Battlestar Galactica Season 4 - Page 54

You inadvertently bring up my biggest general disappointment with the 'last act' of the series (not necessarily just the last eps) and that is the show moving away from science fiction solutions to fantasy based ones.
It is true the show introduced fantasy mythology in the first season- but earlier on it was done in a such a way as to still allow room for doubt. And initially, the religious mythology was used by a very small closed circle of the elites- not because they believed it, but because it was socially productive (to maintain cohesion and a sense of purpose).
I fell in love with BSG when it was a science fiction show with strong characters and drama. I tolerated the increasing encroachment of fantasy elements because it still offered well done dramatic character content.

Yes, the ships were falling apart. But sending the BSG off on a valorous suicide mission prevents the other ships from making full use of her. Adama is denying the full exploitation of Galactica's resources so that he can indulge in a warriors exit. Since he expects the chances of him and the ship making it back are small, it played to me as a rescue mission second, and a warrior-wanting -to-go-down-with-his-boots-on exit first. It seemed at its core, a selfish, self serving move to me.

This is a criticism that falls into the 'execution' category. I can accept your rationale for the motivation, but I didn't see that motivation proven or tested through even one exchange or test.
To some people the notion of having Adama explicit state his motivation and take any screen time to debunk calling his motives into question might seem too pedantic- but I think when there is so much fantasy nonsense in the air to resolve plot points, having certifiable motives would help keep a big part of the show still grounded in reality. 

Getting back to the dispensation of the ships- To me, the logical thing would be to keep most of these ships in orbit as satellites until the process of harvesting the most necessary tech is accomplished. 

This is something about the new BSG that I finally realized and loved. With the first show, I never understood why it was so important to get to earth considering they had tech that was so advanced from ours. That would prevent the cylons from following them nor would we hacve been able to aid  their defense.
This version made me realize that they were searching for a lost colony that they expected to be as advanced if not more so. Most people I think expected the end to put them at some point in our earth past. I enjoy what that meant, which is an aspect I didn't anticipate- that finding our earth, even in it's pristine form, could be seen as a a huge comeuppance.

As to how they expected to live- yes it is clear they could not live by the pre-holocaust standards they had been used to- however them reaching a more primitive state I can't accept as a cold turkey decision. They still had plenty of functioning tech. Many of their first decisions upon beginning to settle and camp would have been debates over how to budget the remaining tech and fuel/energy sources they did have until they could assess and marshall  the native resources.
This is something I would expect an intelligent show to have realized.
Just one basic thing would be planet recon. mapping the flora and fauna. Identifying, classifying edible plants, etc.
And the more limited available tech means communities are going to be more important than ever, unless you want the few remaining survivors to be over-run and wiped out by the Thugs that were kept in line mostly by claustrophobic circumstances in the 'wagon train' days in space. Without some kind of government to keep order in these settlements, savagery would win out in short order.

The "To Do' list upon arriving on the planet  (to me) should have been
-budgeting the remaining technology and fuel for the most basic and important aspects of setting up habitable environments (think forts in the west)
-recon the planet (which would take months to do even a cursory job of)
-divide the population and 'seed' them across the habitable regions of the planet.
-set up mini governments for basic social functions.
on and on.

I didn't need or want to see this in detail, but I do think a general scientific approach should have been elicited with at least one line of dialogue.


It is interesting that introducing fantasy elements to fix some problems doesn't bother many of the same people who can only seem to accept a cold realistic solution to other problems.
Why not just have one character mention that one recon has found some elements that look like 'promising' as to a compatible energy source to what they are using now.  150,000 yrs ago allows for some room to include some elements that precious and rare now but may not always have been- especially if they were consumed by an alien race and the breakdown of that element yielded ones we do find in abundance now. Kara the angel flying back to the BSG in a shiny new viper is not hard to get around, but prehistorical fantasy elements are?

But yes- as aired, that is the point. The big struggle for all these people now is to successfully wean themselves of the tech they have been dependent upon all their lives. It is fantasy not sci-fi to expect them to be able to or even want to do this cold turkey. This weaning off process is going to be painful and a strain on any kind of social order. I wanted to see that realized and acknowledged. Lee Adama's desire is not un-motivated. In makes sense in that way- but it is irrational and I felt the show stumbled by not making that clear. There are still ways to do that without messing up the whole vibe of happier closure at the end. Instead I felt the show took the less intelligent, sentimental way out.

This part straddles the line between conception and execution. From the way the writers  did it, I'm not sure if they even understand how foolish the notion looks.

BTW- I think if the show had suggested leaving one or two ships in orbit (rather than sending all of it into the sun) that would have implied (or could have resulted in through an unforeseen occurrence ) a decaying orbit at some point. I think fans would have congratulated them for making the case for an upcoming planetary climate incident when that much mass makes an impact on earth.
The show could have suggested that not only were their circumstances vastly reduced on earth from their earlier lives, but that any small blossoms of advanced civilization were ultimately still doomed to be wiped out -again because of their technology.

I think that would have been more logical and smarter in keeping with their basic themes, than what they came up with.




Edited by Paul_Scott - 8/4/2009 at 07:56 pm GMT
Edited by Paul_Scott - 8/4/2009 at 08:04 pm GMT
Edited by Paul_Scott - 8/4/2009 at 08:06 pm GMT
Edited by Paul_Scott - 8/4/2009 at 08:10 pm GMT

The motivation for Lee's plan to "leave it all behind" was stated quite ellegantly in season 4's "Sine Qua Non."  You get the feeling that the fleet isn't truly dependent on the technology anymore, and rather than needing to be weaned off of it, the people are looking, indeed aching for a new beginning.

The show's main conceit--the rag-tag remnant of humanity--is so utterly incomprehendible, that I personally find it impossible to say what's truly "logical."  To have the entire species reduced to a number smaller than the city I grew up in, and then to have it dwindle even further, well, all bets are off.  All we as viewers have is the actions we have been shown, the emotions we have witnessed, and the inferences we can make from everything else.  To that end, given the entirety of the events, from the fall of the colonies, to the pursuit by the Cylons, New Caprica, the Algae planet, Earth, the mutiny, the Cylon civil war, and finally our blue planet, I think it's fair to say the people are tired. 

Consider what they have endured: starvation, fatigue, political unrest (almost ceaseless, at that), terrorism both within and without, suicides and suicide bombings, black market kingpins, abhorent working conditions, the facade of day-to-day life (it's like Zarek says, why does the gardener continue to go to work?), martial law, political coups, mutiny, religious conflict and uncertainty, et cetera.  All the while, driven only by the hope, fleeting as it is, that a new home could be just beyond the next jump, and then to have that hope seemingly dashed forever upon reaching Earth.  Further, consider that for most of the journey, everyone lived in a perpetual state of paranoia regarding the potential that that person next to them is a cylon sleeper.  Oh yeah, and to top it all off, everyone endures all of this despite losing virtually everyone who has every meant anything to them in their entire lives.

By the end of the series, you could see the anguish and fatigue in the fleet (human and Cylon alike); the exhaustion was palpable.  You could sense a very real desire to just end it all, as shown by Dualla's suicide.  Lee has another way, one which he has felt for a while (again, see Sine Qua Non).  The fact that everyone in the fleet *does* give up everything isn't a cop-out (or poor writing, or whatever term you wish to use), but rather a testimate to just how weary they all are, and the lengths to which they are willing to go to break the cycle that has plagued both species for so long--long enough for it to become a part of the religion.

In "The Hub," Baltar, too, talks about the desire (and need) for a clean slate.  In the end, taking everything from the entire series into account, I think for the fleet to have done anything *other* than give it all up would have been illogical.

There are a number of themes/devices that some people have issue with, and that's perfectly fine.  People are welcome to their own opinions, and certainly welcome to take in art and entertainment however they desire.  However, personally, I think the show needs to be viewed from a position often reserved only for literature.  The show relies heavily on imagery and traditional storytelling devices to convey its story.  To me, a close viewing of the show allows for a better appreciation.  I don't mean taking notes, watching the episodes over and over,  and endlessly searching the internet for facts about each scene.  Rather just close watching is all that's needed.

A small minority (not on this forum, for the most part) feel the spiritual side of the show was shoe-horned in, and have called the ending one huge deus ex machina.  Those people are wrong, in my opinion, just as wrong as those who say Moore and crew were 'making it up as they went along."  When someone says the ending (and I don't mean the final scenes, but rather the entire final arc of the Final Five, the CiC/Opera House, et cetera) was just whipped up at the last second, all that proves to me is that they either didn't fully comprehend the final half of the series, or they watched it out of the corner of their eye, while making supper or something :)

The decision can't be looked at in isolation. The show is about breaking the cycle of resettlement, redevelopment, holocaust that has plagued the humans the cylons for millenia. The humans personally survived one such holocaust and stared another one in the face midway through the final season.

In addition to making humanity impossible for the Cylons to trace, destroying all but the basic technology gave humanity the freshest start since Kobol (or possibly even before). With nothing to look back on, the colonials had reason to hope that the next cycle would turn out differently. The idea that "all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again" is crucial to understanding the show. As the final moments seem to attest, starting over even to the extent of mixing humanity's genes with the enemy (via Hera) was not enough to break humanity from the cycle.

I will grant that there are some shows where the religious element would not have fit, but this is not one of them. In addition to the active role it played throughout the course of the series, the show itself is a sort of religious fable. The colonial fleet could be Moses and the Jews fleeing Egypt for the promised land, or the Puritans crossing the Atlantic, or the followers of Joseph Smith heading West across the Frontier. For what is presented as essentially our origin story, a certain amount of mysticism seems appropriate to me.

This debate about scuttling the ships reminds me of this scene from The Hunt for Red October.

Stop it you guys.

I loved the last episode.

Did you even read any of these posts?

Yeah, I definitely see that as a logical choice to, if anything, go out in a noble cause on the side of making the good, right choice, consequences aside. And this time, luck and the guidance of Don't Call Me God was on their side.

 Sending just the Battlestar into the sun (initially...and on camera) would have accomplished both the need for the sentimental money shot visual of the BSG's exit, as well as implying that a definitive break in the status quo was being made here.
The idea of burning the ships to provide the crew with motivation is a valid enough idea (in that it makes sense that many of these characters would come to that conclusion). My problem isn't that it was enunciated, it was that there was no logical, believable nod given to the future conflicts that decision would produce.
The notion that this will end the cycle of war seems quite simpleminded when, deprived of the basic technology they lived with so far, vast numbers of people revolt and resort to full out, unchecked barbarism over the resources that are left.

To lay out the clean break was a noble decision. But I acutely felt the absence of a cynical, pragmatic voice at that moment (think of a McCoy-like Doc Cottle to Lee Adama's Spock) to undercut it- to give it some rationale context and take it out of shiny, happy people-ville where everyone is magically on the same page.

I guess not. Too many margaritas, I guess.

Well, that's perhaps the best explanation for anything! :)

I'm jumping in very late!

 

Over the past 3 years or so I have been watching Battlestar Galactica on DVD and Blu Ray as my only means to see it. (deliberately) I got into S1 and S2 and was hooked. It was an engaging reimaging. I saw Galactica TOS in 1978 and a few times in repeats, but never got it on DVD. 

 

So last year, I finally got back into Season 3 after stopping midway in S3. And I finally saw the conclusion of S4 last night. I've avoided reading all the Galactica threads. So it will be interesting to see your comments here. What a season full of shocks and surprises! As for the end, I liked it. I did see some comments earlier here today. I never thought Kara was a Cylon. I never thought for sure Roslin was one either. I did accidentally hear a spoiler 2 years ago that Tyrol was a Cylon and that was a disappointment to see. But it played out well and It wasn't such devastating news as I thought as he turned out to be one of the good guys.  

 

Baltar could have been one, but it was interesting to see his thread revealed.

 

As for supernatural or fantasy verse sci-fi regarding how it ended, well, I thought it was very sci-fi. The overlords or whatever beings the creatures that appears as Baltar and Six to me were like the Organians in Star Trek, or the aliens in 2001. Very powerful, very old and act as guides for other beings in their development. It was interesting to see their final comments of whether the cycle of violence and destruction was broken. 

 

I was really trying to figure out what Kara was after she returned. Was she a clone, or something else. I really like how they threaded the notes of the song as the FTL coordinates and how she figured it out. She did fulfill her role. She was like a Guardian Angel who was sent back to help guide them to the Earth, our Earth. Though I had hoped she and Lee would get together and make babies.

 

Also I was thinking, it's been a log time since I've seen TOS Galactica, but I remember an episode of very powerful beings in a white crystalline ship. They had Starbuck and Sheeba and Apollo. Apollo died and they brought him back. Felt like Moore was riffing on some of that and also building on the mythology from the original series. Only they didn't have Patrick Mcnee here as Count Iblis. Or perhaps that role was given to Leobin. And it wasn't clear to me fully the mythos, The Lords of Kobol and so on.

 

I'm still digesting it. I was not disappointed. And I'll have to find time to watch the extended cut of the final episodes.

Quote:

 

I only wish that the writers had figured out what Kara was. . .

Perhaps it wasn't important in the writer's minds of what Kara was. She was created with her memories and personality. A facsimile, who like Kara, was as in the dark as we were. The Gods had to have her complete her destiny. Sure, I would have liked to know what she was as well. And what the Balter and Six beings are who are on Earth at the end looking over Ron Moore's shoulder and reading the science magazine. Are they Angels?

 

The other odd thing, how did her Viper go from the place it exploded to Earth? I guess the Gods placed it there. Or a vortex in that area transported her body and Viper there. Too bad she died. But I guess she had to in order for Galactica to find Earth.

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They could be, although the somewhat-ominous final dialogue at the very end ("That, too, is in God's plan." "You know 'it' doesn't like that name...") leaves it wide open for them to be some type of advanced, evolved alien intelligences, according to various comments made by Moore since the finale aired.

Gods, shmods. In terms of a story it's nonsensical BS. :)

 

Having watched the entire series straight through on disc over a couple of months, I'm amazed at how random and pointless the 3rd and 4th seasons are compared to the brilliant first two.

 

In my opinion, as someone who both watched the show live, and again multiple times on DVD and BD, I think to say that the spirtual aspect of the show wasn't plainly telegraphed from the first few episodes is, quite simply, wrong.  A large portion of the *premise* of the show is founded on the ancient astronaut theory, and the spiritual tug-of-war in humanity.

 

If you had asked me, partway through the first season, to list a few of the central themes of the show, number one or two would have easily been "religion."  Heck, the majority of imagery in the first season was almost purely religious in nature.

 

Does this mean the "ending" itself was telegraphed from day one?  Definitely not.  Clearly Moore et al were making portions of it up as they went along (though, personally, I think it was a lot less than many of the so-called fans claim).  However, the influence of a spiritual belief, real or otherwise, was most definitely not one of those ad hoc decisions.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that a non-spiritual ending would have been suprising, and a tad (okay, more than a tad) disappointing.

Yes, the Ancient Astronaut theory. I had been thinking that too. You couldn't get more literal by the design of the Viper pilot helmets in the Original Series. 

 

I don't recall all the elements of the religious aspects but it was sure there in the Original Series and it sure was a strong element of this version. 

 

But in the end, while the characters had great faith in their religion, whom they worshiped, I think those "Gods" are an advanced race of beings. I'm happy to re-watch the series to catch all those things I didn't absorb. 

I don't mind a "spiritual aspect."  Really I don't. But a story still has to have a point. "It's because some god or god-like being said so" is NOT an excuse for lazy writing. Don't give me crap about made-up prophecies and don't ever use lines like "It is written." Don't make the entire story turn on random weirdness and then not explain it. Give me characters who do stuff to achieve their goals and succeed or fail on their own merits or shortcomings.

 

There's no reason they couldn't have tackled the Ancient Astronaut idea in ways that made sense.

 

Off the top of my head, some examples of good stories with spiritual aspects (in the sense we're using here, as opposed to, say, Seventh Heaven): The Rapture with Mimi Rogers, Frailty with Bill Paxton, or old-time religious epics like The Ten Commandments or Ben-Hur. There was also a really good episode of ST: Voyager that IIRC was called something like "Emanations."

 

And while I'm on a rant (ha ha!), don't keep reinventing your characters. Apollo was easily the worst in that regard, although he wasn't the only offender.  (See also: pretty much every Cylon.)  Consider the "arc:"

 

1. Fighter-Jock Apollo

2. Rebel against authoritarian dad Apollo

3. Fat Apollo

4. Married to irritating shrew Apollo

5. Paralegal Apollo

6. P*ssy Apollo

7. Follow-Starbuck-Into-Battle Apollo

8. Caveman Apollo

 

Say, combine #5 and #8 and you get Unfrozen (Pre-Frozen?) Caveman Lawyer!