*** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread *See Post 957, p. 32* - Page 18

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

But if Sony was hoping for mass market success with these technologies (with SACD in particular, Sony was clearly hoping it would displace CD), then they've clearly been failures.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

That's what I was thinking. In a business sense, it's a failure when it fails to accomplish what the company sets out to accomplish. In that regard, SACD has been a huge failure. The only saving grace is that they didn't sink in as much money into that format as they have other failed formats.

Sony intends Blu-Ray to compete with DVD, and you can bet they never intended it to be only a niche market. If Blu-Ray fails to reach mass market, then it should also be considered a failure - moreso than SACD since they've invested MUCH more money/resources into it and it's also cost them a significant share of the next-gen console market.

HD-DVD would be in the same boat, execpt Toshiba didn't sacrifice any of their other markets by pushing HD-DVD - so it's not nearly as painful.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

What I find kind of funny is the bluray people lambast Toshiba for selling their hd-dvd players for $99. Yet bluray is giving away movies. Again it is all about manipulating the numbers. It seems to me a 2 for 1 sale is one sale not two.
Yet they are probably counted as two sales.

As far as the youtube ads, I don't necesarily think they are very effective. How many people go to youtube to watch commercials? I can really imagine people typing bluray into the search.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Forget $99, whoever wants to hold the crown as successor to DVD better be prepared for $49 players, and soon. The HDTV market isn't going away, and people will want something to play on it. Whoever reaches the bottom first is going to win the prize.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Just because the Walkman and 8mm are no longer around does not in any way make them failed formats. They were wildly popular for their day, and lasted many, many years. To try and call the Walkman a failed format after 20+ years of success just because the iPod has now replaced it is asinine. There would be no iPods without the Walkman!

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

$49?! Does anyone remember the days when $199 was the magic number? I think $99 is a steal honestly. They need to keep some sort of premium over DVD. Sheesh!

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

In a time when Ipods & the likes rule, when the vast majority of people seem to be more than happy with MP3 & WMA it would really be a huge miscalculation on anyone's part to have thought, that SACD or for that matter any other format could replace CD simply because it offered higher quality of sound. It's quantity not quality that most people care about. Personally I think even the ruling CD might find it hard to survive for too much longer, well maybe only as cheap and mobile data storage for MP3 & WMA. Even on a forum like this one, where one would assume that the vast majority of members would care about quality first over price, the quest now seems to be for 'good enough'. I personally was shocked to see how many members of this forum have expressed that there are no real benefits to the higher quality of sound on SACD and that CD is good enough. Here in India you actually have music companies now releasing MP3 CDs simultaneously with the regular CD. The logic being, why lose that market to the pirates. SACD was always destined for a niche and actually it may finally replace CD since that market too seems to be headed for becoming a niche anyhow.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

The fact is that Toshiba has also being giving away a substantial number of free discs in addition to $99 players. Actually if memory serves me right, then Toshiba was the first to include a copy of 'King Kong' with their HD-DVD players. Also if my memory serves me right, HD-DVD was the first to offer the 5 free discs with all HD-DVD players. In case I am wrong, please feel free to correct me.

I too seriously doubt the reach and thus effectiveness of such a campaign, if it is limited to the internet that is.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

So were the 8-track and the film projector, the latter of which will be in use on a professional level for several years to come, naysayers notwithstanding. In fact, the only thing in that commercial that is truly a "failed format" is the Beta VCR. LaserDisc lasted for 20 years as well. It makes for a cute ad, but if it were a true documentation of failed formats, you'd see a helluva lot more Sony products in there.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

If you are looking to create the next standard, DVD is over. You need to be able to manufacture players for less than $20 (so retail can be under $50). If your design and technology does not allow for this, your format is doomed.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Beta VCR may have been a failed format at the consumer level, but believe me Beta as a professional format was quite a success and was used at various professional levels for a long time before being subplanted by Digital. But you are right to some exent that the 'Beta tape player' is the only product that could be perceived as a consumer level failure from amongst those shown in the commercial.


I personally think that the commercial is focusing on the obsolence factor of the products rather than their failure. That is why they hove chosen to show products that were relatively successfull but are now obsolete and thus making the analogy with HD-DVD clearer in the minds of the viewer. If it was failed formats that they wanted to refer to, there are quite a few outright duds that they could have used. But I think it was important to use products that have had atleast some relative success, before being made obsolete by a newer product. Which is what Blu-Ray wants to highlight thru the commercial. In fact the tag line at the end "Blu-Ray Disc: The Future is Blu.", fits in perfectly with that theme.

Basically what the commercial tries to communicate is, HD-DVD was here but is already gone, since the future is Blu-Ray.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

But the point is that Sony wanted, pushed, HOPED that things would be otherwise. That strategy, plan, intention turned out to be a failure. And its failure is not just a matter of the masses thinking MP3 is good enough, either. The merits of SACD were hotly debated in the audio high end newsgroup before the Ipod.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

SACD, coming to market circa 2001, preceded the iPod craze.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Laserdisc was around for a lot longer than 12 years. The red-book based digital variant alone was around for 15 years and the original purely analogue version first appeared on the market nearly a decade before then.


Batacam, Betacam SP and Digital Betacam were successful in the professional market, but lumping them together with the consumer Betamax is inaccurate: Betacam appeared on the market seven years later, included much better chroma resolution (it was a Y/C format), used twice as many heads and ran at a much faster tape speed. Later variants were even further removed from Betamax, including digital HDTV recording using MPEG4 at up to 880Mbps and capable of supporting 12 channels of 24-bit audio.

Adam

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

You seriously did not expect SACD to replace the long standing success of CD in just a couple of years did you. I am sure Sony did not either. Also keep in mind there was another format, DVD-Audio, to make things complicated and while DVD-Audio was an utter failure, it hung around long enough for the iPods to arrive and thus never giving SACD a real chance at mainstream adoption. Today's reality is that all disc based audio formats are heading for a niche status while the likes of iPod with downloaded compressed to death formats become mainstream. It is this business model for HD video that Microsoft would like to see while HD discs fail.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

The point was that Sony wanted to replace CD with SACD regardless of the timeframe. It didn't and is considered a failure. The lack of Sony titles released on the format in the last few years shows that even Sony doesn't think much of it even as a niche market. Do they still make SACD players?

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Yes, I did (although not necessarily in a "couple of years."). And so did Sony (although all those single layer stereo SACDs of non-DSD recordings were an odd way to implement what I understand of their market intentions). I'd ask what makes you so "sure" of a multinational corporation's intentions, but I know there isn't a satisfying answer to that issue. It's just more conjecture on your part.


I'm acutely aware of DVD-A thanks. I have two players and dozens of discs. And I disagree with the notion that the competition between those formats is responsible for either not gaining more lasting mainstream traction.

These issues have been discussed in the Music area for years, by people at least as interested in actually enjoying multichannel/high resolution music than posting their opinions online as though they are the Gospel.

It's easy to sit in judgment with six years hindsight.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

The Betamax VCR lasted as a viable format for about 25 years. I wouldn't exactly call that a failed product.

Doug

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Betamax (the consumer format) and Betacam (the professional format) are not the same product. The share the same plastic shell, but that is all. They are not compatible with each other.

Doug

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Betacam was also a full 480 resolution NTSC format, where Betamax had just slightly higher resolution than VHS around 240 lines of resolution.

Doug

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

I know both sides have been giving away free software with the player but I have seen a lot more blu-ray disc sales than I have seen of hd-dvd. Apparently blu-ray wants to keep the lead in so-called disc sales figures even if they have to give it away. When hd-dvd has a big event, such as a hd-dvd only exclusive or a hd-dvd player sale, you can bet blu-ray will have a sale.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Doug I agree with your conclusion (and Adam's), but with disagree a bit with the way it was stated. To say "that is all" negates the fact that the formats came from the same foundation. Where they significantly different? Of course and many improvements where made for Betacam SP (the additional formats like DigiBeta are so far removed). To me I think it is similar to how XDCam and XDCam HD are based on the same technology that is the consumer Blu-ray format. It is the same disc and the same laser technology.

BTW, don't write the Betacam eulogy yet. It is still used as the primary ad ingest format by quite a few TV stations (including stations in top 50 markets). Obviously digital is king and with the 2009 deadline approaching you'd think it would go away completely, but I can see stations still using Beta and converting it. A friend told me a funny story about ESPN the other day. They needed to send them a spot and they had no easy way to do a digital file transfer. They actually requested Betacam. Something his shop did not have. They are probably going to buy one of our old decks because they run into the need to use Betacam a lot.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Oh yeah Betacam is not dead by a long shot. However Betacam SP even though it uses the same shell as Betamax, is not the same format. You can't play a betacam tape in a betamax machine, or the other way around. So it's not really true to say that betamax is still around in a professional format. It's really not the same thing.

Doug

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

One thing I have noticed when I go to my local retailer is what appears to be an unfair advantage in software titles. Maybe it's just me but when I am standing there infront of both HD displays I see alot more top notch titles on Blu-ray than I do HD-DVD. I currently own both formats and I am pleased with both. I honestly feel Blu-ray is the better format over all but as far as picture vs picture goes. They are basically the same thing and as long as both formats use the same codex, there is no difference in picture quality.

Another thing I see is reguarding upcoming HD releases. There look to be alot more top notch exclusive titles coming out on Blu-ray compaired to HD-DVD. Even though Toshiba sold alot of players durring black friday, there are still not enough HD-DVD titles coming out to compete with Blu-ray IMHO. And while I own both players and I am not limited to titles from one side in my movie collection. And while I am happy with the picture quality and sound quality from both sides. I am so ready for the format war to be over, I am so sick of this war dragging on. Just based on titles being released here in the next 3 months. I figured that I will be purchasing at least 90% of my titles on Blu-ray. HD-DVD is a good format but every time I go to my local retailer to buy a movie I am not seeing very many HD-DVD only titles that I really want. I keep finding titles on Blu-ray that I want, and I can only guess that others are most likely exsperiencing the same thing. Consumers may of purchased alot of $98 players but if there are not alot of new HD-DVD titles coming out. How long will it be before those customers abandon HD-DVD and defect to Blu-ray, especially if consumers start seeing $150 Blu-ray players? I just want to be able to walk into my local retailer and not have to choose between if my money goes to an HD-DVD studio or a Blu-ray studio. I also feel that the average consumer may be more likely to buy an HD player if the format war was over. I work in retail and many of the people I talk to are staying away because they do not want to spend money on a format that may not be around very long. Then they would have to go out and purchase another player just because the where unfortunant enough to back the loosing format.

IMHO both formats are equal in picture quality, and they are equal in audio quality. HD-DVD currently offers cheaper players but has less exclusive softare compaired to Blu-ray. Blu-ray has more storage space for more HD content on one disc and can handle higher data rates that HD-DVD. I realize that this is not new news, but it was assumed that the consumer would choose what format would win and that this format war would not drag on for a long period of time. IMHO the consumer is not choosing and maybe its time for the studios and hardware manufacturers to choose one and help bring this format war to an end. It was helpfull in the begining as it helped drive down hardware prices and maybe even kept down the price of the HD content. But enough is enough allready, I just do not want to see this war go well beyond December 2009. I see no reason why this war can not be settled by the end of next year.

One question I do have for who ever can answer it. As far as data transfer rate goes, does the HD-DVD format barely perform good enough to handle the data rate for a 1080p picture and lossless audio? Or does it exceed what is needed for HD picture and lossless sound? And am I just focusing to much on Blu-rays superiority in specifications? I do how ever feel that Blu-rays 50 gig storage capacity is a very good thing. And HD-DVD would have been better off with more storage capacity.

One thing is for certain that both Blu-ray and HD-DVD have gotten me excited about home theater all over again. There are titles that I did not care about owning on DVD but now I want them in high definition because of the high quality video and audio. HD has also got me wanting to update my system alot more than DVD ever did. And since HD has come out I have never invested so much money on software and hardware in the entire time I have been into audio/video.

Titles I can not wait to own in HD:
Eyes Wide Shut
2001
HD Window Hawaii
Ratatouille
The Aviator
IMAX: Australia
IMAX: Alaska - Spirit Of The Wind
Close Encounters Of The Third Kind
Die Hard Quadrilogy
Bad Santa
The Omega Man
Pirates Of The Caribbean 3:At Worlds End
Mr & Mrs Smith
Independence Day
Cast Away
The Legend Of Zorro
Led Zeppelin: Song Remains The Same
Harry Potter 1-5
Terminator 3
Simpons Movie
Blade Runner
Rush Hour 3
War
Resident Evil Trilogy
The Rock
Man On Fire
Wall Street
Me, Myself & Irene
Crimson Tide
Twister
Princess Bride
Master And Commander: Far Side Of The World
Glory
Amityville Horror
White Noise
Bourne Ultimatum
Battlestar Galactica
Face Off

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

I personally kinda think that HD-DVD will have the edge as far as exclusive releases in early 2008.


Assuming Warner stays neautral.


HD-DVD has Bee Movie, American Gangster, Zodiac, Beowulf, Cloverfield. I think the new Cloverfield trailer was sweet. I was sold 1 minute in, and then it was actually a little longer than it needed to be.


I think the playing field will be much more even next year.


And we still dont' know any farther than january when we're talking library titles. I'm really curious how far the studios are willing to go as far as those. We all know they want better penetration, but the releases and penetration go hand in hand of course.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

You know thats funny because I stand there in front of the blu-ray rack and frankly I can't find 2 titles that I want so that I can take advantage of the BOGO sale.

Doug

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

It will also be getting Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, Star Trek XI, Kung Fu Panda, Hellboy 2, The Mummy 3, The Kingdom, Sweeney Todd and Madagascar 2. There's a pretty good slate of exclusive titles for HD DVD next year.

Adam

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Adam,

I think Dave may've been talking more along the line of catalog titles. I do think BD spanked HD-DVD as far as must have catalog titles this 4th quarter. Universal has only announced three titles for January, none of which will inspire anyone to rush out and buy an HD-DVD player. Paramount has NOTHING for December and only one title slated so far for Jan (Zodiac - a title that was pushed back at that). I realize that they are waiting for larger hardware penetration, but a balance must be struck here. They also need to publish some must have titles from time to time. A good friend of mine wanted to make me a wager that we'd probably see "Cool as Ice" from Universal sometime in 2008 - I didn't take him up on the bet, because frankly, they're really not that far off with Mobsters.

Re: New Advertising Campaign from Blu-ray against HD DVD

Lol. Gotta love some of your comments.. Yeah, PS3 owners "don´t know what Blu-ray is", sure..