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The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

post #1 of 31
9/27/07 at 11:43am
Thread Starter 
I have had a few people PM me and a few buddies of mine beg for some feedback on DTS Master decoding, so here it is

today I decided to sit down with Alien vs Predator from Fox and enjoy the film at it's finest with DTS Master audio

as of late last week I had completed a fully HDMI 1.3 compliant setup and was anxious to watch an entire film

here is my setup, everything audio wise for those interested:

Atlantic Technology A-2000 amp
Atlantic Technology System 370 5.0 speakers
Onkyo Pro PR-SC885P pre-amp (Integra DTC-9.8 clone)
dual latest SVS 16-46+ subs
Velodyne SMS-1
Samsung BDP-1400

I don't want to go off into my usual excitement over something I really like because once I get started I could go on for ages, so I will make it short and sweet

the DTS 1506kbps cores from the DTS Master tracks simply pale in comparison with the lossless DTS Master track themselves, I mean really who would have doubted that ?, we are comparing a very lossy sound format versus something the magnitude of PCM and beyond

enjoying AVP with this level of audio takes things to another level, every channel is a magnitude higher in quality with lossless audio, including subwoofer action which I feel near to saying gets the most improvement of all, the bass is simply so realistic that it can literally scare you

as with TrueHD, PCM etc. you can crank and crank the volume without ever feeling any ill effects

it is apples to oranges comparing TrueHD vs PCM vs DTS Master from different films, so it is really pointless to comment on that, but the DTS Master track from AVP is seriously one of the best examples of audio I have heard so far from either format, easily in my top 2 or 3 picks for audio

I have always been a fan of Fox and the audio on their various media releases, they are always top notch in that area, I think when people get to hear DTS MAster audio they will come to appreciate Fox even more and their 40$ MSRP prices

I am counting the days until I Robot and the Die Hard films

thanks guys

-Gary
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post #2 of 31
9/27/07 at 11:45am

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

I hate you.

*Sulks off, impatiently waiting for SCEA to add DTS-MA decoding to the PS3*
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post #3 of 31
9/27/07 at 12:02pm

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Why is it apples to oranges to compare PCM vs TrueHD vs DTS-MA? I would really like to know how it stacks up against Pirates PCM or Superman Returns TrueHD. (insert whatever titles you want)
Obviously they are different films with different sound dynamics but I think you can still make some kind of comparison.
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post #4 of 31
9/27/07 at 12:18pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

well another track that is on this level of audio quality is 300 PCM on Blu-ray

the Pirates films are also reference for sure, I believe they have 24-bit audio, does anyone know what bit the DTS Master tracks are at on the various Fox releases ?

another great track is the TrueHD track from Fifth Element, it is 20-bit and is better than the 16-bit PCM on the same release

it's really hard to compare different films on a basis of sound quality, there are too many variables IMHO

-Gary
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post #5 of 31
9/27/07 at 12:18pm

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southpaw
Why is it apples to oranges to compare PCM vs TrueHD vs DTS-MA? I would really like to know how it stacks up against Pirates PCM or Superman Returns TrueHD. (insert whatever titles you want)
Obviously they are different films with different sound dynamics but I think you can still make some kind of comparison.

Has anybody suggested there can possibly be an audible difference between DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD which should sound identical to lossless PCM. If there are any articles suggesting audible differences, I would like to read them.

Chris
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post #6 of 31
9/27/07 at 12:25pm

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard
Has anybody suggested there can possibly be an audible difference between DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD which should sound identical to lossless PCM. If there are any articles suggesting audible differences, I would like to read them.

Chris

Well, according to Gary up above, the TrueHD track on Fifth Element is better than the PCM so they are not all equal. I can't testify to that but I respect his opinion.
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post #7 of 31
9/27/07 at 1:01pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

it differs guys of course, I have been meaning to compare TrueHD vs PCM on Ghost Rider, that should be a fun comparison

-Gary
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post #8 of 31
9/27/07 at 2:53pm

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Although in principle I'm against two different, incompatible hi-res audio formats delivering the same lossless signal, I'm glad that it appears to work and that it's that good!

Hey, wait a minute! What was that first thing I just said... ?


Cees
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post #9 of 31
9/27/07 at 3:05pm

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

haven't we all been able to decode DTS-MA for the longest time now? I have a 24/96 7.1 audio card with analog outputs into my receiver and I've been able to decode DTS-MA for the longest time now. I thought everyone was doing the same thing?
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post #10 of 31
9/27/07 at 3:35pm

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Friggen finally a player can do SOMETHING with DTS MA. Is this the only one thus far? Blu or HD? I missed this anouncement altogether.

I can attest that the dolbyTrue 300 track indeed is less aggressive than the PCM!
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post #11 of 31
9/27/07 at 3:45pm

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Gary,

Did you get a "secret" firmware upgrade on your Samsung BD-P1400?
Is the DTS-HD MA track decoded inside your player or in your receiver? And in the latter case, how does the bitstream get there?

The specs of the BD-P1400 didn't mention DTS-HD Master support and bitstream output for HDMI 1.3 was only announced for the BD-P2400 (after a firmware upgrade). The 1400 normally doesn't have the option (nor for Dolby TrueHD), ASFAIK.

Most reports seem to say that owners didn't find a possibility to output the DTS master bitstream to their receivers.

So, tell us!


Cees
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post #12 of 31
9/27/07 at 4:22pm

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southpaw
Well, according to Gary up above, the TrueHD track on Fifth Element is better than the PCM so they are not all equal. I can't testify to that but I respect his opinion.

96kHz/24-bit Dolby TrueHD should be equal to 96kHz/24-bit DTS-HD MA which should be equal to 96kHz/24-bit lossless PCM. I can't see how there can be any difference if all are encoded at the same levels. It may be different decoders can decode differently, but that should have nothing to do with the digital audio formats. If something has happened to somehow make them sound different, I am still looking for something to read that explains how and why. I have heard 96kHz/24-bit LPCM and 96kHz/24-bit stereo MLP and find no audible difference.

Chris
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post #13 of 31
9/27/07 at 4:31pm

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
Although in principle I'm against two different, incompatible hi-res audio formats delivering the same lossless signal, I'm glad that it appears to work and that it's that good!

Hey, wait a minute! What was that first thing I just said... ?


Cees

Apparently new firmware adds the DTS-HD MA support. I am not sure how as I understood the player didn't have the hardware necessary but Gary has confirmed it here. Here is the claim at Blu-ray.com:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=17174

Here is a link to firmware at the Samsung site:

http://www.samsung.com/us/support/do...Type=D&vType=R

Chris
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post #14 of 31
9/27/07 at 4:49pm

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

So the "secret" firmware upgrade is revealed!


Cees
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post #15 of 31
9/27/07 at 6:56pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Cees, with the Samsung 1400, you simply need the latest firmware

the 1400 ships with HDMI 1.3 capable hardware, so any new player with HDMI 1.3 can send out bitstream of the latest audio formats as long as it is in the firmware, then on the other end all you need is a HDMI 1.3 capable receiver or pre-amp with built in DTS HD, DTS Master, Dolby TrueHD etc. decoding and you are ready to rock

here is a image for you guys from my Onkyo pre-amp display:



this pre-amp will decode DTS-HD Hi Res, DTS Master, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD etc. from any device that sends them out via HDMI 1.3, this includes the soon to be updated Toshiba XA2 which is also HDMI 1.3

so far though the Samsung 1400 is the only currently available item in the world that outputs bitstreams via HDMI 1.3

-Gary
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post #16 of 31
9/27/07 at 9:00pm

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

does it also decode it in the player an output over analog to amp 5.1 analog in? or is bitstream over HDMI to a receiver that can decode it the only option?
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post #17 of 31
9/28/07 at 12:09am

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Quote:
and you are ready to rock



Cees
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post #18 of 31
9/28/07 at 2:38am

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

It would make me more appreciative of Samsung , Onkyo or Toshiba rather than Fox

I hope we're not on the crest of another dts vs Dolby era

~M~
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post #19 of 31
9/28/07 at 5:58am

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Cool Gary!
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post #20 of 31
9/28/07 at 6:27am

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manus
It would make me more appreciative of Samsung , Onkyo or Toshiba rather than Fox

I hope we're not on the crest of another dts vs Dolby era
Manus, it wouldn't really surprise me at all.

You know, if you have a text-file and then compress it, using zip and arc (an older compression program some may remember), you can decode (unzip and de-arc) the two latter files and get the text file back, totally equal to the original and to each other. (A difference only indicates an error.)

So, the resultant signal (bit-file) of TrueHD and DTS-HD MA should be equal and also equal to the PCM file.

Yet, I'm sure people will "hear differences", of the type "to my ears it simply sounded more brilliant", etc. and fervently start to favour one of the compressed formats - or the no-compression-at-all tracks (PCM).


What also strikes me is this (hence the little joke in post #8): many HD enthusiasts, most of them on the BD side, were very vocally stating that two formats are a disaster, will confuse the consumer (no, a combo-player would only "prolong the war"), and in short, the other format had to die.

But many of the same people weren't heard at all when a second lossless audio codec threatened to be brought to the market, totally incompatible with the first one and both yielding a lossless signal. Indeed one of these two audio-"formats" wasn't even there, so why not stop it instead of allowing this new consumer's confusion?

In fact, I'm pretty sure the same arguments against two competing formats won't even be heard now. Or at best hardly some.


Cees
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post #21 of 31
9/28/07 at 6:51am

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

" But many of the same people weren't heard at all when a second lossless audio codec threatened to be brought to the market, totally incompatible with the first one and both yielding a lossless signal. Indeed one of these two audio-"formats" wasn't even there, so why not stop it instead of allowing this new consumer's confusion? "


You keep thinking logically like that and you're going to have to 'moderate' yourself

Here is the future , Dts-Hd Ma 7.1 with knobs on :

http://madhavgopalkrish.wordpress.co...tive-features/


Im going to try to keep out of that debate for as long as possible ..


~M~
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post #22 of 31
9/28/07 at 7:35am

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Quote:
96kHz/24-bit Dolby TrueHD should be equal to 96kHz/24-bit DTS-HD MA which should be equal to 96kHz/24-bit lossless PCM.
Keep in mind that True HD can be configured with Dial Norm on. DTS HD and PCM don't have such a beast.

Please note PCM isn't lossless, it's just uncompressed.
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post #23 of 31
9/28/07 at 8:25am

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
Cees, with the Samsung 1400, you simply need the latest firmware

the 1400 ships with HDMI 1.3 capable hardware, so any new player with HDMI 1.3 can send out bitstream of the latest audio formats as long as it is in the firmware, then on the other end all you need is a HDMI 1.3 capable receiver or pre-amp with built in DTS HD, DTS Master, Dolby TrueHD etc. decoding and you are ready to rock

here is a image for you guys from my Onkyo pre-amp display:

Gary, have you discerned any benefit to decoding it in the receiver? More flexibility?
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post #24 of 31
9/28/07 at 8:44am

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

F'in finally.
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post #25 of 31
9/28/07 at 5:49pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyErwin
Gary, have you discerned any benefit to decoding it in the receiver? More flexibility?

I have always preffered decoding inside the pre-amp, very very nice, a few people are reporting that decoding of these new formats is even better when done in this manner, I agree with that very much

I am counting the days until this hits for the Toshiba players, the new A35 player has this ability out of the box and is confirmed to be just as sweet

-Gary
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post #26 of 31
9/28/07 at 7:50pm

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

When decoding the audio this way, can you still hear secondary audio tracks such as interactive commentaries and PIP features like Warner's In-Move experience? The way I understand it, these audio signals have to be decoded inside the player, mixed into the regular soundtacks and then output as PCM to the receiver. I wouldn't mind losing the annoying beeps and swooshes that accompany menu controls, but I'd hate to lose the audio for commentaries and neat interactive stuff.
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post #27 of 31
9/29/07 at 2:55am

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manus
You keep thinking logically like that and you're going to have to 'moderate' yourself


Quote:
I'm going to try to keep out of that debate for as long as possible ..
Ditto. I know what to think of it all.


Cees
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post #28 of 31
9/29/07 at 1:00pm

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Quote:
I am counting the days until this hits for the Toshiba players


Integra was doing bitstream out at their CEDIA booth with their XA2 knockoff. The Toshiba engineers had just left their booth after updating the firmware, so I would expect to see it soon. The only catch is I don't know how it would work if you were using the second audio decoder since the mixing wouldn't take place in the player (think 300 PIP w/ commentary)
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post #29 of 31
9/29/07 at 2:17pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich
Integra was doing bitstream out at their CEDIA booth with their XA2 knockoff. The Toshiba engineers had just left their booth after updating the firmware, so I would expect to see it soon. The only catch is I don't know how it would work if you were using the second audio decoder since the mixing wouldn't take place in the player (think 300 PIP w/ commentary)

the newest top end Toshiba, the A35, is ready to rock out of the box with bitstreaming, I have one on the way to replace my XA2, I don't need the XA2 for what I bought it for anymore(analog audio etc.) and want to see what the latest offers

I will check this stuff out that you mentioned and see what gives, should be here wednesday of this week, can't wait to fire up that T2 HD-DVD with DTS Master

-Gary
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post #30 of 31
9/29/07 at 3:32pm

Re: The full apprectiation of Fox is now at hand and it rocks! (DTS-Master)

I would keep the XA2 over the A35. It is still their top end model--the A35 is NOT it's replacement. It has the Reon chip, better cosmetics, and will get the bitstream output upgrade via firmware.
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