Donner Superman 2 SE (merged thread) - Page 5

The Salkinds did not make Superman IV, Cannon did. The original material from the production may not exist anymore. The original cut may exist in some form, but it's unknown if Warner has a copy of it or not. It would be interesting to view, but I highly doubt restoration of Superman IV beyond just releasing the original cut would be possible.

If anyone doubts how much Donner actually filmed, check out this exhaustive analysis over at SupermanCinema:

Superman 2 Scene By Scene Analysis

According to its final breakdown on the last page, Now I have a several cuts of the film with the various ABC/International footage and have seen most of the publically available Donner scenes. While I question whether or not a Donner S2 could properly be released, I would love it if Warner would give Superman II the 2-disc SE treatment, and have an entire section for all the Donner deleted scenes. Oh, and while they are at it, I wish they would release the theatrical cut of Superman: The Movie as well.

Well, considering the "theatrical cut" isn't even completely shot by Lester to begin with... I can't see why reversing the majority of credited footage used would be unheard of. It's already a frankenstein of alternate footage, why not just make it a prettier one? Again, they own the footage, the music, everything... all they have to do is work out the rights on every angle.

Why were these on SNL?

Christopher Reeve was hosting in the early 80's. Now why he brought pictures of the Donner footage that wasn't even present in Superman 2 is beyond me. The shot they had was of Reeve all beaten up after the diner sequence, talking to Brando in the snow.

Thanks for that link, Zack. I've always wondered what Donner shot and what Lester shot. That's fascinating.

I talked with a film editor who worked with Sidney J. Furie (SUPERMAN IV's director) a while back, and he asked Furie if there was a SUPERMAN IV longer version someplace. Furie told him they put a long workprint assembly together at one point but that it was NEVER finished, never tested, and would never be released because the effects work wasn't completed (Cannon ran out of money, as evidenced by the final cut). From what he said, I don't think a finished "original cut" was ever properly compiled to begin with.

First off, they don't even "own" the footage. Salkind's trust does. That's why there was such a problem when the "Special Edition" of SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE came out, with all the alterations to the soundtrack and the film being re-cut. Pueblo Film (or whatever they're called) slapped a lawsuit on them.

As far as "reversing the majority of credited footage" -- Donner's SUPERMAN II was never COMPLETED, thus it does not, and will not ever, exist. Even if you put in all the scenes he directed, it still won't be Donner's movie, because the script he wanted to work with was re-written. It's not as if they can run in, throw all his scenes in there, and have the movie work. It will hardly be "prettier."

As a sidenote, a lot of people online seem also to have forgotten that Lester was involved heavily with SUPERMAN I as well -- not from a directorial standpoint, but rather a producing one (uncredited, but he was extensively involved with the shooting of the original, as accounted in David Michael Petrou's great book MAKING OF SUPERMAN). Saying (as some posters and sites have) that Lester walked in as an outsider and finished SUPERMAN II like he did a hack job is totally inaccurate, IMO, and does not accurately account for the work Lester did on all THREE of the original SUPERMAN films.

True, but the work Lester was DIRECTLY responsible for was some of the worst stuff in those three movies. I feel he only got ONE scene truly right in the 2 movies he was in creative control over: The Clark/Superman fight scene in Superman III. Everything else was just a little too campy and slipshod.

Lester's role on Superman was more as a go-between. The Salkinds liked him. they didn't really like Donner. Donner liked Lester. So Lester essentially was the messageboy. I know I'm over simplifying, but thats' about as deep as it went. Creative control was still very strongly in the hands of Donner and Mankiewicz on Superman. He did help production move along by not letting either side get hung up on the infighting between Donner and Spengler/Salkind.

And as far as the movie not working because the script was re-written--as long as 70 percent of Superman II was in the can, then the majority of that script was FILMED. It's an outside possibility, yes, but it can be done, reconciling the two filmed versions and mishmashing em into one.

And everytime I see the title of this thread, I get all excited, because I misread it as "Superman II Donner Cut under CONSTRUCTION," not "Consideration."


I dunno either, but I'd like to think it was his way of giving Donner props--he was not at ALL happy about Donner's firing, and I figure getting pictures of Donner's work out there SOMEHOW would be a nice way of paying respect to what he did.

Perhaps *own* wasn't the word I was looking for, *have* is better. As far as I can tell, the footage is in Warner's possession, just as the entirety of Supergirl was in their vaults. As I said before, the rights are the issue.

As for the lawsuit, Pueblo obviously didn't get very far if Warner retained the right to continue offering the director's cut on home video.



You're putting words in my mouth and ignoring what else I've said.



Judging from the evidence of what currently exists, that is entirely debatable. Your opinion is just that, as many other people involved on the film don't seem to agree with it. I, however, will wait to see what Warner chooses to do if/when they are able to sort the rights out. Clearly they understand the interest, so ultimately the decision is in their court.



I haven't forgotten anything. Lester's "production" credit is argued on some sides as little more than an open threat from the Salkind's. I have not yet seen one official source other than theirs that offers any evidence that he had any creative input on the series BEFORE he was assigned to takeover on II (which I believe inspired the events in "Scrooged" with John Glover's character). In fact, I do believe they even courted Guy Hamilton again somewhere after Donner's departure and before Lester's taking of the reigns. I would really like to see Petrou's book as it seems to be at complete odds with what I've read and heard regarding the series.

Let's not forget that it's apparent that even more of Donner's Superman II footage was recycled in III.



Just wanted to add that I agree with your every point and that it was well said.



I also want to add that Donner wasn't the only one who suffered. The work of Stuart Baird, John Williams and even Geoffrey Unsworth (on his final film before dying!!!) was either canned or shelved, despite their toiling for years. To think that Williams and Baird could complete their work on this film so many years later (not unlike Robert Wise on Star Trek: The Motion Picture) is staggering. It's not impossible, or improbable. Again, I'll wait and see how events turn out as the hype for Singer and the Donners' new vision of Superman builds.

That makes a lot of sense. I mean, frequently incomplete versions are shown to gauge audience appeal. I'll have to see if I can find anyone who actually *saw* the original cut... but maybe it never did exist.

I hope the Donner version of S2 with footage from the current version can be put together and released after all the right issues are sorted out. I know something like this might garner great DVD sales since interest is high in seeing what Donner shot for S2.

I think the biggest factor in the possibility of a "Donner cut" is whether or not they filmed the original version of the scene where Lois discovers that Clark is Superman. To see the Brando footage, the Daily Planet plunge and everything else would be great, but logistically it won't fit within the context of the film unless Kidder is right and Donner did in fact shoot the scene.

For now, all we have is that partial screen test of Kidder with Reeve to represent what it could have been like. As long as that footage exists, I do believe (and it's just my *theory) that is possible to reconstruct the film to be darn close to his original intention. Whatever happens, a 2-disc release of Superman II could be mighty interesting.

It all comes down to money - just how many copies would Warners sell IF they could assemble a version worth releasing? We don't really know how well the current discs have done.

Considering just how much this has already cost them (in just legal fees), and how much more it would run in actual assembly (not to mention the probability of a whole new score, new FX shots, redubbing, etc.) I have my doubts this could ever come to be.

Somehow I don't think any of the Superman movies have sold enough on DVD to consider this project a goldmine, as fascinating or worthy as it may be from a film-goers perspective. Even Warners under its current leadership (who should rightfully be commended for its many restoration efforts) still has to make sure the P&L's make sense.

Of course. But then this is the same company that just spent who knows what on a Gothika 2-disc when the single disc release is still posing massive overstock problems at all the Best Buys in my region...

Seriously, though, I completely agree. From what I've seen in retail stores, the original Superman sells fine, but Superman II is definitely less so. I don't even think the major retailers bother with III or IV anymore. I stopped by Best Buy yesterday and they had several copies of II and the box set, but The Movie was out of stock.

Again, I just point to the trends. They did an overhaul on The Movie and it paid off. They seem to prefer investing in quality 2-discs to coincide with new theatrical films (the upcoming Batman special editions, etc.) and have already said they took notice of the interest in such a release of Superman II, whatever they mean by "extended".

I point out again that the *possible* "Donner Cut" was the second highest request on the Warner 2-disc thread that WHV sponsored earlier this year. Coupled with the recent developments with Brando, the Donner-produced sequel and the upcoming release of Blade Runner (#1 requested on the thread)... *IF* it's possible, we'll only see it when Superman Returns hits in 2006. That's why I'm saying we should show our interest now, as pre-planning for such a release (even if the footage is supplemental *only*) will take that much time.

Clearly Superman II is no Blade Runner, but they WERE going to pay for the reconstruction of that film. Fans have expressed much interest and they have confirmed their own. As such, it couldn't hurt to tell Warner we would like to see more done with II, regardless of what we believe their capabilities are.

All the above sounds great, but even a SE edition of S2 with remixed 5.1 ST and improved transfer will make me happy!

It's so damn frustrating to go from S1 to S2 with that HUGE drop in presentation quality...

Warner Brothers, let's get this done! Make it so! None of the filmmakers, film scorers, and/or actors are getting any younger!

DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!

Make Superman II finally shine.

Dan

I think a 2-disc Donner cut DVD of II would sell just as well as Superman: The Movie SE, if not better. I'm pretty sure all the Superman fans would be thrilled to see II finally get a proper treatment on DVD. I picked up a copy of II for like $7, but I would gladly "double dip" for a new edition of this film.

While we can all dream, me thinks the chances of this happening are as likely as McG doing a 'Gone With The Wind' Remake.

If they ever get to do this, I hope they can get it re-scored with John Williams and the London Symphony Orchestra. That would go a long way in improving overall quality.

As for IV, if the original footage of the extended version still exists and FX work is all that stands in the way, the FX could surely be completed today. Of course, WB would probably only fund that if a Donner DC of S2 sold really well.

I just picked up the theatrical cuts of II and III this past weekend at Best Buy for $20, and II is one title I will more than gladly double-dip in purchasing when it is fully realized. As to how WHV will pull it off, it better be convincing for Superman fans everywhere.

The official word on Superman IV is that a test audience showing of the original 134-minute master cut of the film was shown in Orange County, California prior to its theatrical release. The reaction to that sneak preview was so horrible, that Warner Bros. ordered the film to be edited prior to its release, and the footage destroyed. This is why 40+ minutes of footage was chopped out and the rest of the film was slammed together. Even Marc McClure (Jimmy Olsen) commented that the comprehension in the film's story was lost to anyone over the age of three.

Of course, here's where it gets interesting. A wild rumor surfaced during the mid-1990's which said that the complete 134-minute print of Superman IV aired on the now-defunct SFM Holiday Network series of movies in 1989 (just prior to Viacom's syndicated pickup of the film in 1990), and that IV was one of the last, if not THE last, film in its network. The urban legend has it that someone's brother/sister/mother/father/aunt/uncle/friend recorded that broadcast, but then the tape was lost/destroyed/recorded over. You would not believe how many variants on this story was reported.

Here are the established facts to set the record straight:
- A Christopher Reeve film did in fact air on SFM around 1988-89, but it was NOT Superman IV; rather, a 60-minute made-for-TV movie called "The Last Ferry Home". I know, because I recorded it and still have it on tape to this day.
- The master print of Superman IV was never shown on SFM. Contacts to former employees of SFM in the late 90's confirmed that the film never aired on TV in that raw form.
- I personally attempted to contact Sidney J. Furie via his agent in California to see if he would be willing to share any information on the making of the film and the whereabouts of the lost footage. This was in the summer of 1998. I never heard from Furie nor his agent, so this made me conclude that Furie was still not willing to talk about the film.
- As for the above rumor of the "existence" of the master print, it was even listed on a message board that a fellow in Washington state had the film on VHS and that he was selling it for $20. The man's name and mailing address was also listed. I personally wrote the fellow and inquired about it, and he wrote in reply, and I quote, "Sorry, I don't have Superman IV." That confirmed once and for all that that rumor was in fact a dead end.
- Some of the footage from the original master print did in fact survive into various trailers and TV spots. For the U.S. trailer, two clips of Lex Luthor smiling and of the Nuclear Man in his housing silo were included. (This is on the current WHV DVD of IV.) There was also an international trailer issued out by Cannon Films that included a clip of Superman fighting the first Nuclear Man (Clive Mantle). That trailer was included on the head of the overseas VHS release of Cannon's "Masters of the Universe". For the Viacom 1990 TV premiere, another clip, of Clark and Lacy kissing in the backseat of a cab, was used; this clip was also used in the overseas trailer. For one of the film's rare TV spots, two additional clips were also included. One was of Luthor and his nephew donning nuclear helmets and watching the creation of the first Nuclear Man, and the other clip was of Luthor pointing to the second Nuclear Man (Mark Pillow) and saying to Superman, "Isn't that adorable?"
- There's also a number of behind-the-scenes film clips that were shown on Entertainment Tonight in 1987 that showed the staging of Superman's encounter with the second Nuclear Man at Luthor's hideout and on the moon. The pacing of the first mentioned sequence was much longer than what was on screen, and it was also suggested that Luthor's twin girlfriends were also witness to the confrontation as well. The second scene showed Christopher Reeve directing Superman's battle with Nuclear Man on the moon, setting up camera angles and flying positions.
- The most obvious alternate version of the film was Cannon's 93-minute release of the film in overseas markets. This included the two scenes of Superman saving a little girl from a tornado and of Superman stopping a nuclear missile in Red Square. These two snippets were edited from the film's U.S. theatrical run but were included in the overseas showings, along with a slightly different main credit sequence with the Cannon logo and text at the start. The Japanese showing even included a crystalline version of the film logo in Kanji text! This version of the film was released in widescreen laserdisc, in 2:1 format, from Tohokushinsha Home Video, and I have a copy of this variant in my personal collection.
- In an online chat in 1998, and in Jeff Bond's book "The Music of Star Trek", Alexander Courage confirmed that he composed 105 minutes of music for the film, which supports the fact that the 134-minute version did in fact exist.
- However, a recent eBay auction purported the existence of a workprint of the uncut original version of the film. According to information I received, it was 2:10 in length, which would seem to further support the fact of a 134-minute master cut. Two reported screencaps from Superman's battle with the first Nuclear Man were included as proof of the auction, along with text descriptions of the added scenes and a trailer from the film. Attempts to obtain further screencaps from the seller turned up empty, as he said that the video had already been sold. Because of the amount of plotholes in this scenario, it leads me to believe that this was a bogus auction, since no verifiable proof as to the master cut's existence was obtained.

So will we ever see a fully-released version of IV on a SE DVD, with completed CGI effects and all of the restored footage? Probably not. Then again, we said the same thing about Ridley Scott's original cut of "Legend" and David Fincher's original version of "Alien 3", and we've got them on DVD, so you never know, but I'm not holding my breath over it either.

When I was a kid, I had the young people's novelization of superman IV, and it was obviously based upn the original cut of the film, as the story detailed a ton of stuff not shown in the film, including photos of scenes not in the film.

Still have my copy, as I discovered digging through boxes of old paperbacks I had last week. Read it, and as written, it would've made a watchable film.

As Supes II goes, I'd gladly spring for a 2-disc set, along with finally getting a copy of the current STM disc.

I think it's funny that, along with my consistent misreading of this thread title--right now this thread is DIRECTLY above another thread.

that thread title?

"Mission Impossible."

but so as to still hold out hope:


Don't see why not. Paramount dropped dough to add FX for Star Trek the Motion Picture. Spielberg did it for ET. We all know about that one big haired flannel wearing bearded dude and his movies about space hippies wearing bathrobes. I don't see why WB wouldn't spring for FX work if they're going whole hog with it.

I do admit your suggestion about dumping em in a deleted scenes section is entirely more plausible though.

Highlander 2 even received a CGI facelift for DVD. HIGHLANDER 2!!!!!

Me neither, so I got a used S1 for $9 and was delighted with it (of course).

However, I had forgotten that S2 was totally linked, so I started looking for a deal on S2.

Saw one for $13, but after reading about S2's troubled production and lame DVD performance, decided to pass.

Just found S2 used for $10 and decided to buy it.

Hope they recut and expand it, but this will have to do for now.

Would a donner cut really require new effects? I'm sure back then they would have done some simple low-tech "white-out" when Jor-el gives up his energy, so they shouldn't do any different now. As far as Lester footage, is there anything of his that HAS to be used besides Niagra Falls exterior, and (recut) footage of the Metropolis battle and East Houston? With the campy lameness taken out that can't add up to more than the amount of donner stuff in the existing version? A "Donner-ish" cut would simply be balancing out the universe.