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Donner Superman 2 SE (merged thread) - Page 6

post #151 of 2287
8/3/04 at 2:11pm
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With the campy lameness taken out that can't add up to more than the amount of donner stuff in the existing version? A "Donner-ish" cut would simply be balancing out the universe.


Exactly! More of the original tone of the series would be restored, not to mention much of the oscar-caliber photography. I know I'm tired of watching Superman reveal his identity by TRIPPING ON A BEAR RUG!!! Ugh.
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post #152 of 2287
8/3/04 at 2:44pm
I've been fascinated by the missing Donner footage for a few years now, ever since stumbling upon supermancinema.net in 2000. I managed to get a video of the 154 minute edit featuring the various television additions and am more likely to watch that, with all its visual imperfections, than the dvd.

I tend to think that we, if anything, would get a double disc set of a "suped up" (pardon the pun) theatrical cut on one disc and a second disc featuring something along the lines of a Donner "reconstruction". I'm thinking the existing Donner footage with text screens to fill in the missing gaps? Could happen.

Warner could make the set a "limited edition" and then jettison the second disc if they wanted for future sales.

And as for getting people to buy it....I was so blinded by hype that I plunked down good money on the double disc of "Legend" and I DIDN'T EVEN LIKE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. I'm SURE there are others out there like me. :b

I, for one, am just DYING to see the Donner directed Daily Planet sequence when Lois discovers Superman's identity and jumps out the window!
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post #153 of 2287
8/4/04 at 3:01am
For sure, some on-set special effects were used for the Fortress sequences, but hard to say how much extra work will be required for WB to enhance those scenes; are they prepared to invest a few million? You are talking 2-3million minimum to enhance the entire picture.

Stuart Baird reckons that he only cut an estimated 60% of Superman 2. Is there footage that was never cut?
When Lester's editor cut the Donner footage, did he throw away the original negatives?

Someone needs to do an inventory immediately.

If all the footage is available, then the followiing Lester sequences will be required to complete the picture, which will be in favour of Donner:

Niagara Exteriors
Flight to Fortress (unsure if Donner shot this)
Villains take over little America
Majority of the battle (Donner shot very little; Superman's return to Metropolis was filmed)
Memory loss kiss
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post #154 of 2287
8/4/04 at 5:51am
Watched S2 last night, hadn't seen it in ages.

Theatrical version holds up fairly well, but some effects could really use updating.

As reported, the S2 DVD is weak indeed (damn soft and thin audio).

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talking 2-3million minimum to enhance the entire picture.


Is this the kind of money they spent updating S1 on DVD?

At the very least, WB could fix some effects, create a topnotch A/V transfer for DVD, and include all the unused footage as supplemental material.
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post #155 of 2287
8/4/04 at 7:00am
I like Will's suggestion of a reconstruction of the film using newly-inserted title cards in place of the missing footage. When I picked up Kino Video's excellent reconstructed restoration of "Metropolis" last year, some of the lost scenes were filled in with new title cards, so it could be possible.

Then again, DC's suggestion of utilizing those necessary Lester sequences to fill out a complete edition is also a good one as well. As long as some of those raunchy Lester shots that were in the international extended cut never see the light of day (specifically, the trashy woman fussing over losing her football game, the Japanese girl telling her father to shut up, and the doofy guy having camera trouble at Niagara Falls), I'll be very happy.
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post #156 of 2287
8/4/04 at 7:45am
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Theatrical version holds up fairly well, but some effects could really use updating.


They were bad even in 1980/1981; the f/x was rushed 'cos they had to meet the October/November 80 deadline; the film opened in Austraila - November 1980, their summer.

Bill, those scenes are awful.

The turning back the world was taken from the ending of Superman 2; according to Lester, the 1st film lacked an emotional impact, so Donner took the ending of 2 and put it on 1.
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post #157 of 2287
8/4/04 at 10:02am
So what was the ending supposed to be for 2 according to Donner? Did he ever shoot an ending for 2 before he was fired?


Btw...does anyone else have the 2 DVD set that has the TV footage mixed in with the theatrical version?
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post #158 of 2287
8/4/04 at 10:56am
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Btw...does anyone else have the 2 DVD set that has the TV footage mixed in with the theatrical version?

Huh is this available on DVD?
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post #159 of 2287
8/4/04 at 11:17am
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So what was the ending supposed to be for 2 according to Donner?

I believe the original ending for II was that Lois Lane is killed during the showdown with the villians. It is then that he reverses the rotation of the Earth the bring Lois back
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post #160 of 2287
8/4/04 at 12:41pm
Yup. The ending of the first movie (turning back time) was supposed to be the ending of the second. Originally, the first movie ended with Supes throwing the rocket into space and we would see the Phantom Zone villains being freed by the explosion. Basically, the two movies were meant to be tied much closer together...with 2 being a direct continuation of the first.
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post #161 of 2287
8/4/04 at 12:58pm
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I believe the original ending for II was that Lois Lane is killed during the showdown with the villians. It is then that he reverses the rotation of the Earth the bring Lois back



Understood. But my question is...once they decided "this will be the ending for 1 instead" does that mean that Donner never shot an ending for 2? Was there a "Donner ending?"

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Huh is this available on DVD?


It is available as a very well made fan-produced DVD.
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post #162 of 2287
8/4/04 at 1:08pm
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I believe the original ending for II was that Lois Lane is killed during the showdown with the villians. It is then that he reverses the rotation of the Earth the bring Lois back


Accordindg to the script, dated April 77; Superman turns back time far enough to protect his identity from Lois.

As he's turning back time, you get to see the landmarks return to their original state, see Perry White in the bathrooom about to put toothpaste on his brush then suddenly time stops and paste returns to the tube.

Perry in the bathroom was shot, but would've been scrapped most likely.

Dissolve to the Daily Planet, Clark and Lois dialogue; Clark bumps into a bully; Clark realises that he must take revenge on the DINER bully, walks into a storeroom;
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post #163 of 2287
8/4/04 at 1:56pm
Interesting. If that script is dated april 77, would that be before or after the decision was made to turn back the earth in part 1? Would they really have turned back the earth twice? I would hope that Donner and Mankiewicz intended to come up with something better before they got axed. I kind of like the idea of leaving it up in the air with that deleted scene from the TV version on the balcony where they break up, but Lois still knows the secret. As a kid, that was the version I always saw. I still expect to see that scene when the movie's on now!
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post #164 of 2287
8/5/04 at 12:53am
The decision was made in 1978, probably around May, so yes, way after. Lester actually commented to Donner that the end of the first film was too f/x laden lacking any emotional power.

Lester also advised that Donner to halt any Superman 2 shooting so the first film could be delivered on time. Shooting on the sequel finished by the end of Oct 77, Donner was able to shoot all the Hackman and Fortress scenes for the sequel.

Who knows, maybe Hackman would've returned for additional shoots in Feb 79 I think there would've been some changes, the film would've been bigger than initally perceived in the script.

Did Lester stab Donner in the back? No, I don't think so, Hamilton did take over the sequel for a short while in 79 before Lester was asked. Should Lester have called Donner? Yes, after all, they became friends, it would've been a good gesture to call to make sure that your friend understood the situation.
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post #165 of 2287
8/5/04 at 1:25am
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Lester also advised that Donner to halt any Superman 2 shooting so the first film could be delivered on time.


Donner was instructed by the Salkinds to deliver the film so that they could begin to flex some of their ownership of the property before his going over the budget and schedule caused anymore deferment of their investment. I seriously don't understand how Lester was given credit for an ultimatum that Warner Bros has since verified.

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Did Lester stab Donner in the back? No, I don't think so, Hamilton did take over the sequel for a short while in 79 before Lester was asked.


Well, considering that the Salkinds tossed Lester in Donner's face as his possible successor, and because most of the cast and crew seemed to see it the same way... I would argue that the final perspective is against Lester. Especially considering that he took the job when he was practically fed the opportunity before Hamilton was approached again.

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Yes, after all, they became friends, it would've been a good gesture to call to make sure that your friend understood the situation.


I read a recent interview with Donner where he still seemed to take some issue with Lester's decision at the time, though he also seemed more understanding than I would be.
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post #166 of 2287
8/5/04 at 2:50am
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I read a recent interview with Donner where he still seemed to take some issue with Lester's decision at the time, though he also seemed more understanding than I would be.


What interview would that be? I'm curious..
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post #167 of 2287
8/5/04 at 3:58am
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What interview would that be? I'm curious..

Whallah!

Not really, recent, but hey! I could have sworn I originally read these statements (or ones like them) in a more recent interview, done to coincide with the DVD release, but for all I know this is what I saw.

Also, I want to add that I had also heard about the Salkind's having to reshoot much of Donner's footage to get the right to remove his name. I believe that stipulation was required by the DGA once they attempted to do so.

Again, these guys spent even MORE TIME AND MONEY just to get rid of Donner's hand on the film. We know many of the scenes discussed on this board exist, and without Brando, there was no other reason to reshoot them other to marginalize the amount of footage by the original director.
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post #168 of 2287
8/5/04 at 4:19am
I'm loving all this talk on a possible SII DVD re-release.

As long as this thread stays active and WB stumble across it and start their creative minds thinking...
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post #169 of 2287
8/5/04 at 4:26am
Jack O'Halloran: Richard Lester was as big an @$$hole as the Salkinds.

And O'Halloran claims as much as 80% (!!!!) might have been shot for Superman II. More and more it sounds like Donner wasn't kidding about how much he did for the film...

And what I just found... *sigh*.... this should be the final say on Richard Lester's "creativity":

BULL#$^@!!!!!!

Ok, 12% of Superman II was shot by Donner!?!? Lester is a liar. FLAT. OUT. LIAR. Man, I was content with believing he was just taking a job until I read his comments here. WE KNOW FOR A FACT THAT IT WAS MORE THAN HALF. You see? I KNEW IT. He and the Salkinds were shoveling whatever they could to get us to buy their new "vision". Ugh, god, now I won't be content until I know exactly what's sitting in the vaults at Warner. Obviously, only the people on Donner's side are dealing with any truth...
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post #170 of 2287
8/5/04 at 4:48am
More from Mark McClure

"MCCLURE: Donner shot both movies...Lester came in and reshot about, maybe, 5 scenes, maybe more. Donner is, was and always will be the BEST ... Lester had 3 cameras set up, we came to the set, he told us where to stand, rolled camera, got what he wanted, which was pretty much focused celluloid and that was it. I barely remember the guy even though he directed SUPERMAN III. My impression is Lester didn't want to be there. He was there to collect monies from the Salkinds for his work on THE 3 MUSKETEERS. I'm not sure about his homework on SUPERMAN. I enjoyed HELP and HARD DAYS NIGHT but I only refer to Lester about what I know and what I felt."

Alright, so now IN ADDITION to the comments made by Margot Kidder about the Donner footage (which includes claims that the original "gun fakeout" scene) that exists, we have several other cast members AND Donner stating that somewhere between 70%-80% of this movie was complete.

Considering the outrageous lies I posted from Lester, can we start to at least consider that is still a good amount of footage that we haven't seen? I mean, c'mon, everything we've *confirmed* comes from trading cards, scene extensions from TV and various other odds and ends, it's highly likely even more is just waiting to be found.

And in my not-so-humble opinion, I really don't care about Lester's "vision" (ESPECIALLY now). If I had a choice, I would hand his footage to Donner and say "An Eye for an Eye" and allow him to put that, yes, PRETTIER version of Superman II together. Then I would put the theatrical cut through a blender, and say "To Hell with nostalgic value."

Oh, and lastly, BOOYAH:

http://www.cinescape.com/0/Editorial...20539&aff_id=0

The "fakeout scene" is confirmed as shot by Donner as well as others (the Brando stuff sounds GREAT), and once again we're left with just a few scenes that weren't shot (including the army sequence). 12% indeed. Sounds to me like this movie is just waiting to be restored, folks..
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post #171 of 2287
8/5/04 at 6:02am
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Donner was instructed by the Salkinds to deliver the film so that they could begin to flex some of their ownership of the property before his going over the budget and schedule caused anymore deferment of their investment. I seriously don't understand how Lester was given credit for an ultimatum that Warner Bros has since verified.

Donner himself said that Lester came up with this decision 'cos so much money was being lost. It's there in fine print, it's mentioned in the making of book and a few magazines where Donner is clearly quoted. The quotes were generally along these lines "Lester was a great help, at first I thought he was being used to push me out, but he told me that he was only there to get his money, he wasn't interested in taking over the film. We became good friends".
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Well, considering that the Salkinds tossed Lester in Donner's face as his possible successor, and because most of the cast and crew seemed to see it the same way... I would argue that the final perspective is against Lester. Especially considering that he took the job when he was practically fed the opportunity before Hamilton was approached again.

The only problem I have is that Lester didn't bother calling Donner to calm the situation and explain that he was asked by the Salkinds to complete and get his remaining earnings he was entitled to. Margot Kidder and Chris Reeve were quite supportive of Lester.

There are few spins on these stories, but after exhausting myself on the history, I think there's a common line I've found in all these stories, the common link is that Pierre Spengler shouldn't have produced the picture.
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post #172 of 2287
8/5/04 at 6:13am
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Donner himself said that Lester came up with this decision 'cos so much money was being lost. It's there in fine print, it's mentioned in the making of book and a few magazines where Donner is clearly quoted. The quotes were generally along these lines


My point is that he didn't have a choice. It wouldn't have made much of a difference as he still had to have the film out by their next projected release date. So Lester was the first to recommend finishing I first, big deal.

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"Lester was a great help, at first I thought he was being used to push me out, but he told me that he was only there to get his money, he wasn't interested in taking over the film. We became good friends".


He ends this statement (following the "friends" comment) with the disappointment over Lester's lack of communcation when he took the job. The comments made by Lester since have been in direct conflict with what Donner has said about the production. Read the quotes in the other articles. Are Donner and Lester still "good friends" when Lester takes credit for what Donner clearly shot?

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Margot Kidder and Chris Reeve were quite supportive of Lester.


Actually, Kidder has been proclaiming her disappointment quite publicly over the entire situation since Donner left. All her quotes regarding how crappy the Lester version is compared to the Donner footage dates back as far as 1982 (if I remember right). You'll notice that with each subsequent sequel, Kidder's involvement was minimalized more and more. Coincidence? Unlikely. As far as Reeve, I would love to read some quotes of his about being supportive of Lester that are not tied to his PR interviews during production under the Salkinds.

Oh, and here's a Kidder quote for you: ""There's a whole other Superman II in a vault somewhere, with scenes of Chris and me that have never seen the light of day. It's far better than the one that was released." [cited STARLOG #323]
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post #173 of 2287
8/5/04 at 7:38am
Drew, I'm enjoying this discussion

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My point is that he didn't have a choice. It wouldn't have made much of a difference as he still had to have the film out by their next projected release date. So Lester was the first to recommend finishing I first, big deal.

And the next projected date was July 78. Pierre made one big mistake, he didn't tie down the ideal effects crew for the additional months, Broccoli got them signed for Moonraker! And that lego town sequence at the end suffered...badly

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He ends this statement (following the "friends" comment) with the disappointment over Lester's lack of communication when he took the job. The comments made by Lester since have been in direct conflict with what Donner has said about the production. Read the quotes in the other articles. Are Donner and Lester still "good friends" when Lester takes credit for what Donner clearly shot?

People have told me that he took credit for the diner sequence (Don is seen walking past in the exterior shot smoking a cigar), which article is he quoted in? I haven't read one article that suggests that Lester went on record to say that he took credit for the Donner footage, although he has undermined his work a little by saying a lot of that footage was shot by the 2nd unit. Donner was actually involved in many of the set-ups in England, even on the 2nd unit! They didn't erase Donner out of the making of Superman 2, he's seen walking past a stuntman in the White House.
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Actually, Kidder has been proclaiming her disappointment quite publicly over the entire situation since Donner left. All her quotes regarding how crappy the Lester version is compared to the Donner footage dates back as far as 1982 (if I remember right). You'll notice that with each subsequent sequel, Kidder's involvement was minimalized more and more. Coincidence? Unlikely. As far as Reeve, I would love to read some quotes of his about being supportive of Lester that are not tied to his PR interviews during production under the Salkinds.

Oh, and here's a Kidder quote for you: ""There's a whole other Superman II in a vault somewhere, with scenes of Chris and me that have never seen the light of day. It's far better than the one that was released." [cited STARLOG #323]

Lester had to beg Margot to do Superman 3, but it's pretty obvious that the producers didn't want her in the movie after her outbursts in public hence her short scenes.

Margot was very vocal about the Salkinds, but she never blamed Lester, she thought he was good and did his best to finish the film under pressure but as you cited, she preferred the stuff she did in 1977.

Some quoted from the Timeout magazine U.K. 1981 (film was already out Austraila by the time this was all written):


Donner recalls the aftermath of making ‘Superman’ as something of a personal crisis: ‘I was fouled up by the whole experience,’ he says. ‘I had to go to my house in California and stay there for a year to try and forget these people. I was offered practically every picture that was being made but I just couldn’t bring myself, to go to work. "Superman" had been supposed to last nine months and it went on for two years and four months. I got no additional salary and I haven’t seen any of my contracted percentage of the profits.

‘At the time I was even prepared to go back and do Part II and never ask for another goddamn penny or anything, just to finish it,’ he continues. ‘But the first thing I heard from the Salkinds was a cable of dismissal.’

Dick Lester sees it differently. ‘Donner had a terrible fight with the producers and he gave an interview to Variety, among other papers saying he wasn’t going to do "Superman II" unless there were considerable changes in the way the film was produced. Now, rightly or wrongly, they then said: "He’s not going to tell us how to produce a film" and they didn’t want to have any further dealings with him.’

‘They hired Dick Lester,’ said Donner around that time, ‘as an intermediary between me and Spengler. When he first came in I thought he was going to direct and so I sat down with him to get things straight.

‘But he said: "Look, these people have owed me money for a long time. This is my way of getting it back and I won’t come on your stage unless you invite me. There’s no way I would ever direct this; I don’t want to." From then on it was just a pleasure. The guy was a big help and I really like him.’

‘The circumstances were completely different by the time I came to direct II’ Lester says. ‘I had made two films, "Cuba" and "Butch and Sundance: The Early Days" and I had been nowhere near the Salkinds or "Superman". Dick was fired long before I got involved on II. Moreover a lawsuit had started between him and the Salkinds and needless to say it would have been most unwise for me to have got involved in any way.

Margot Kidder was another of the principals in the ‘Superman’ saga who faced legal entanglement with the Salkinds over money. ‘They tried to screw me out of $40,000 which was a huge amount of money to me and very little to them. I was in the middle of a divorce and I was badly in debt and I have my child to look after. But I was recommended to a lawyer who had helped all the people on "Musketeers" and as a result I renegotiated my deal and made a fortune on the second one. They were behaving totally illegally and it ended up costing them over a million.’

‘Donner made my career,’ she says. ‘He made Chris’s (Christopher Reeves), he made the Salkinds billions. And they turned round and stabbed him in the back. I mean I have nothing but contempt for them.’

And what does Christopher Reeve, himself, who plays Clark Kent and Superman with such uncanny authenticity, have to say about the whole business? TO tracked him down to the Hamptons outside New York where he’s shooting a movie of Ira Levin’s play ‘Death Trap’.

‘Donner had an impossible row with the producers over quality,’ he told us. ‘On "Superman I" he was the only one who kept things from being done in a shabby way and kept our morale high and made everyone do our best. And then he was fired behind my back and they - briefly - brought in Guy Hamilton.

‘There was nothing I could have done to get him back because all the contracts were signed before I was even told. So I felt a tremendous resentment against the producers for being so devious.

‘I was also very apprehensive because suddenly there was this new script that I didn’t feel was anything near as good as what Donner had worked on for Part II. And I think it’s appalling when you cut out a major actor like Marion Brando so you don’t have to pay him the gross, when decisions are made for economic reasons rather than for artistic reasons, that kind of banking style of film. making where everything is conducted in terms of international deals.

‘Frankly I found the producers untrustworthy, devious and unfortunate as people. They just are not the sort of people you want to give much time to. and I really did try to keep out of the business side because it’s like walking through treacle.

‘In any case I learnt pretty quickly that you can’t make a good movie with hostile feeling and when I met Lester I really liked and respected him and I didn’t blame him for what had happened at all. Part of the reason that "Superman II" is such a good movie is due to Lester’s enormous skill as a director. If it hadn’t been for that and the major legacy left by Donner and his footage - which I estimate at around 25% including all the material with Gene Hackman who never came back to shoot with Lester - it would have been a joke. Because in my view the way "Superman II" was produced is the lowest you can go without actually cheating. But I’m talking about the production, not the film.

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post #174 of 2287
8/5/04 at 8:30am
I'd be happy if they could just restore the Brando scenes. The omission of those hurt the movie the most, I think.
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post #175 of 2287
8/5/04 at 8:41am
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I'd be happy if they could just restore the Brando scenes. The omission of those hurt the movie the most, I think.
If for nothing else than continuity. I mean, in the first film, Jor-El places young Kal-El in the ship, in Part 2, in the flashback, it is his mother, Lara. They couldn't even reuse previously-filmed (and released) footage from S:TM!
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post #176 of 2287
8/5/04 at 9:00am
I'm going to say this as gently as possible....I want this footage released in any way, shape or form necessary. Twenty plus years ago I had seen the photos of Margot with her stunt double and I've seen the photos of Lois on the fruit stand after jumping out of the window....I must see this footage. I must see the Brando footage.

Mind you, before you say that I need a life- I do have one but watching either of the first three Superman movies, it takes me back to a time when I didn't have deadlines, I didn't have so much responsibility and I didn't worry about anything. I want to see what I read about all of those years ago and was denied. I will gladly double dip on this title. I will gladly buy copies for my friends so they can see what I've been going on and on about. I want this footage badly.

I am a geeky 30-something female who has the dialogue from Superman 1 & 2 memorized. Okay, maybe I do need a life.

Miss Randi
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post #177 of 2287
8/5/04 at 9:50am
Did Lester stab Donner in the back? No, I don't think so, Hamilton did take over the sequel for a short while in 79 before Lester was asked.


Yeah, but despite what Richard Lester said about the producers coming back to him later on about directing Superman II, I wouldn't mind betting that he was contractually obliged from the start to take over as director, in the event of Donner either resigning or being fired.

Also, I think I'm right in saying that it was Lester himself who brought in Guy Hamilton to oversee the script rewrites, which were being undertaken by George MacDonald Fraser. As I understand it, Hamilton was never actually going to direct the film himself. Although he was most likely influential in the casting of Clifton James as the Sheriff.
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post #178 of 2287
8/5/04 at 10:12am
I still want to know what Donner was going to do about the ending to Superman 2 after he changed 1. If he shot all of Luther's scenes...then he must have filmed the Fortress stuff and the stuff outside the fortress as well.

So that means he was a part of the ending we know now?
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post #179 of 2287
8/5/04 at 10:16am
Supposedly the Salkinds didn't even pay some crewmembers during that retarded Columbus movie with King Magnum p.i. Having a crew work on a movie, then not paying them is sooo scummy. I think it's a real tribute to Lester's skills as an editor and no-frills director that Superman 2, with it's slashed budget and missing actors, got finished coherently at all, and is actually quite good. Donner's version would still wipe the floor with it, though.
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post #180 of 2287
8/5/04 at 11:29am
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I still want to know what Donner was going to do about the ending to Superman 2 after he changed 1. If he shot all of Luther's scenes...then he must have filmed the Fortress stuff and the stuff outside the fortress as well.


He certainly did film the ending, but this was all before changes were made to finale of the first one.
Majority of the ending is featured in the extended television screenings:

The villains including Lex are taken away by the North Pole police
Superman and Lois talk outside the Fortress
Fortress is destroyed (incomplete F/X)
Superman and Lois break-up at her place on the balcony
Superman and the Daily Planet bully.

The Superman and Lois footage is much more passionate, little more sexual.
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Yeah, but despite what Richard Lester said about the producers coming back to him later on about directing Superman II, I wouldn't mind betting that he was contractually obliged from the start to take over as director, in the event of Donner either resigning or being fired.

Also, I think I'm right in saying that it was Lester himself who brought in Guy Hamilton to oversee the script rewrites, which were being undertaken by George MacDonald Fraser. As I understand it, Hamilton was never actually going to direct the film himself. Although he was most likely influential in the casting of Clifton James as the Sheriff.

I forgot about Fraser; you're right that Guy and George were revising the script before the Newmans took over. It's all rather convoluted.
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