*** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread *See Post 957, p. 32* - Page 8

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I didn't say they were good....I said they were HD.

But your point about size is really the thing that will probably keep HD as a niche. Most people don't want a TV even as big as 40inches in their living room, even if it is a flat panel they can hang on the wall. And if its not large enough to tell the difference between an SDTV then why buy it.

On the other hand looking at the electronics department at Wal-mart its pretty clear that SDTVs are being fazed out and HD will be all anyone will be able to buy anyway.

Doug

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wasn't challenging your comment... just expanding on it!

I can't remember the thread, but someone in another thread kept saying that he saw no real improvement with HD over DVD. The conversation went on and on until finally I asked him what size his HDTV was and how far he sat away from it. Turns out he sits about 3-screen widths back. I would be surprized if he *did* see an improvement with HD from that distance. ;-)

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Well to be honest I think anything under about 40 inches and your not going to see much of an improvement except maybe for sports broadcasts.

Doug

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And that's because we typically watch our TV from at least 8 feet away no matter how small the TV set is.

If you sat 15 inches away from a 15" HDTV screen (like your PC monitor), you'd see the same improvement over SD with and HD signal as you would from the 50" screen you watch from 8 feet away on the sofa.

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Can you please provide some link etc to back this up? You may be right and all that, but I thought that Elite has doesn´t have HDMI 1.3 (and to this day I thought that the "regular/normal/vanilla/etc" Xbox 360 has only component, no HDMI at all..).

With HDMI, Xbox 360 might be a decent HD-player, if you get pass the LOUD noise and "three red lights of death". But for gaming, it´s very nice console.

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HDMI on the professional started shipping (quitely) from MS earlier this month. There has been no major announcement as MS is trying to sellout the earlier non-HDMI units first.

BetaNews
engadget
This links confirms HDMI on all models, including the Core system.
Bit-Tech
The Inquirer

As far as a link for the rev of HDMI, I will try to find it when I get a bit of time and will post it if and when I do.

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Are you aware of the concept of electronics retail?



I guess I enjoyed my xbox for almost 2 full years. I wouldn't call that getting "screwed."

Besides, at this point they are trying to sway people from adopting PS3, which they weren't at the time.

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So you sell a defective product and up the warranty to 3 years... Repackage your product and still sell it with the defect???

Why did they choose 3 years? because they can claim the lifecycle of thier products is 3-4 years and not be accountable after that...

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Silly comment. When the 360 was released, HDMI was in it's infancy and not a great deal of use in the system. this is tad amount to saying that Sony screwed the 110 million PS2 customers because they did not supply the Cell processor in the PS2. Or Sony screwed the first 1.5 million PS3 buyers because they sold it at a higher price. This is electronics. things change on a weekly basis. Just look at how many updates your PS3 as had since it was purchased. Obviously Sony released a defective console that has need constant upgrades to get it to work right.

As far as the 90 vrs 65 nm chips, the 65nm are currently in test at MS and will probably be rolled into the system before the end of the year, not that it makes a hill bit of difference in game play. IGN It will in heat and certainly will allow MS to put together another price cut right about the time Halo 3 is released and stomps on the competition .

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1st off... please refrain from comments like "silly"... We've buried that hatchet at HTF
2ndly... BR wasnt even a format when Sony decided to add it to the PS3... so the HDMI excuse doesnt float...
3rdly... firm ware update are not defects...
4thly... this is not an attack on HD DVD so chill out...

the over heating issue with the 90nm chipset and motherboard is a known issue, yet M$ still pushes it out...

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Agreed. Let's avoid catorgrizing each other's comments with a tone of disrepsect.



Not necessarily. Some of those updates were to fix "bugs" (just like the updates for the Toshiba players). But the PS3's hardware is solid and it "worked right" (for the most part) from the beginning; most of the updates have been to add new functionality and enhance performance (ie, like upsampling for CD-audio playback). There's also a big difference between software-based bugs, which can be easily remedied via firmware udates, and hardware defects, which cannot.

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I believe Thomas was joking with this comment. I guess his point was that these equipments/consoles will be "updated" every once in a while - some with e.g. HDMI, some with "firmware updates" (latter is still clearly a better and cheaper option, we can´t argue with that).

When it comes to Xbox 360 and the "first version": I would´ve never bought the add-on to my nr.1 HD DVD-player.. Never. Good that it´s now at least upgraded and some might just do that..

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I think most of us are comforatble with products that offer firmware updates. But how can that address defective hardware components, which was what the Austan was talking about in regards to problems with the 360?

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Firmware updates are a huge "plus" when it comes to PS3. The console is getting better and better all the time (sure, many updates are minor, but still..).

There are MANY defective 360s out there and no doubt PS3 is a "better" and more "stable" console when it comes to pure hardware. Get that "three red lights of death" and it´s over.

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Sorry. I call it like I see it.
Nor was HDMI widely used or excepted outside of a faily small enthusist group. Certainly, it was not needed at the time. This is now 20 months and at least 5 HDMI revisions later. BTW, I certainly didn't compare BD in the Sony with HDMI on the 360. This was in no way an attack on BD, so chill out.
Nor is the lack of a HDMI port
No kidding.

The chip does not overheat. It works perfectly within specs. If there is a XBox 360 design flaw it is in the cooling components and air flow restrictions. While the new 65nm chip set should run more efficiently (read cooler), it's main purpose for MS is to drastically cut the costs of manufacturing the 360. When they have completed their testing I'm sure it will make it into the 360.

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Give me an ever lovin' break.

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Just let it go Thomas...
I'm not going to discuss the issue with you any further...

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The day just keeps getting better.

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This statement really is going a little bit too far....even with the smiley. I haven't had any problems with the PS3 to date. It worked out right out of the box and still does. I have not had one hiccup or freeze up with any of the discs that I have put through it, either in audio or sound. I certainly cannot say the same for my A1 HD DVD player. On that player, even with the updates, I have had hiccups, freeze ups, and sound dropouts. Some of these have occurred with new discs, and some have occurred with older discs that previously played flawlessly in the A1.

Furthermore, it isn't Sony that is having to extend the warranty on their PS3 due to defects. That honor belongs to MS, who truly did market a defective piece of hardware. The word defective means something that doesn't work or quits working altogether. The word aptly fits the MS's XBOX360 which is plagued with heat problems and board failures. Again, the failure rate is so high that MS has to resort to extending the warranty as an ass covering measure.

If, in time, Sony also has to resort to such measures then the PS3 could be determined to be defective. Until such a time arrives I think using the term "defective" is not warranted when referring to the PS3. S$%&, I cannot believe that I'm actually defending Sony!?!?

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So, I love the double edged sword.


Release a product with a 33% (rumored) failure rate, and get flamed for it.


Cover the product for an extra 2 and a half years (including crediting back those individuals that already paid for repairs), and get flamed for it.


Bummer for them.


My 360 is a launch system and it still works fine (knocks on wood.)


Truth be told, most of the bad press about system failures went away. The Xbox 360 was doing just fine. I see the warrantee coverage not as "saving their ass" but actually a public image enhancement attempt.


Not saying it's honest, or that it worked.
(because obviously you guys aren't buying it, and I personally am not affected)


Edit- Still, No EXCUSES for releasing the faulty hardware. But at least they did own up. They didnt' have to, financial, image, advertisement, whatever, they did it. In fact, I can rest easy for another year at least.

And I will announce, that If Blu-Ray reaches $200. I'll snag one. Because I do despearately want a player.

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Thats good that your XBOX360 is still up and running... It's good that you still have another year of the extended warranty... And I hope your never have a failure...

My comment on M$ screwing their consumers is based off the following:
1) to get the price down they removed the hard drive from the $299 and said it wasn't required, but newer games do require a hard drive now
2) DVD9 may not be enough for new games going forward
3) failure rates due to outsourcing to the cheapest manufacturer
4) selling a next "gen console" with some current gen hardware

If you own a XBOX360, I'm on your side... again this is not an anti-HD DVD post...

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About #1 on the hard drives. I'm not aware of any of the games that are going to require the hard drive. The Grand Theft Auto developers (or one guy, whatever) was quoted complaining about the lack of garunteed hard drive. If they could do this, I would assume that they would just require a hard drive, but I kinda doubt Microsoft allows this.


You are right about the DVD9s, as Blue Dragon is on 3 discs. This is mostly due to FMV's. I guess compression has really been the Xbox 360's best friend.

It truly does show the xbox 360's limited lifespan. But does sony really think that the PS3 could survive a new xbox system launch? Sony wanted the PS3 to last years longer than a normal system lifespan. I'm super curious as to how the next 2-3 years will play out.

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GamePro

PCWorld

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In my experience in electronics sales at a local Sears store $70 dvd players are a hard sell, most opt for the $24.99 GPX.

I've had a number of customers purchasing new HD sets in the over 2k price range ask about BD/HD-DVD, and blanch at the $299 price of the Toshiba, let alone the $499 BD players. I think they'd be receptive to $150 or so if it was a recognizable name brand.

Another trend I'm definitely seeing is much wider awareness of BluRay than of HD-DVD. The non-ht enthusiast has heard of BluRay but in most cases doesn't even know HD DVD exists. When informed of the prices for players and the fact that not all studios are releasing on both formats the vast majority decide to wait another year or so.

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Well, I cannot help but think someone has a few screws loose when he/she has no trouble spending over two bills for an HDTV, but quail at spending 1/3 to 1/2 a bill for a device that will allow them to get the maximum out of their new set. 3 to 500 dollars is chicken feed in relation to the 2 to 3000 that they are already spending.

However,I still think most people generally get turned off of a purchase just as soon as they find out that there are two formats to choose from. Nobody, except early adopting masochists -like some of the ones on this board- wants to chance spending a wad of dough and end up on the losing side.

****Wahoo!! Sony fixed a bug in the PS3 browser that limited the size of posted replys when using the onscreen keyboard. ****

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C´mon. EVERY SINGLE HD-player should and will have HDMI. It´s the basic thing now, not some super-fancy A/V geek feature. Component is soon his-to-ry.

It was a huge mistake from MS not to include that in the first place to their Xbox 360 and I fully understand the anger that it´s now coming when it´s suddenly included to every (new) console. HDMI-port is not firmware update that you can download from the net and you certainly cannot compare that to the firmaware updates of PS3.

You can say what you want, but HD DVD wasn´t the "nr.1 priority" for MS and Xbox 360, like Blu-ray was to PS3. This doesn´t mean that Xbox is "bad" (when we all know that it´s very nice game console), it just means that MS has (had?) a different strategy toward HD than Sony. Yes, people bought Xbox 360 even without the HDMI and watched some films with it, but do you really claim that it was a "great HD DVD-player" from the start? And that "they just made a few updates which is normal" (and people have to buy their console again to get that HDMI etc!).

I respect your comments, but be serious here. PS3 was more "ready" as a HD-player from the start (like I have said, I don´t say anything about the games here). And now with those firmware-updates: HDMI 1.3, 24fps, (quality!) upscaling etc. There are even rumors that PS3 would be the only (current) BD-player that can be easily updated to BD-J 1.1 (or 2.0, not sure about these). Yes, only rumor at this point, but it´s starting to feel that these delays with PS3 are now paying off for the customers. Its core is ready and firmware updates takes care of the rest. Can Xbox really say that, when you have to buy a new console to get some basic thing like HDMI? And people say that Sony is evil..

Edit: Just to make it clear for the gamers: I´m *purely* talking about the Xbox 360 and PS3 as an HD-PLAYERS - not game consoles. I have no issues with Xbox 360 when it comes to games and gaming.

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I don't think it's really fair to separate the gaming and HD playback capabilities of the Microsoft and Sony hardware, Jari. I understand the need for your disclaimer, but as you say yourself, there was a different strategy from the beginning in the design of these things.

You may not have a problem in paying a lot of money for what can be considered a great HD entertainment center, but for some, the more affordable purchase price without HDM capabilites - just a console - might be a significant factor in making a purchase decision. Since you live in the same location as I do, you are probably aware that even with the HD DVD add-on, the XBox is about a hundred euros cheaper than the PS3. Again, you can argue that you get advanced features and perhaps a more seamless user experience, and that the purchase is future-proof - but people who just want to play games won't care. I fact, they might go for the Wii instead.

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didn't he just say that he was comparing the HD-player capability/features of the two systems, and NOT their gaming aspects (with which he had no problem)???

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If Microsoft had done the things that Sony did, they would have been late, and more expensive.



Obviously we're witnessing the effects of such decisions.


Maybe the best thing sony will achieve with the PS3 is the domination of Blu-Ray.

Other than that, they're in last place for for everything video games right now.