Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

It's rather annoying. Especially when fullscreen editions are released for films whose audience would never think to purchase the movie in fullscreen in the first place.

If movies were released exclusively in widescreen, I don't think it would cause much of an uproar. Take a look at Disney's releases of the Pirates of the Caribbean films. They're arguable the most popular movies of the past five years and they haven't ever been available in pan & scan. Doesn't seem to have hurt sales, now has it?

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

Because they sell to people that don't care or know better.

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

Then they don't deserve to be DVD owners! WIDESCREEN ONLY!!!!

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

As long as they release the OAR version, I don't care if they release P&S discs. When there's a sudden proliferation of P&S only releases, I'll get angry but until then they can keep releasing anything they want because I'm only going to buy the OAR version. Fortunately, they'll never release P&S only versions because the studios want to sell the widescreen version too.

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

I wish i could own Colossus: The Forbin Project in widescreen. But Universal put out a P&S DVD even though they had a WS laser disc!
So, of course i do NOT own it.

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

Simple. Wal-Mart still needs them for the J6P market.

Even my dad still owns a 36" standard TV and likes his screen filled. Until it dies, he's not prepared to invest in a 16:9 unit.

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

What's worse is when studios (like Sony) DROP a widescreen transfer in favor of the full screen. "High School High", "Mixed Nuts" and "Last Action Hero" are a few examples. I've been going through hell and back trying to find the original DVD of "Mixed Nuts" which contained both versions. Not an easy task.

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

Paul, good thread. I've often wondered about this one. I had to go to an R4 PAL release to get a movie because it's only been released in the states as P&S. I also own a std width 36" TV but for movies, I only buy WS versions. Since I'm primarily a TV/DVD collector I haven't bought a 16:9 set yet but it's just a matter of time until I do. I don't know much about the 16:9 hardware so I need to catch up a little on it. I assume that, when watching P&S TV/DVD's on a 16:9 set, that the black bars will be present on the 2 sides of the screen, right? That won't bother me at all since that's what I see with my WS movie DVD's.

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

Was the capability for DVD players to pan and scan a widescreen movie "on the fly" ever actually used? That could have made everyone happy...

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

The thing I don't understand is, if the big movie channels had committed to showing movies in their OAR, 10 or even 5 years ago, we wouldn't be having this conversation today.

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

Yes, and the DVD specification allows this information to be encoded onto the disc. That's why your DVD player's set-up menu includes options for both "4:3 pan and scan" and "4:3 letterbox" in addition to "16:9."

For some reason, this feature simply never took off.

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

At another website this morning, I was reading a post by a man who had just bought his first HDTV, and he was complaining that even with this new TV (that he spent BIG BUCKS for), he was still seeing black bars when he watched '300,' and he wanted to know if the TV was broken or if the disc was defective.

Another person chimed in that there must be something wrong with the disc, just like there was something wrong with his DVD of KUNDUN because he still sees black bars on his HDTV when he plays that movie, too.

After all this time, folks still aren't aware there are different aspect ratios for films.

Thankfully, someone enlightened them and sent them to a Wikipedia link that explained widescreen aspect ratios.

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

This reminds me of a time not long ago - approaching a counter at a local CC, I overheard a customer talking to a salesman. As the salesman handed a DVD to this person, I could hear the question `This is not widescreen is it? I Hate those black bars!'

It was all I could do not to add some comment, but how rude would I be? Funny, I hate this person instantly

Even better - In this forum and the others, I see the Black Bar question pop up all the time - as in, what can I do about it?

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

Back in the Laserdisc era, there were these free booklets with lots of photos explaining all the major widescreen processes and ratios. It also showed how much pan and scan can chop off. I often used that to explain to friends what the deal was with the black bars.
That TCM short about letterboxing is also pretty darn educational.

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

Like about 1/2 the people in this thread you're confusing cause and effect.

Why are there still P&S DVDs in 2007?

Because there's a market for them! (Duh!)

Why didn't the big movie channels switch to OAR 5 or 10 years ago?

Because too many of their subscribers don't want OAR. Most of the time when they run something in OAR the movie channels, the cable companies and the satellite outfits get calls from people wanting to know what went wrong.

I'm sorry that those evil "Wal-Mart shoppers" and the great unwashed that the vastly more intelligent (and virtuous ) membership of the HTF mocks as "Joe & Jane 6-pack" still outnumber the video elite, but that's the reality. Personally, as long as 99% of films are at least released in both versions, I don't lose any sleep over somebody else being happy with a product I wouldn't want to own. Happens all the time with clothes, music and cars.

Regards,

Joe

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

Yes.

Didn't P.T. Barnum say something to the effect that no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American People?

No one ever said Democracy was perfect.

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

Joe, it has nothing to do with intelligence and I'm not sure why you think a preference for "films to be represented as complete as possible and with their full image, as intended by the original creators, intact" (as quoted in this forum's mission statement) is some kind of class warfare attack. I happen to agree with the above quoted statement, whereas at one time I wouldn't have thought twice about it. So naturally I feel its simply a matter of being informed.

I think its a good question to ask; why are the studios themselves the biggest obstacles to their properties being seen as they were meant to? As Ray H posits, what percentage of the market are they losing if they only release a film in proper aspect ratio? Maybe they are actually creating a market that doesn't really exist, like I believe they do with colorized editions. What cost is it really to a studio to go OAR exclusive as opposed to significantly compromising a piece of work (or dare I risk calling it, art) over and over?

As for why I care, when there are both versions available, it goes back to the HTF mission statement. If I agree with the statement, which I do, then I would obviously be against anything that is incompatible with it, such as pan and scan DVDs. Simple as that. I'm not tangibly hurt by their existence, its more the principle. New fullscreen releases continue to perpetuate the myth of getting more picture and distance us from having the "films be represented as complete as possible...".

The bottom line is the consumer has already noted, with overwhelming authority, its preference for improved quality in the home viewing presentation (DVD>VHS). Doesn't it stand to follow that the same consumers, with knowledge in hand, would prefer OAR? The size of the screen is changing, widescreen editions already outsell their fullscreen brothers, so the OP stands. Why?

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

Ive said before, and it is worth repeating again. I know people who are doctors that buy P&S DVDs to watch on their widescreen sets. they stretch a pan and scan image to fit! So smart people are not in the know too!

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

Meh...that's just silly.

The world will always have the PS crowd for years to come...I couldn't care less...I can get what I need (WS) and that's all that matters...lifes too short to still be worrying about this 1998 topic.

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

We just had a discussion in this week's Weekly RoundUp about why so many of the cheap deals each week at places like Circuit City and Best Buy involve ONLY the P&S versions of films which had two separate AR releases. The bottom line is stores are getting rid of excess inventory because 1.) retailers ordered too many of the P&S versions...or 2.) because noone is buying the MAR versions. It also seems that it is usually the P&S version of a two-release title which ends up in Wal-Mart's dump bins.

It sure would be interesting to know which reason is correct.

For those who were posting early-on in this thread...Widescreen Advocate is a great resource to use to help educate people on "why widescreen." I actually have one of WA's downloads printed up and posted on the door of my office at work. I can't tell you how many people I have converted after giving the simple explanation about OAR.

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

But re-read the topic heading. I think it is a valid topic. I am surprised P&S still exists in '07. Fewer and fewer new releases are getting separate AR releases. It seems like MAR'd versions are ending up in overstock and dump bins.

The question, I suspect, could only be answered by corporate suits with access to sales figures. There must be a reason that defies the various trends away from P&S.

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

I have encountered countless people in retail stores' DVD sections over the years, and my conclusion is that these otherwise smart people have a lack of intelectual curiosity regarding this issue. They really have no awareness of the world around them. When asked what shape the screen is when they visit a movie theater, their eyes glaze over. They have stared at them for years, but have no idea what the shape is. When I say rectangular, while a standard analog TV screen is almost square, the eye glaze thickens. I think anything that glows on a TV screen is the same to them, just background noise, whether it is a low-brow sitcom or an Oscar-winning film. It doesn't matter to them...

I take a dollar bill from my wallet and do the folding trick to demonstrate how panning and scanning takes the rectangular image and removes part of it, with a square portion remaining. Just when I think I'm making progress, I appeal to their wallet. I ask if they asked me to make change for a dollar bill and I only handed them 57 cents back, would they feel cheated. Yes. If they purchased what they thought was a two-hour movie and the disc stopped playing back after an hour, would they be mad that they were not able to see the entire movie. Yes. So... why would you want to see less than the entire film as it was shown in the theater?

I hate those black bars....


Does no one remember geometry from high school? Evidently not...

I could rant on, but it just makes me sad.

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

Uh, they DIDN'T do separate pan & scan versions on DVD in 1997 and 1998- most discs had BOTH versions on the same disc if they could fit each one on a single-layer side or both on a dual-layer side (this was one of the most hyped features of the DVD format, that you'd be able to choose the format on EVERY movie), some movies just had one or the other, but by the end of 1999 most new releases were on dual-layer discs with ONLY the widescreen transfer, especially longer movies or ones that had a lot of bonus material. Wal-Mart then insisted that more pan & scan versions be available, as their uneducated customers were complaining about 'dem black bars'.

The first movie to have a separate pan & scan release was "Patch Adams", that had a widescreen edition with extras for $34.99 and a pan & scan edition with no extras for $29.99 (which makes sense, since people who would choose pan & scan wouldn't care about extras anyways). A few months later they put out "The Mummy" in separate editions, this time both with extras at the same price. This didn't become commonplace for most new releases until around 2002 however. The BIGGEST mistake they made with these though was to label the pan & scan discs as "Full Screen", which of course makes no sense but undoubtedly further confuses and misleads the people who don't understand. They should have clearly labeled them as "Pan & scan" or "Formatted to fit 4x3 screens".

Assuming pan & scan transfers were going to be available at all, I thought it was best that they be included on the same disc with the widescreen versions so that there wouldn't be any confusion over which version to buy, and those who preferred pan & scan could have it and still be able to watch the correct version once they came around. The market then wouldn't be flooded with hundreds of unsold "fullscreen" DVDs either. It was hoped that 2-sided dual layer discs (DVD-18s) would be more commonplace by now, but sadly it looks like they've been given a bad name with all the defective ones that were manufactured in Mexico, mostly of Universal titles, and I've never understood why 2-sided discs can't have better printing on them (most current 2-sided discs have NOTHING printed on side 2, which is just insane!!)

Another solution though is to have the player crop the movie, which can sort of be done now. Most new players have a zoom function, and I have a Pioneer with modified firmware that, among other things, will crop EVERY anamorphic disc to 4x3, including all the ones that aren't flagged for auto pan-and-scan. Of course 2.35 movies are only partially cropped, but the user can then use the zoom control if they so desire. I've seen some players advertised with a "letter-box eliminator" which I assume also does this. Many widescreen TVs offer options for cropping as well, so hopefully nobody will find it necessary to do a "full screen" 16x9 pan & scan disc of a 2.35 movie, or a vertically cropped transfer of a 4x3 'academy' ratio movie, though I've heard they already do this on cable.

I've been debating the merits of letterboxing or whatever you want to call it since the late 1980s, and am amazed that there are still people who would rather have pan & scan. I wish that VHS had stayed in production for them, or at least have more DVD players that can crop the movie automatically without the need for a separate transfer, ESPECIALLY on a separate disc!

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

Steven, i have done the same thing with the same results. I have converted a few, but most dont care. My kids dont even care. My son has 2 of The Lord of the Rings in widescreen and one in fullscreen. Course i have my own copies, in widescreen. I dont watch TV just to kill time. Its not even on unless we have something we want to watch, and we dont watch much network or commercial TV (but thats another subject). I watch to be entertained, thrilled, challenged, and of course to see a fantasy life i wouldnt, or couldnt live. I dont like to watch just to be a zombie, thats why i have the internet!
So, to answer Alf's post i dont worry about it. I will sleep well tonight. But i get to see more than the pan and scan people get to!

Re: Why do studios release pan and scan DVDs in 2007?

It's probably worth noting that not all full frame release of films 40 or 50 years or older (1950-present) are pan and scan. Many of these film were shot with an open matte and there would be no pan or scanning on them. One stupid release that is bugging me is McKenna's Gold. A real widescreen epic that first came out with full frame on one side and widescreen on the other then the studio released all future discs full frame only. Really annoying. I rented it out on Netflix twice and got nothing but full frame. If they want to release full frame discs do it on a title like "The Kids are Alright". That film is made up of almost nothing but tv footage. I can't imagine anyone dumb enough to want to see that film letterboxed.