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Donner Superman 2 SE (merged thread) - Page 7

post #181 of 2287
8/5/04 at 11:32am
And for those unfamiliar with Lester aside from this rather ugly Superman affair, he has amassed quite an impressive collection of credits over the years, and is really quite a different director than Donner. While a film like Superman obviously plays more to Donner's strengths as a director, I would argue that Lester's best films are more significant than anything in Donner's oeuvre. However, I do think Donner was the better man for this job, will always remain a devotee of the film, and also long for Donner's vision of Superman II to see the light of day.

Lester is certainly no hack, as he is often portrayed when the discussion turns to Superman, and he's definitely not "no-frills." He directed his share of duds, but he also gave us the masterful Petulia, the deservedly beloved Hard Day's Night and Help!, the underrated Robin and Marian, and the delightful first two Musketeers films.

And, believe it or not, he is an American expat who has spent most of his adult life in Britain.

-Jon
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post #182 of 2287
8/5/04 at 11:52am
It's all rather convoluted.


That's putting it mildly, OO7!
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post #183 of 2287
8/5/04 at 12:03pm
I know I'm tired of watching Superman reveal his identity by TRIPPING ON A BEAR RUG!!! Ugh.


In all fairness, is Superman not realizing that no bullet came out of a gun any better? This is a guy who can catch them afterall. Realistically, he'd have just repeated the Clark Kent faint thing from S1 if he wanted to protect his identity. So, part of him had to have wanted to reveal his identity to Lois either way--whether it was doing his Superman invulnerablility pose over a blank or tripping over a rug in Clark Kent mode and grabbing his glasses out of the fire to conceal his features.

I honestly can't tell you whether or not I would prefer the Donner scene. I think the theatrical version is pretty heartwarming and possibly one of my favorite scenes in the film along with the "Would you care to step outside" line.

Pretty sure Donner would scrap some stuff that may be genuinely better than his footage just to up his percentage of footage.

So, chances are I'd never get a film that I was 100% satisfied with.
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post #184 of 2287
8/5/04 at 1:44pm
I'm a big fan of Lester's. "No-frills" only referred to his economical, fast methods. It bugs me seeing the Musketeer movies as they are though. They never should have been split in two, there's too much padding. For such a pioneer of snappy editing, he can't be too crazy about that. As for a Superman 2 DVD, would it cost any more than the Superman 1 restoration? Wouldn't they just use the effects shots from Lester's version? Or is that 2-3 million figure for legal hassles?
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post #185 of 2287
8/5/04 at 1:52pm
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As for a Superman 2 DVD, would it cost any more than the Superman 1 restoration? Wouldn't they just use the effects shots from Lester's version?

I doubt it. Some of the sfx in the Lester version isn't even finished, look at the frozen Washington, DC footage at the end. Brrrrr. Anyway, one of my biggest beefs is the Fortress of Solitude transformation sequence that reuses outtakes from Superman I that have since been restored to that film anyway. Also, I don't believe the post-production on Donner's footage is anywhere near complete.

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Or is that 2-3 million figure for legal hassles?


Well, even if they can find a way to get the rights to Brando's footage, they're going to have to pay his estate.
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post #186 of 2287
8/5/04 at 2:00pm
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I haven't read one article that suggests that Lester went on record to say that he took credit for the Donner footage, although he has undermined his work a little by saying a lot of that footage was shot by the 2nd unit.


Read the one that I linked and called "BULL$#^@!" or some such nonsense. He states that even the shot lists he checked only gave Donner credit for 12% of the footage when he came on to 2. That's an outright lie. If 2nd Unit shot anything, it might have been the stunt work with Lois falling out the building or some of the exterior work near the Fortress. However, we know Donner shot the original Daily Planet opening, the original identity revelation sequence at the hotel, the Brando sequence(s), the prison sequences, the Luthor/Fortress footage, the White House sequence, the Daily Planet/Luthor/Zod footage, the Zod/Superman/Lois/Luthor footage and who knows what else (the Moon sequence?). That's the majority of the frickin' movie!!!!!

Either he's claiming that most of *his* own cut is second unit, or he's taking credit for Donner's footage. Either way, he's got no credibility as far as I'm concerned.
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post #187 of 2287
8/5/04 at 11:03pm
If they restore the Donner version, how come I have a feeling this will take up to $5 million to restore (and to cover clearnces and pay off Brando's estate too) due to some of the unfinished effects (which would be handled by CGI effects like the same approach of using CGI to improve effects shots and finish shots like with the Star Trek: The Motion Picture Special Edition).
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post #188 of 2287
8/5/04 at 11:15pm
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(which would be handled by CGI effects like the same approach of using CGI to improve effects shots and finish shots like with the Star Trek: The Motion Picture Special Edition).


What really blew me away about the Star Trek restoration was how they retro-designed the new special effects. The style really fit the movie well and didn't seem out-of-place or contemporary (beyond the late 70's). Very impressive.
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post #189 of 2287
8/6/04 at 12:52am
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Read the one that I linked and called "BULL$#^@!" or some such nonsense. He states that even the shot lists he checked only gave Donner credit for 12% of the footage when he came on to 2. That's an outright lie. If 2nd Unit shot anything, it might have been the stunt work with Lois falling out the building or some of the exterior work near the Fortress. However, we know Donner shot the original Daily Planet opening, the original identity revelation sequence at the hotel, the Brando sequence(s), the prison sequences, the Luthor/Fortress footage, the White House sequence, the Daily Planet/Luthor/Zod footage, the Zod/Superman/Lois/Luthor footage and who knows what else (the Moon sequence?).

Yep, he shot the moon sequence, too.

It comes to about 65-70% of the picture.
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post #190 of 2287
8/6/04 at 2:52am
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I haven't read one article that suggests that Lester went on record to say that he took credit for the Donner footage, although he has undermined his work a little by saying a lot of that footage was shot by the 2nd unit.

If I remember right - In the making of Superman II he personally takes credit for the Diner sequences, which we all knew was filmed by Donner.
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post #191 of 2287
8/6/04 at 6:41am
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Either he's claiming that most of *his* own cut is second unit, or he's taking credit for Donner's footage. Either way, he's got no credibility as far as I'm concerned.

What's just as bad is that in a 1998 interview, when "Superman II" premiered on American Movie Classics (Remember when they used to show films uncut and commercial-free? That's a bygone era nowadays - thank goodness for Turner Classic Movies!), Richard Lester claimed that "Superman II" was HIS film and not Donner's. Talk about a slap in the face to someone whom Lester called "a friend".
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post #192 of 2287
8/6/04 at 8:48am
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If I remember right - In the making of Superman II he personally takes credit for the Diner sequences, which we all knew was filmed by Donner.

He doesn't in the making of...
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post #193 of 2287
8/6/04 at 5:51pm
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That's a bygone era nowadays - thank goodness for Turner Classic Movies!), Richard Lester claimed that "Superman II" was HIS film and not Donner's. Talk about a slap in the face to someone whom Lester called "a friend".


I don't know. As a filmmaker, I really can't think of anything more offensive than my replacement indentifying the majority of the 3/4 of my contributions to a film as "second unit".
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post #194 of 2287
8/12/04 at 9:36am
In the unofficial Lester bio; he's quoted that there wasn't much Donner material in the theatrical cut, around 12-15% But it's more like 30%!.

The biographer ends the Superman section with quotes from leading film reviewers; all slamming Superman The Movie and praising Superman 2 and 3.
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post #195 of 2287
8/12/04 at 10:01am
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In the unofficial Lester bio; he's quoted that there wasn't much Donner material in the theatrical cut, around 12-15% But it's more like 30%!.


I already posted the link earlier. Here it is again:

http://www.cinescape.com/0/Editorial...20370&aff_id=0

Quote:
Richard Lester recalls the amount of previously shot footage differently, pointing out, `Dick shot a small portion of Superman II. We did a count, finally, of how much Dick had done of the second film, and I think it was something like 12%, and there were a few other second unit directors who had done some other material, but his work was that much. There is a sheet somewhere the producers have which lists every single shot, how long it lasts and how much it is. That doesn`t tell you anything emotionally, but technically that tells you how much was pre-shot by Donner himself.`


He's lying, and here he's actually claiming about the overall amount of footage shot period. At least 30% of the theatrical cut is Donner's, and 50% of the extended television version. And there are multiple claims that Lester took credit for the Diner sequence during an interview, which even Donner claims to have seen. Donner is IN THE SHOT. Lester's word is as useless...
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post #196 of 2287
8/12/04 at 11:36am
They should re-title the theatrical S2:

Superman II: Dick'ed Over!!
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post #197 of 2287
8/12/04 at 3:16pm
I sat through Superman III this week at the behest of a friend who'd been trying to get me to watch it for years. I did like the Smallville parts, but the comedy parts felt like they came from another movie. It only made me long for a recut of SII even more. I think Jon sums up Lester pretty well - good comedy director, all wrong for Superman.
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post #198 of 2287
8/13/04 at 4:54am
I was watching the making of...Superman 2; Lester was saying that the Metropolis battle gave him an opportunity to improvise some gags If he directed the entire film, it would be very Superman 3.

Lester couldn't really give Donner too much credit in the media, but it's also bordering libel when he's discounting Donner's contribution. He should've kept his mouth shut.
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post #199 of 2287
8/13/04 at 7:02am
The Metropolis battle should have been spectacular, but as it exists, it mostly looks cheap.
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post #200 of 2287
8/13/04 at 12:20pm
The Metropolis battle should have been spectacular, but as it exists, it mostly looks cheap.


What's sad is that whole sequence could easily be re-worked today if somebody was willing to ante up the money to do some new shots. The way it is filmed much of it is: "show the principals, cut to the resulting chaos" anyway. Would be so easy to add some new stuff (a lot of the destruction could be done CG today) and cut out all the shitty Lester comedy bits that totally ruined what should have been a serious situation. The same could be done with the Hicktown bits. But, who's going to pay to re-make a 25-year-old picture?

If only S2 was a Lucasfilm.

I just watched S3 again too, but skipped ahead on a lot of the movie just as I'd planned. It's almost sad that there are some good bits of a movie hidden in that mess. It makes S4 look good though if you watch it soon afterwards. That film could almost be saved, just by re-editing it (or substituting a sky for a starfield) so that Mariel Hemmingway isn't flown into outer space, somehow surviving unharmed. What the hell was up with that?

Another problem with S2 and S 4 (not thinking of any instances in 3 right now) is the newly-invented powers. Superman probably has more powers than any other superhero anyway, but the films decided that they needed to make a few up when convenient. Watching them today I can't help but wonder if it was because the FX just weren't there to have Superman do what he'd do in the comics. So, they just drew a little line or had him look at something, and BOOM! He makes it okay.
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post #201 of 2287
8/13/04 at 1:02pm
The first Superman had a good number of gags, too, and the ability to make time move backwards was certainly a newly invented (or, at best, wildly extrapolated) power.

While I consider Superman 3 a colossal misfire in a lot of ways, including the wildly uneven tone throughout, I don't think the gags inserted by Lester in the second film were that huge of a departure in tone from its predecessor. Lester had previously worked comedic elements into films as diverse as the "Musketeers" films, "Juggernaut", and "Robin & Marian" with success.

Regards,
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post #202 of 2287
8/13/04 at 2:18pm
I all know is that the Metropolis pedestrian gags are wholly unfunny.
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post #203 of 2287
8/13/04 at 5:00pm
Yeah, that whole sequence made me cringe. It's odd that the comedy overall (to me) doesn't work, because Lester's body of work shows the man can do comedy. For some reason, it feels campy and forced in his Superman work, while in the Beatles' films, it's pretty funny.
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post #204 of 2287
8/13/04 at 6:14pm
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The biographer ends the Superman section with quotes from leading film reviewers; all slamming Superman The Movie and praising Superman 2 and 3.
Must havce taken a hell of a lot of research to find reviewers that would criticise S1, but praise S3.
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post #205 of 2287
8/13/04 at 6:53pm
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Must havce taken a hell of a lot of research to find reviewers that would criticise S1, but praise S3.


Was Jeff Craig one of them?
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post #206 of 2287
8/13/04 at 7:56pm
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Must havce taken a hell of a lot of research to find reviewers that would criticise S1, but praise S3.

Believe it or not, III received its share of good reviews. In fact, Richard Corliss of Time raved about it, and said it was the best of the three movies. Ansen of Newsweek gave it a good review, as did People Magazine. And my local paper, the Inquirer, gave it three out of four stars. I remember all of these reviews very well because I was really stoked for SUPERMAN III, and still remember my disappointment when seeing it on opening night.
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post #207 of 2287
8/13/04 at 10:03pm
Larry - Thanks. That's interesting. And surprising.
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post #208 of 2287
8/14/04 at 2:43am
I thought that Richard Pryor was the best thing about III
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post #209 of 2287
8/14/04 at 8:01am
I thought the Metropolis battle was technically superb, craftsmenship in Britain was second to none in those days. But the film-makers never really exploited it all, could've gone further in my opinion. I believe Donner was intending to make changes, make it bigger.
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post #210 of 2287
8/14/04 at 10:29am
Derek Meddings was so good, the craftsmanship was great,that's why it's such a shame it was canceled out by the lame gags and ugly lighting and flying dolls and lack of real-city shots. That street doesn't look or feel like any real street anywhere. And yet I'm sure Meddings could have done a beautiful job integrating miniatures with real New York footage. Whose decision was it to cost-cut the most important action scene in the movie? (And yet spend $ to rebuild fortress, shoot at Niagra Falls, do the whole water stunt with Lois, and the "exciting" Paris adventure? Eh.)
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