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post #61 of 103
Thread Starter 

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.S
Understood, Brian. Let me re-phrase my responsive comments: shouldn't you/we be crankin' Let's Dance and Up and otherwise enjoying what we've got instead of typing about what we've not?

Well, not quite - see the problem Paul is that when I put something like Pink Floyd DSoTM, or my HK import of Air Supply, or hell, even the 2 channel Cyndi Lauper disc, it drives me nuts: this format kicks ass! I need *more* software!!!

I'm just venting because SACD was/is ->the<- format, and not only did it not get the treatment it should have, but the proprieter (Sony Music) has completely neglected SACD. Then Sony goes and releases newer SACD hardware, so the excitement builds "are we going to get another push for SACD?" and nothing. The PS3 SACD support made me think "wow, this might actually be it" (the push to get more SACDs released) and sadly it isn't. And has been pointed out, even Sony's BD players (PS3 aside) don't even support SACD which is just sad.

I'm still convinced if Sony had made SACD hybrid from Day 1, it would have been easier to push through newer releases. Yes, we have hybrids now, but I think the initial 'oomph' disappeared.

Sometimes I just hope (and I know the grim reality) that Sony reads the messages and will get back on the SACD band wagon, but unfortunately doesn't.
post #62 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Quote:
Well, not quite - see the problem Paul is that when I put something like Pink Floyd DSoTM, or my HK import of Air Supply, or hell, even the 2 channel Cyndi Lauper disc, it drives me nuts: this format kicks ass! I need *more* software!!!

I feel you, Brian . . .

. . . but Air Supply?!! (I keed, I keed.)

We could go on and on though. For instance, speaking of Ms. Lauper, Sony released a remastered Girls Just Wanna Have Fun CD after the SACD release. WTF? Same thing with Dances With Wolves . . . and that had previously unreleased cues!

Quote:
The PS3 SACD support made me think "wow, this might actually be it" (the push to get more SACDs released) and sadly it isn't.
See I never thought that. I knew that that was done simply for "legacy" software support and to help justify the PS3's price, not because Sony Computer Entertainment was actually coordinating with Sony BMG nee Sony Music Entertainment in some example of corporate cooperation and synergy. I know from first-hand employment experience that Sony does not operate that way. Each division is like a "silo," with not nearly the level of synergy you would assume between companies--and they are exactly that: separate companies with the same parent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard
I don't have an HDMI receiver yet either but I do have the Oppo DV-980H that has the SACD option of pure DSD or conversion to PCM for use over HDMI. Will either method be any better than using the analog connections? I doubt if I could tell the difference, but for some reason I want to know that from first hand experience.

Chris I wanna make sure I understand, given that it sounds like you're comparing supposedly three different SACD playback methods: 1) "pure DSD"; 2) "conversion to PCM for use over HDMI"; and 3) "analog connections."

Regarding option 1, what does the Oppo do in "pure DSD" mode? It "decodes" the DSD and outputs it via analog? It's not my understanding that any player outputs a digital, "pure DSD" signal to then be decoded by some outboard device.

Options 2 and 3 I think involve a conversion to PCM first before outputting via those different respective outputs, yes? There was a LOT of Forum debate about this around the time of the release of Pio's 563A, the first budget "universal" player of decent quality, because it was posited/theorized that the player converted to PCM before outputting.

Frankly, I don't think I cared enough to drill down to a clear answer--to the extent one existed--because I'd think the differences are infinitesimal. Having said that, if the DACs in the pre/pro are better than those in the player, then HDMI is--on paper--the way to go.
post #63 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Don't forget that bass management is generally very poor or non-existant in SACD players.....

The older SACD players required analog connections which meant that the only reasonable way to get adequate bass management was to pony up the $300 for the Outlaw ICBM.
post #64 of 103
Thread Starter 

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.S

. . . but Air Supply?!! (I keed, I keed.)

I swear it's one of the *best* sounding SACDs in my meager collection. It sounds like I'm in the recording studio while it's being recorded. Other SACDs are, sadly, lacking. But still better than red book CD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.S
I knew that that was done simply for "legacy" software support and to help justify the PS3's price, not because Sony Computer Entertainment was actually coordinating with Sony BMG nee Sony Music Entertainment in some example of corporate cooperation and synergy. I know from first-hand employment experience that Sony does not operate that way.

Actually it wasn't even done for legacy or price justification - it was done merely to show off the horsepower under the PS3s hood.

And, as a former Sony employee (SCEA no less), I've been at the front line of the whole 'synergy' thing, and back when Sony acquired Columbia/Tri-Star (and Columbia music to a limited degree), it was a joke then. Sony even went so far to set up a licensing division called "Sony Signatures" which sole job was to handle licensing 'synergy' - they tried to bilk other Sony groups for as much as possible. But there were gray areas as well, and side negotiations with teh movie studio for example.

Anyway, that was in the past, and yes, each Sony group operates independently rather than trying to co-exist or figure out how to maximize hardware and software sales. They have it all, and still 14 years later can't quite make it work. At least not fluidly.
post #65 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.S
I feel you, Brian . . .

. . . but Air Supply?!! (I keed, I keed.)

We could go on and on though. For instance, speaking of Ms. Lauper, Sony released a remastered Girls Just Wanna Have Fun CD after the SACD release. WTF? Same thing with Dances With Wolves . . . and that had previously unreleased cues!


See I never thought that. I knew that that was done simply for "legacy" software support and to help justify the PS3's price, not because Sony Computer Entertainment was actually coordinating with Sony BMG nee Sony Music Entertainment in some example of corporate cooperation and synergy. I know from first-hand employment experience that Sony does not operate that way. Each division is like a "silo," with not nearly the level of synergy you would assume between companies--and they are exactly that: separate companies with the same parent.



Chris I wanna make sure I understand, given that it sounds like you're comparing supposedly three different SACD playback methods: 1) "pure DSD"; 2) "conversion to PCM for use over HDMI"; and 3) "analog connections."

Regarding option 1, what does the Oppo do in "pure DSD" mode? It "decodes" the DSD and outputs it via analog? It's not my understanding that any player outputs a digital, "pure DSD" signal to then be decoded by some outboard device.

Options 2 and 3 I think involve a conversion to PCM first before outputting via those different respective outputs, yes? There was a LOT of Forum debate about this around the time of the release of Pio's 563A, the first budget "universal" player of decent quality, because it was posited/theorized that the player converted to PCM before outputting.

Frankly, I don't think I cared enough to drill down to a clear answer--to the extent one existed--because I'd think the differences are infinitesimal. Having said that, if the DACs in the pre/pro are better than those in the player, then HDMI is--on paper--the way to go.

Actually, there are four possible ways for players to handle SACD with receivers having analog and HDMI inputs I am aware of.

1. DSD>PCM>analog processed by player.

2. DSD>PCM>HDMI (requires HDMI 1.1) to be processed by separate decoder.

3. DSD>analog processed by player.

4. DSD>HDMI (requires HDMI 1.2a) to be processed by separate decoder.

My Oppo DV-980H does 1, 2, and 4. I have only heard 1 and 3 which has been discussed often. I don't doubt the differences are infintesimal to the human ear. I also don't know if the separate DSD decoder once again can take the pure DSD signal from 4 and be designed to convert to PCM. Of course there are also players with proprietary digital connections or IEEE 1394 that may or may not convert to PCM and I don't know if that would present audibly different results. I have read claims differences are apparent among the various methods.

Chris
post #66 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard
1. DSD>PCM>analog processed by player.
2. DSD>PCM>HDMI (requires HDMI 1.1) to be processed by separate decoder.
3. DSD>analog processed by player.
4. DSD>HDMI (requires HDMI 1.2a) to be processed by separate decoder.

My Oppo DV-980H does 1, 2, and 4.

if it does 4, why would it not do 3 instead of 1?

or does it have to do 1 because of in-player BM?
post #67 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Paul, I actually splurged for a PS3 before I even got the new TV! (For someone whose gaming time is measured in minutes rather than hours, those free demo downloads are perfect! On the other hand, my birthday's coming up and Stranglehold is really calling to me.)

Goofy hobby, indeed.
post #68 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeisalK
if it does 4, why would it not do 3 instead of 1?

or does it have to do 1 because of in-player BM?

Yes, It is my understanding coversion to PCM is required because of bass management. I am not aware of any players that can do bass management for analog output without that conversion.

Chris
post #69 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

4,800th title added at sa-cd.net

With 3 months to go until the end of the year, it's possible SACD will reach 5,000 titles by that time.
post #70 of 103
Thread Starter 

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Danny, how come SA-CD.net doesn't list the SACDs in your signature?
post #71 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-W
Danny, how come SA-CD.net doesn't list the SACDs in your signature?

Sony has referred all online SACD title reference to SA-CD.net, and as far as I know, it is run by one person (try going to Sony Europe's formerly "superaudio-cd.com"). Given that fact, I was told by sa-cd.net's owner that as of September 1, 2005, he will no longer be adding SACD titles from Hong Kong/China/Taiwan or any other parts of Asia, aside those from Japan. The reasons given include were of commercial nature and that he didn't have enough time to add those titles.

I will be adding 5 more titles to my signature link. These are just the ones I owned....that are many more SACD titles that are not documented at sa-cd.net.
post #72 of 103
Thread Starter 

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

that's a shame - the owner should open up SA-CD.net to users and let users add details.
post #73 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-W
that's a shame - the owner should open up SA-CD.net to users and let users add details.

He does....as long as the title is listed on the site. For example, UK jazz vocalist Stacey Kent has a SACD called "Stacey Kent Collection" and it was released for about a year before it appeared on sa-cd.net. The title was licenced by a music label in Singapaore for release on SACD. Similarly, Petula Clark has a SACD that was licensed for release by Hong Kong label, Top Music....but it has yet to make it to sa-cd.net.
post #74 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Wonderful to see: I think this is the first standalone high def player to support SACD.

http://www.avland.co.uk/pioneer/bdplx90/bdplx90.htm
post #75 of 103
Thread Starter 

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Supposedly that's a 'wish list' player, and a photoshop mock up. I believe it, as Pioneer has yet to announce an SACD capable BD player anywhere in the world.
post #76 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Quote:
Supposedly that's a 'wish list' player, and a photoshop mock up.
According to whom please?
post #77 of 103
Thread Starter 

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.S
According to whom please?

It's been debated ad-naseum at AVS. There's also been zero announcement from any region (North America, Japan, Asia, Europe, U.K.) for this player or any player with even the remote # of specs (namely SACD) from Pioneer.

Additionally, every website links back to your link, which is a retailer. It's been the only retailer to advertise it as well (aside from an Hong Kong retailer who copied the AV link). Strange don't you think? Finally, it's been on that retailers site since April of this year.

I'd like to think that a player like that is coming, but Pioneer just announced a new player due out now, and it doesn't have those specs. CEATAC just happened as well and nothing out of the show for a high end unit with all those specs - and Japan is generally always first for the newest high end products from Pioneer.
post #78 of 103
Thread Starter 

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news...m+Pioneer.html

There is this player that Pioneer just announced yesterday (but it's an SACD player only, and for Japan).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer CEATEC Exhibit
Main exhibited products:
- Plasma display TVs "KURO" (PDP-6010HD, PDP-5010HD, etc.)
- AV multi-channel amplifiers (VSA-LX70, etc)
- 5.1ch surround systems (HTP-LX70, etc)
- Blu-ray Disc player (BDP-LX80)
- Speaker systems (S-1EX, S-3EX, etc.)
post #79 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

The Pioneer CD/SACD player (a stereo 2 channel only player at that) is available in the US already.

post #80 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Brian:

Ironic that you link to a Pio player announcement from a site editor who attributes SACD's improved sq to "a bunch of urban myths" and admits to "never ever [getting his] hands on an SACD."

I shared your comments with a friend of mine who tracks these things more closely than I do (I make a player purchase every few years and then only generally keep up with developments until I'm actively in the market to buy again). He had the following to say:

Quote:
People trip out on the OLED front panel and then we get posts like that.

I would pay no heed to any of the b.s. that comes from AVS. We will just have to wait and see. I have seen plenty of occurrences where something hit a retail site without any announcement.

Heck, just recently we had those 360 bundles for the holiday that showed up on Best Buy's site, were pulled, then officially announced.

http://kotaku.com/gaming/less-of-a-r...dle-304644.php

Same with Amazon and when they put up the third generation Tosh players before any announcement, were pulled down and then announced.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/08/02...n-october-1st/

To say "Additionally, every website links back to your link, which is a retailer" is frankly absurd; it's not strange at all.

Retailers are a great source of leaks. Anyone who says otherwise is frankly not paying attention or has their own agenda.
post #81 of 103
Thread Starter 

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.S
Ironic that you link to a Pio player announcement from a site editor who attributes SACD's improved sq to "a bunch of urban myths" and admits to "never ever [getting his] hands on an SACD.":

One has nothing to do with the other - I could care less about the editorial on the site. What I care about is the actual product announcement, model number, specs, so I can do my own research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.S
I shared your comments with a friend of mine who tracks these things more closely than I do (I make a player purchase every few years and then only generally keep up with developments until I'm actively in the market to buy again). He had the following to say

I read it - and all his examples? They're from big retailers (and those announcements generally come true in less than 4 weeks time when leaked). The LX90? It's coming from a single retailer, in the U.K., 6 months old now, and that's it. And it goes against your friends example, where a retailer 'had' to pull it down. This one is still up and was/is never getting pulled down.

Plus, as I pointed out, Japan is generally first in getting all the new goodies, and with CEATEC just wrapping up, the LX90 would have likely been introduced there if not at CEDIA. The next opportunity? CES - and I can probably photoshop a unit and throw out specs just as easily as the next guy, and at some point, 6 days, 6 months, 6 years, whenever a unit might be announced as I spec'd it out.

AVS is far from an authority, and frankly the content has diminished significantly over the past year and a half. But, many manufacturers reps participate openly, including someone from Pioneer, so I'm not too quick to write it off.

Anyway, in regards to the LX90, it's a myth - there's nothing concrete to back up any sort of unit coming with all those specs. Based on Pioneer's numbering system, it's 99% likely the next player will be an LX90 for overseas markets.

At the end of the day, Pioneer just released their newest BD player in the U.S.. the 95HD, so likely we won't see any new announcements until CES which means won't be on sale until Spring 2008.
post #82 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

One has nothing to do with the other

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Not only do I think it's so obvious that "editorial" stance influences 'news' coverage so much as to make it silly to even say so (and you apparently haven't been reading TDB lately), but I am less than interested in news reportage from someone whose editorial stance evinces that they don't know what the F they're talking about.

That same AV Land site has featured a link to an SC-LX90 receiver since at least May. Pioneer issued a press release for that unit on September 28, 2007. This may or may not be dispositive of anything regarding the player, but it does appear to set a precedent refuting your notion that the passage of more than ~four weeks between mythic online appearance and substantiated reality means the former is the work of a rogue Photoshopper.

We could continue to go back and forth with this referencing precedent point versus dismissing it as "myth" counterpoint. But the larger issue seems to me to be: since you apparently have made up your mind about the SACD format, why did you even bother not only starting yet another thread on this subject but phrasing the title you chose in the form of a question?
post #83 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Also, does all gear always get announced at trade shows?
post #84 of 103
Thread Starter 

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.S
Also, does all gear always get announced at trade shows?

Flagship products generally do - and this is one of them. LX90 was announced at CEATEC, a trade show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.S
But the larger issue seems to me to be: since you apparently have made up your mind about the SACD format, why did you even bother not only starting yet another thread on this subject but phrasing the title you chose in the form of a question?

No one is twisting your arm to respond to my posts.

This thread isn't about hardware - it's about software and the lack thereof in any reasonable capacity. There's plenty of hardware announcements still happening, but little software to back it up - hence the title of this thread. And no where did I post I was abandoning SACD. I said it seemed to be a dead format. Doesn't mean I'm going to liquidate my collection.
post #85 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

No one is twisting your arm to respond to my posts.


And no one twisted your arm to start a thread on a tired, flayed-to-the-marrow subject.

This thread isn't about hardware - it's about software and the lack thereof in any reasonable capacity. There's plenty of hardware announcements still happening, but little software to back it up - hence the title of this thread. And no where did I post I was abandoning SACD. I said it seemed to be a dead format. Doesn't mean I'm going to liquidate my collection.


This is very tenuous ground, Brian. I could just as easily argue that this area of the Forum is and, if not, should be about MUSIC, not formats. Also, it's very problematic when broadly discussing SACD (you didn't delineate software from hardware when you chose the title of the thread) to then in medias res attempt to delimit harware as not being part of the discussion. One could argue that the ongoing release of hardware, which you acknowledge, refutes the notion that the format is "dead": if you're not "liquidating your collection" AND new hardware is being released, then you've got new hardware choices on which to play said collection. Again, what then is the point in asking a rhetorical question that has been beaten to death in this Forum area?

That's the admittedly personal issue for me: just as I'm already tired of seeing FORMAT debate in the high definition area of the Forum, I'm tired of seeing FORMAT debate in the MUSIC area of the Forum. Every couple of months, someone starts a thread like this and the same issues are raised and argued over by usually the same people. This area of the Forum is littered with these threads. It's led to the defection of knowledgeable members like Lee Scoggins and Keith Hirsch to Steve Hoffman's site, where I think fewer people have the regressive notion that lack of "mainstream" release = format death. One such thread was started just earlier this week about "DVD-A?" by someone who obviously didn't bother to do a search before failing to resist that impulse to start a new thread about an old subject.

It would be different if you started a release-specific discussion (i.e., the Genesis SACDs), but you did not. Clearly your attitude about the format has not changed since the thread began, so what's the point of basically passive-aggressively asking people to preach to your own choir?

"Any reasonable capacity" of SACD releases is a judgment on your part. I think you ought to expect some parries and jousts if you come to an enthusiast forum to basically declare a format "dead" just because the latest albums by whatever mainstream rock outfits tickle your fancy aren't getting released on that format.

The format is NOT DEAD. Period.

I think it's time the Forum made the same restrictions in the Music area regarding high resolution audio as has been done in the high def area regarding Blu-ray and HD DVD: non-release-specific 'format competition,' or in this case "format death," discussion should be restricted to a limited number of threads.
post #86 of 103
Thread Starter 

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Whatever Paul - there was a good discussion amongst everyone in this thread *except* you where you deemed it necessary to become the threadcop deeming what should be/shouldn't be discussed along with your own personal monologue of how warped I and everyone else must be.

Once in a blue moon a thread like this pops up - they're not as frequent as you state. And if it irks you so much, why respond? Nevermind - I know why. This is my last post in regards to any of yours, so feel free to read your own words and get the last one in.
post #87 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

The "whatever" in response to substantive criticism doesn't aid the discussion either. And my criticisms have not been aimed at "everyone." What good discussion has occurred frankly hasn't been with regards to your assertions of SACD's death but rather other issues like DSD conversion (but that, too, has been discussed here many times before).

It's simply not true that I'm the only one who feels this way. I'm just one of the few who has spoken up instead of just leaving the Forum. I often e-mail with people who simply don't post here anymore because of OPs expressing sentiments such as yours that inevitably lead to arguments.

Blue moons must be frequent in your universe. Either that or you simply don't know how to use the search function.
post #88 of 103
post #89 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

I can say with certainty, I am going to continue to use SACD until my funeral. Of all of the shiny 5" formats I own, Blu-ray/HD DVD/DVD-V/DVD-A/SACD/CD, I am sure I play SACD the most in my home. I actually own more CD's and more DVD-V's than SACD's, but SACD is spinning somewhere in my fleet of players really often. I am planning on listening to "Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds" this Halloween.

Chris
post #90 of 103

Re: SACD: Is it time for the funeral?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard
I can say with certainty, I am going to continue to use SACD until my funeral.
Chris

Yup, me too.

Would I like more (non-classical) releases? Of course

But it will take me quite awhile just to collect the already releasesd titles on my wish list so it should keep me busy for a few years yet
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