even though we see the demise of Jor-El, it's kept vague as to whether or not he got his powers back? I could see it done in a way where Jor-El could "die" and the scene's end would empahsize the loss -- one more aspect of Superman lost -- and then it only be made clear that he regained his powers when he returns to Metropolis, at which point the audience cheers and figures out that Jor-El's passing was actually a sacrifice.

As far as Donner cut, I'd love it too. I do prefer the linking of the two movies by having the phantom zone villains released at the end of Superman I, but I share in the opinion that if they could work in at least the 'resurrection' scene that would satisfy me.
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post #252 of 2287
10/18/04 at 1:53pm
Wouldn't that be something!

It would be a nice tribute to Christopher Reeve. I've been having my own at home. Watched Somewhere In Time, Street Smart, and Superman II yesterday. Ordered the "Noises Off" DVD. Wonder if "Switching Channels" will be released now.
BTW, it's amazing how bad the cityscape in the background is after the Metropolis battle when Zod and Co. take Lois. S2 is in need of a lot of tweaks and re-composites. How about the "blue force field" around him when he saves Lois at the Eiffel Tower? It's a lot more obvious in S2 where they used rod puppets and animation than in the first movie too.
I'd love to see a full-blows special edition that would make the movie as good as possible.
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post #253 of 2287
10/18/04 at 2:01pm
As far as Donner cut, I'd love it too. I do prefer the linking of the two movies by having the phantom zone villains released at the end of Superman I, but I share in the opinion that if they could work in at least the 'resurrection' scene that would satisfy me.

They could add a shot to Superman I where the Phantom Zone (much farther away from Earth than in S2), gets a hairline fracture from the missile's shockwave.
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post #254 of 2287
10/19/04 at 7:36am
Quote:
As much as I would love it, I think the odds of John Williams writing a full score for a direct-to-video project are...well...

Let's put it this way. How many times has he done it in the past?

I think the very best we could ever get would be Williams writing/arranging some music and letting some other composer do the rest of the work.

All true. Of course, it would need to be someone whose style is similar, or who at least understands how to make Williams' music work. William Ross might be a possibility; he did a pretty impressive job with Chamber of Secrets.
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post #255 of 2287
10/19/04 at 11:47am
Nothing against Ross; his work in COS was fairly semaless, which is really a credit to him. But he didn't really write any new material for the film. He just adapted Williams' music from the first movie. Really, he's more of a Ken Thorne in that respect, which is what we're trying to get away from in this case.

The only composers that come to mind for me are Bruce Broughton and Michael Giacchino. They both have a lot of stylistic similarities.
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post #256 of 2287
10/20/04 at 2:07am
Bryan Singer's new Superman film seems to be a sequel to Superman II, so surely it would make sense to a) Re-release the Superman II DVD prior to the new film opening, and b) Remaster it with 5.1 surround and better transfer.
If this is the case, surely the chances of added extras being put on a new DVD of II would be pretty good?
It may not end up being a full-on re-edit of the film, but just to see some of these missing scenes as a supplement would be something of a miracle!

I've got my fingers crossed...I really think this could happen!
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post #257 of 2287
10/20/04 at 3:18am
Quote:
Nothing against Ross; his work in COS was fairly semaless, which is really a credit to him. But he didn't really write any new material for the film. He just adapted Williams' music from the first movie. Really, he's more of a Ken Thorne in that respect, which is what we're trying to get away from in this case.

I know, but I guess my point was that Ken Thorne's arrangements didn't do Williams's music justice, but Ross's did. COS sounded like a John Williams score, whereas Superman II sounded like an imitation of a Williams score. Of course, it helped that Williams himself wrote some new themes for COS, which maybe he could do for the new version of Superman II.
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post #258 of 2287
10/20/04 at 5:12am
According to this source, Ross did not write a single note on HP and COS:


http://www.comcen.com.au/~agfam/rund...arrypotter.pdf

The relevant text can be found on page 3-4. All music is written by Williams hand. Ross probably just conducted and did some on the spot changes required during the recording sessions.
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post #259 of 2287
10/20/04 at 11:11pm
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post #260 of 2287
10/21/04 at 6:52pm
Quote:
The relevant text can be found on page 3-4. All music is written by Williams hand. Ross probably just conducted and did some on the spot changes required during the recording sessions.


That article is quite accurate as far as I know as well. Ross, in the end, had very little (or nothing) to do with the actual composing of the score -- as a telling sign, nobody would really talk about what happened on that score after the fact. I believe the producers didn't like what Ross was doing, and Williams ultimately had the time to do the score -- so while Ross retained a credit, Williams in fact scored the movie himself, re-scoring what little Ross had composed.

As far as him re-scoring SUPERMAN II -- there's not a chance in hell of that ever happening. I actually don't think Ken Thorne did a bad job on "Superman III" (where he wrote his own material in many scenes), but his "II" score does come across as a pallid imitation, almost entirely because of the orchestra.
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post #261 of 2287
10/21/04 at 9:46pm
Joel McNeely has often been touted as Williams' protoge, and the score for "Shadows of the Empire" that he did sounds VERY similar to Williams' work.
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post #262 of 2287
10/25/04 at 12:05am
Quote:
As far as him re-scoring SUPERMAN II -- there's not a chance in hell of that ever happening. I actually don't think Ken Thorne did a bad job on "Superman III" (where he wrote his own material in many scenes), but his "II" score does come across as a pallid imitation, almost entirely because of the orchestra.


Well, someone will have to... John Williams or otherwise. If the restoration is done, a signifigant chunk of the film will be replaced with different scenes entirely. These scenes will have to be scored and the remaining footage in the film (which may also be expanded upon) may need rescoring to match the new footage.

This kind of job is going to take a lot more attention than just adding footage. We're talking about a complete redo of post-production and a revising of around 40-50% of the footage. Man, I hope Warner is able to do it... would be a helluva present for fans along with Superman Returns.
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post #263 of 2287
10/25/04 at 2:43pm
Quote:
As much as I would love it, I think the odds of John Williams writing a full score for a direct-to-video project are...well...

Let's put it this way. How many times has he done it in the past?


Well, if my memory serves me correctly, Spacecamp was essentially a direct-to-video release. Perhaps it wasn't planned that way, but I really don't remember any theatrical run for it.

-Lyle J.P.
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post #264 of 2287
10/25/04 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Well, if my memory serves me correctly, Spacecamp was essentially a direct-to-video release. Perhaps it wasn't planned that way, but I really don't remember any theatrical run for it.

Well, perhaps Williams wants to finish Superman II just as much as Donner, Mankiewicz and the editor always did. I mean, he's already going to be doing Superman Returns from the reports coming from Bryan Singer... so maybe it's a personal thing. Again, they probably haven't even told Williams yet as they want to make sure it's even possible before they ask him to look at his schedule.

Still, this is an unprecedented event all around, so I don't think we'll be able to figure out what Williams will do until (or if) he's asked. I just wish there was a way to get updates on the progress on Warner Bros.' part, even if it never happens. Maybe at the next Warner Home Video chat, someone can ask for the latest on that.
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post #265 of 2287
10/25/04 at 6:54pm
Quote:
I mean, he's already going to be doing Superman Returns from the reports coming from Bryan Singer...

No, that's a misunderstanding. Singer simply said they're going to be using Williams' music. John Ottman was announced as the guy doing the score AND the editing of the movie a couple weeks after Singer was announced as being the director.

So you can probably bank on the Superman Main Title and the Krypton theme being recycled and re-orchestrated, much like what happened on Smallville in the "Dr. Swann" episode in Season 2.
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post #266 of 2287
10/25/04 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Well, if my memory serves me correctly, Spacecamp was essentially a direct-to-video release. Perhaps it wasn't planned that way, but I really don't remember any theatrical run for it.


Entirely untrue. I know because I saw Spacecamp during its theatrical run (in Larry Sutliff's neighborhood - the GCC Northeast 4!).

But Spacecamp was, I believe, the victim of awful timing, being released in the shadow of the Challenger tragedy.

Back on topic: this is one of the best threads I've ever read here at HTF. Fun, fascinating and full of facts. Great job, fellas!
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post #267 of 2287
10/25/04 at 8:33pm
Quote:
No, that's a misunderstanding. Singer simply said they're going to be using Williams' music. John Ottman was announced as the guy doing the score AND the editing of the movie a couple weeks after Singer was announced as being the director.


Hmm, I remember the Ottman talk now, but is it also possible that things have changed? Williams has been doing a lot of re-arranging with his schedule lately. And I thought Singer only confirmed we would hear Williams "music"?
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post #268 of 2287
10/28/04 at 5:21am
This thing will cost millions of dollars if recut; the climate is just about right for work to begin, but I think deleted scenes in a supplementary section is probably the sensible route, which WB will take.
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post #269 of 2287
10/28/04 at 5:21am
double-post
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post #270 of 2287
10/28/04 at 9:31am
Hey, I saw Spacecamp in the theater too!

Can Superman II get a special edition to tie-in with the new film?

Is it only #III that Warners got sued over?

I thought II was in there too.
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