*** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread *See Post 957, p. 32* - Page 4

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

That's an odd way to look at it.

The fact is, each of those HD DVDs in the top five outsold every BD on the market save two. We can debate whether total HDM sales are insignificant or not, but to try to write off titles in the top 10 as insignificant in the context of the current HDM market is just bizarre.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

odd way ? if we have neutral title and BD version of that tiles is outlselling HD-DVD version of same title almost 2:1, that's the odd way for comparing formats ?

how else you want to compare those titles ? neutral titles is one of the possible way to see wich is doing better on same title....

few examples...

original posted by darinp2 on other forums :

7/24: The Host 2.36:1
7/31: 300 1.91:1
7/31: Shooter 1.71:1
7/31: Blue Planet 2.03:1

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Actually apart from other reasons Disney has chosen to go BD only, one of the reasons is that they know that based on these ratios, the -other- format won't survive forever. Those 20k sales will end up happening when HD-DVD only people buy their first BD player.

Further, I wonder how many HD-DVD proponents also own a BD player as compared to BD proponents (or as I call us, single format proponents) owning an HD-DVD deck.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

As there will likely be no end to the dual format situation, the revenue will just be lost by exclusives.
Since there are no numbers posted on the cross-over, and no way of telling, we will never know. But with more BD players on the market, it is likely more BD proponents own HD players then the other way around.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Yes it could have, and added 50% to the profit that Sony had on the title.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

No, the odd way of looking at it is to focus only on the fact that the BD version of the title outsold the HD version and discount the fact that the HD version, in the case of 300, outsold everything else on the market besides its own BD version.

When Disney releases a big title that claims the top spot on the list, they could also take the #2 spot.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

I'm not sure about "proponents," but I'll tell you one thing for sure: The number of HD DVD owners who also own a BD player is exactly the same as the number of BD owners who also own an HD DVD player. And if you own both, you're a proponent of both in the way that matters most - with your wallet.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

I would also think so.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

How do you guys calculate that? The vast majority of BD players are PS3s. The vast majority of owners of those units would see no reasom to own another format. So how can a conclusion be drawn that more BD owners own HD DVD players as well. The majority of duel format owners are probably people who own standalones. Since HD DVD leads in that department it stands to reason that more people who bought an HD DVD player first also went out and bought a BD player; therefore, it is more likely that the number HD DVD owners who bought a BD player outstrips the number of BD owners who went out and bought an HD DVD player after their initial BD purchase. Not that it really matters, since a person who goes neutral is mow another subset of the HD market. As Mr. Matthews pointed out the number of people who owm both formats is exactly equal, so the only question that arises is in which order the purchases came. I would posit that most dual format owners owned an HD DVD player first.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

But not if they have to create a dual format release. That eats into the profit margin. Thus creating a situation with single format support only, and then a single hi def media format allows the studios to reach all consumers with a single cost release.

Did we need 2 formats with DVD for some reason?

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Short-term, yes. But Disney and Sony are taking a long-term view. And they know that as soon as this format war is over, and the consumer is presented with a clear and uncontested defacto HD format, they'll sell many more copies on that format (backed by consumer confidence) than they would right now on BD and HD DVD combined.

Hence the exclusive push for BD: long-term profits by pushing the market to a single format.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

But if all studios were to go neutral, the consumer would be able to choose between the two formats with the same confidence, knowing that neither was going anywhere and would be supported by everyone.

You say they're thinking long term as if that's the only way to do it. As John said just above you: A single format is in the studios' best interest (and only marginally so -- when we're talking about mass adoption of one or the other, the relative cost of a second authoring drops to next to nothing at those volumes), not the consumer's. That distinction seems to get lost quite a bit in these discussions.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Norman,

even if the movie studios wanted to provide two formats, the REATAILERS would never support that structure long term.

Do you want to see HD disc media fill the store shelves at Best Buy one day like you see DVDs do now?

One format. That's your only choice.

And BTW, two formats made available, even by all studios, hardly eases consumer fears of one of those formats becoming obsolete.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Not at all.

If both formats were adopted and supported, they would be so at proportions that would eventually settle into a pretty predictable pattern. Retailers would only have to stock the two formats in those proportions, which would sum to a whole -- 1 -- that would equal current DVD stocking levels.

Right now, with the uncertainty, shelf space is a concern. But long term, the shelf space argument is a red herring.

Yet one more concern that would be addressed equally as well by across-the-board studio neutrality as it would by a single format.

I don't follow you here. We're told over and over, ad nauseam, that it's the uncertainty keeping people away and that studio support is what will decide the war. Now the certainty that all studios have decided to support both formats, thereby giving both unsurpassed studio support, wouldn't resolve the issue?

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

No, it wouldn't resolve the issue. It would just prolong it a little more.


You're clearly not a major retailer...

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Not sure how this figures. All PS3's are BD players, and many were purchased, if posting on this forum holds out, as BD players, not game consoles. Add those to the stand alones and the numbers are probably higher than HD.

Just by the shear number of BD owners, I would doubt it.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

What benefit do you derive from having HD-DVD vs. BD that you didn't get out of DVD's single format?

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Just saying things doesn't make them true. Do you have a reason for that opinion? Why is a market for two fully supported HD-delivery systems untenable? You've given no reasons other than just a plain "because I said so" as of yet.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Minimal cost but absolutely of loss of profits.

Probably not. Your question is just rhetorical as we do have two formats. As the number of players continues to grow, the likelihood of a single format becomes less likely. And soon the studios will begin to take notice of their losses. I expect that if BD can not deliver a fatal blow (not very likely) by the holiday season, the exclusives will start falling apart on both sides.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

How quickly did Sony improve upon their universally reviled The Fifth Element transfer? And with an exchange program for early purchasers to boot.

What DVD launch title did that happen with again?

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

I spent over two years explaining it in a thread that was just recently closed. I should hope we don't have to reiterate every obvious debate and argument/justification all over again. None of these well-covered points are a mystery to anyone.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Are you?

Vincent

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

This won´t happen. Some studios might go "neutral", but not all of them. We can paint a pretty picture where every major studio is neutral and the customer then decides the ultimate outcome of the "format war", but it´s too late for that. Blu-ray camp basically only needs Universal now, HD DVD needs Fox, Disney/Buena Vista, Sony and Lions Gate. Everyone can do the math here. Sure, Fox is sleeping at the moment, but still.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

With less than 2% of the marrket, It's NEVER too late.

I don't care which side has what, until consumers jump onboard in a really big way, then anything is still possible.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Honestly, what points you think you've demonstrated and what has actually come across are clearly two very different things.

Come on, give me the highlights, bullet fashion, one sentence a piece. Why is a market for two fully supported HD delivery systems "obviously" untenable. Not inconvenient (for you), not unideal (for you) -- untenable.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Norman,

how long have you been at HTF? Are you suggesting that you never read the infamouns "The format war is nearly over" thread that was a zillion pages long?

Are you suggesting that the points such as how the average consumer still fears getting burned with a format war like they did with Beta/VHS are concepts you've never heard discussed before?

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

I'm already starting to worry about HD-DVD's viability past this holiday season, and I was a big proponent of HD-DVD in the beginning. With Disney, rumors of Fox coming back, and Close Encounters, I'd say that unless HD-DVD pulls a miracle, I don't see anything saving it. Spielberg already nixed his Universal films on HD-DVD so you can probably forget about anything like E.T. or Jurassic Park.

I just don't see anything from the HD-DVD side that says "here's why we can survive".

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

I'm suggesting that two fully supported formats are not the same thing as a format war. I'm suggesting that two separate formats could each carve out a viable market for themselves. Demonstrating that consumers don't want to get burned in a format war and demonstrating that two formats cannot coexist are two very different things. Your most recent response shows me you're not paying this distinction much mind.

And please, if you're going to keep non-responding responding, just stop responding. Either reply to the point or don't reply at all. But please stop replying only to say if I were more informaed I'd already know the answer.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Norman,

it seems we're both "non-responding" to each other. We are most certainly hearing each other, but we still disagree with our basic premise.


Sure, two viable formats is "different" than a format war.

That's not what we have with HD DVD and BD. We have a format war.

Consumers typically do not tolerate more than one "format" that provides the same function when it comes to entertainment media. They weren't happy with VHS and Beta, for instance... and both were *viable* home-video technologies.

They aren't happy with SACD and DVD-A... and both are technically-viable high-resolution media, though politically only certain lables support each format.

The computing industry is one of the rare exceptions where two incompatible formats that do "the same thing" have managed to exist. And that's primarily because Apple has managed to do things that MS hasn't... or has managed to do them first and to do them better, so they've developed a loyal following. And even today in order to survive, Apple has done away with their proprietary chipsets and OS and now gone PC-compatible so PC software works seamlessly on Mac platforms. Guess what... now it's not a different "format" at all... just a different *brand*, and "two brands" is not the same as two formats.

In any case, Toshiba backing HD DVD and all the other entertainment-companies backing BD does not create a viable dual-format scenario. And even if there were a viable dual-format scenario from an industry-support side, consumers would NEVER tolerate it. The moment someone would get home with a movie-rental of the wrong disc type that would be the end of that.

I agree that two viable formats are different than a format "war" perse, but I disagree that we have a situation where we have two equally viable formats in place, so the discussion to that end is moot given the reality of the industry and the history of consumer perspective in entertainment media. If I didn't state these things explicitly earlier, again, it's because these points have been covered hundreds of times over on this board already so I assumed it was unnecessary.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

We are already seeing this with some consumers attempting to playback HD media on SD players. How many times have you been asked at a local retailer if you have a Bd player? I know that you are not suggesting that both HD formats be abandoned because some consumers are already having problems with incompatible media. So at what scale does it become an issue?

Based on my own opinion regarding the niche status of both HD formats I doubt that consumer outcry (over media issues) is going to have a large impact anytime soon.

- Walter.