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*** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread *See Post 957, p. 32* - Page 5

post #121 of 992
8/14/07 at 6:51am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Walter, quite true. But those are DVD consumers, not HD consumers who are bringing the wrong discs home. And yes, I'm sure that it does sour their taste for HD media when/if they finally learn about it!

The situation I'm talking about is when someone excited about their new HD player brings "the wrong HD flavor" home... or their wife buys the wrong flavor of disc for their birthday present. The idea is that an HD player should play the "new and old" discs so one shouldn't have to every worry once you get an HD player. If you now have to worry about which type of HD disc gets purchased, for many consumers who are less HT-saavy, it's not worth the frustration.
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post #122 of 992
8/14/07 at 7:00am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

I'd like to think that the distinctive Blue and Red packaging might assist HD newbies, but perhaps I am being too optimistic. (Especially since I just described a scenario with some SD consumers attempting to play HD media.)

- Walter.
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post #123 of 992
8/14/07 at 7:05am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

My roomates *still* haven't learned that they can't play Blu-ray Discs in the living room DVD player, depsite the repeated lessons! It's convinced me that as soon as BD player prices come down a bit more there will be a second unit upstairs so "all movies will play just fine" on every HDTV in the house.
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post #124 of 992
8/14/07 at 7:06am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

David, please refer back to my very first post to you in this discussion. You're making an end-around around the point.

You're now saying that two viable formats is not possible in the current market. I probably agree with that. But my whole point in bringing that up in the first place was to dispel the notion you were promoting that Disney et al. were taking the only reasonable course of action by not supporting HD DVD, when in fact their support of HD DVD would be the very thing that would make both formats viable. You've constructed a perfect circle of self-supporting logic, and your constant dictums to refer back to earlier points in the conversation rather than to actually make the point only serves to reinforce it.

But to this point, your only argument against two viable formats (other than a self-fulfilling "it's not possible now") is that consumers wouldn't tolerate bringing home the wrong type of disc. Somehow, I don't see that as an insurmountable obstacle.
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post #125 of 992
8/14/07 at 7:12am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Quote:
The moment someone would get home with a movie-rental of the wrong disc type that would be the end of that.
Affordable, standard, dual-format player -> end of problem.


Cees
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post #126 of 992
8/14/07 at 7:17am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Norman,

it would take more than studios releasing movie content on both discs to transform HD DVD/BD from a "war" into "two viable formats". It would also take CE manufacturers other than Toshiba willing to invest in hardware.

The problem is that Toshiba's profit-cutting sales strategy to create a "consumer advantage" with low-cost players has driven away all interest by other major CE companies to get behind HD DVD hardware. Were Toshiba to restore profits by raising costs... they'd lose their only real advantage with the consumer. If they keep costs so low, they lose their only chance of long-term success by discouraging other hardware vendors from producing HD DVD hardware and "legitimizing" the format's viability in the public's eye. Catch 22!


As Cees mentions, yes, an affordable dual-format player (that REALLY is full dual-format with all features of both formats) would negate much of the fear. However, by the time such players are affordable, the need may have evaporated.
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post #127 of 992
8/14/07 at 7:54am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Quote:
The problem is that Toshiba's profit-cutting sales strategy to create a "consumer advantage" with low-cost players has driven away all interest by other major CE companies to get behind HD DVD hardware.
Although the announcement of an Onkyo HD DVD player doesn't totally dispel the broader economic validity of this arrow frequently pulled from your and Bill Hunt's quiver, hopefully the broad language ("driven away ALL interest") will now get less totalizing. As currently and commonly phrased, it's just not a factual statement anymore.
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post #128 of 992
8/14/07 at 8:03am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

That is true, though at:

Quote:
The DV-HD805 will be available in the fall of 2007 at a suggested retail price of $899

It's coming in as a high-cost, high-end option to avoid competition with Toshiba's affordable line-up of entry-level gear (though your point that it's a non-Toshbia HD DVD hardware product is no less valid). It sounds like a great product, and with HDMI 1.3 should be nicely paired with Onkyo's new line-up of receivers that do in-house decoding for advanced audio streams.
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post #129 of 992
8/14/07 at 8:29am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

I knew you would parry with a post about the price, David.

It seems that's a 'damned if they did, damned if they didn't' issue: had the player been priced at, say, $399 I surmise the/your criticism would be of how Tosh is forcing other manufs to toe their low price-defining line. At $899, it's 'avoiding competition with Tosh's entry level.'

On the latter, maybe; maybe not. The price could have less to do with any disingenuous strategy on Onkyo's part vis-a-vis Tosh and more to do with the HQV Reon VX vid processing and HDMI 1.3a compliance (and I think the latter is a precedent).
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post #130 of 992
8/14/07 at 8:30am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Norman,

how long have you been at HTF? Are you suggesting that you never read the infamouns "The format war is nearly over" thread that was a zillion pages long?

Well, I've been a member for about 9 years, and I didn't read that thread either! A couple of random dips just gave the impression of people with time on their hands splitting hairs.

You can't blame Norman for not wanting to sift through all that!
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post #131 of 992
8/14/07 at 8:51am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Paul,

wasn't implying anything disingenuous about Onkyo's strategy: Toshiba does leave other manufacturers one (profitable) option for getting into the HD DVD hardware game: high-end players. Onkyo's doing that. Just like Denon and others have produced high-end BD devices. Nothing wrong with high-end!
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post #132 of 992
8/14/07 at 10:49am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Quote:
ReggieW #114: With less than 2% of the marrket, It's NEVER too late.

HD DVD fans, please update your comeback to sales numbers with 4%.
Startribune
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post #133 of 992
8/14/07 at 10:59am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.S
Although the announcement of an Onkyo HD DVD player doesn't totally dispel the broader economic validity of this arrow frequently pulled from your and Bill Hunt's quiver, hopefully the broad language ("driven away ALL interest") will now get less totalizing. As currently and commonly phrased, it's just not a factual statement anymore.

I wonder what will be said IF more HD-DVD players are displayed at Cedia from manufacturer's other than Toshiba & Onkyo? I am not talking about dual-format players but dedicated stand-alone HD-DVD players -- and I'm speaking in addition to the mythic Chinese players we've been hearing about the past year? I figure The Digital Bits will probably ignore the story just as they did the Onkyo announcement.

Anyone care to wager?
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post #134 of 992
8/14/07 at 11:07am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

The Digital Bits is still reviewing HD DVD movies and giving them good reviews. Just because someone doesnt agree with your opinion, it doesnt mean they are out got get you...
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post #135 of 992
8/14/07 at 12:00pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Quote:
I wonder what will be said IF more HD-DVD players are displayed at Cedia from manufacturer's other than Toshiba & Onkyo? I am not talking about dual-format players but dedicated stand-alone HD-DVD players -- and I'm speaking in addition to the mythic Chinese players we've been hearing about the past year? I figure The Digital Bits will probably ignore the story just as they did the Onkyo announcement.

Reggie,

The Onkyo announcement is good news for HD DVD (Onkyo also stated that they might produce a BD player, which I wish they would do since no one else has bothered with a stand-alone with HDMI 1.3 that can stream advanced audio codecs).

However, more chinese players will only continue to hurt HD DVD for long-term viability as it will mean more low-cost players that keep the big brand names from wanting to bother with support. What a format needs to generate confidence is for consumers to see names that they trust. Sure, once they are confident that a format is here to stay (ala DVD), they'll buy cheap players and be happy. But instant low-cost Chinese players can also backfire by driving away brand-name support and keeping consumers suspect about a format's industry-backing and long-term viability.
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post #136 of 992
8/14/07 at 12:18pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Alright already with your oft-repeated theory about the problematics of the, as Reggie aptly put it, "mythic" Chinese players, David. Why the focus on that sub-issue when Reggie's broader point appears to me to be asking how some of us might move the criticism goalposts (again) "IF" (his caps) manufs OTHER than the Chinese bring HD DVD players to market?

I think we're all familiar by now with your (IMO problematically speculative) position regarding the impact these mythic Chinese players possibly hitting Walmart shelves may have on other manufs entering the HD DVD market.

But that wasn't my understanding of his point. Rather, it was/is what new criticism/disqualifier will BD advocates cook up to discount the significance of other manufs possibly entering the HD DVD market despite months of speculation that that could not happen.
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post #137 of 992
8/14/07 at 12:44pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

David B

"However, more chinese players will only continue to hurt HD DVD for long-term viability as it will mean more low-cost players that keep the big brand names from wanting to bother with support. What a format needs to generate confidence is for consumers to see names that they trust. Sure, once they are confident that a format is here to stay (ala DVD), they'll buy cheap players and be happy. But instant low-cost Chinese players can also backfire by driving away brand-name support and keeping consumers suspect about a format's industry-backing and long-term viability."

How can you say this? Have you ever heard of Samsung?

Samsung got its start by selling low cost stereo VHS machines (That is the first time I noticed them anyway) that were cheap but decent quality. They have gone on to become IMHO one of the premier HT Electronic companies of the day. From humble beginnings can come great things.

If a Chinese company can produce a nice HD DVD player for a good price, they can possibly do what Samsung has done, turn themselves from a niche player into a giant.

If the big boys see a lot of HD DVD players flying off Walmart shelves, they will take notice and will follow suite. Doing nothing (ala Sony) could mean they will have another fierce competitor to contend with.

I bet Sony wishes they had dealt with the competition from Samsung a lot better than they did. They would be selling a lot more TV's etc now.

Dave
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post #138 of 992
8/14/07 at 12:46pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

If the price is low enough most consumers really don't care who made the player. At that point they become a disposable item. Now I don't think that even the mythical Chinese players will reach that price soon, but eventually they will. I have no doubt that you will eventually see HD DVD and Blu-ray players in the $50 range. At that price people don't care if its made by Pioneer or Onkyo or Coby.

Doug
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post #139 of 992
8/14/07 at 12:51pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave>h

How can you say this? Have you ever heard of Samsung?

Samsung got its start by selling low cost stereo VHS machines (That is the first time I noticed them anyway) that were cheap but decent quality. They have gone on to become IMHO one of the premier HT Electronic companies of the day. From humble beginnings can come great things.

This is an great point. There was a time when all those Korean companies were looked down on as cheap versions of Japanese products. Goldstar anyone? Goldstar is now LG. Actually if you go back far enough Onkyo was considered to be cheap electronics and set on store shelves along side the likes of Sounddesign.

Doug
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post #140 of 992
8/14/07 at 12:59pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austan
The Digital Bits is still reviewing HD DVD movies and giving them good reviews. Just because someone doesnt agree with your opinion, it doesnt mean they are out got get you...

You need to carefully read what I wrote again. This has NOTHING to do with my opinion (why would the omission of the Onkyo at the Bits have anything to do with anyone's opinion - either they featured it or they didn't). I have no proof that Bill intentionally avoided this announcement. It could've simply have been an oversight on their part, or maybe not. Mistakes happen. It's just that with the BD flag-waving of recent months, one is sometimes forced to assume the worst.
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post #141 of 992
8/14/07 at 1:07pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

The bits recently reported on the 3rd gen HD decks as well as the add-on price drop. Perhaps it was just an oversight. They're surprisingly behind on news at times.

Or they could be the devil.
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post #142 of 992
8/14/07 at 1:19pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Reggie,

The Onkyo announcement is good news for HD DVD (Onkyo also stated that they might produce a BD player, which I wish they would do since no one else has bothered with a stand-alone with HDMI 1.3 that can stream advanced audio codecs).

However, more chinese players will only continue to hurt HD DVD for long-term viability as it will mean more low-cost players that keep the big brand names from wanting to bother with support. What a format needs to generate confidence is for consumers to see names that they trust. Sure, once they are confident that a format is here to stay (ala DVD), they'll buy cheap players and be happy. But instant low-cost Chinese players can also backfire by driving away brand-name support and keeping consumers suspect about a format's industry-backing and long-term viability.

..And on the flip side, Denon and Samsung both have left the door open to producing stand-alone HD-DVD players. I have e-mailed Denon and they have confirmed with me as much. I think it's safe to assume that with the exception of Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic & Toshiba, there really are no true to heart exclusive CE manufactuerers for these formats. I am really interested in seeing what Yamaha, Marantz, NAD (they've hinted at a Uni player) & Meridian will do. These are higher end components, so I would not expect the presence of cheap Chinese players to threaten their market, much like Onkyo obviously didn't feel undecut. I would honestly much rather see LG or Samsung street HD-DVD stand-alones than the high-end companies at this stage, because this is what is needed for HD-DVD to receive the visibility among consumers it deserves. While the high-end companies are cool for bragging rights, they probably won't do much to help either format at this stage.
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post #143 of 992
8/14/07 at 1:21pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrettB
Or they could be the devil.

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post #144 of 992
8/14/07 at 1:25pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

"[He's] not the devil . . . [he's] practice." --Bruce Wayne, in that little [HD DVD-exclusive] bat movie
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post #145 of 992
8/14/07 at 1:36pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Temporary...

"I've seen the future and it will be
I've seen the future and it will be
BLU-RAY, BLU-RAY
I've seen the future and it will be
BLU-RAY (house, do it, house)
"And where, and where ... is the BLU-RAY?"

(come on Warner)
Do it, do it
let's do it, let's do it
Do it, do it, do it, do it"

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post #146 of 992
8/14/07 at 2:34pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

All exclusives are temporary.

You will be able to buy Pirates of the Caribbean on another high-def format one day.
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post #147 of 992
8/14/07 at 2:37pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Stop it. You're killing me.
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post #148 of 992
8/14/07 at 5:17pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman Matthews
All exclusives are temporary.

You will be able to buy Pirates of the Caribbean on another high-def format one day.

Microsoft Direct Digital Download.
With DRM and play limits.
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post #149 of 992
8/14/07 at 6:36pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Berggren
Microsoft Direct Digital Download.
With DRM and play limits.
*Grassy knoll not included.
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post #150 of 992
8/14/07 at 6:42pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Comparison Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Are you suggesting that the points such as how the average consumer still fears getting burned with a format war like they did with Beta/VHS are concepts you've never heard discussed before?
The average consumer has no concerns about getting burned because he is not interested in either format, and that is assumming he actually knows about them. There is no fear of one format being killed off except in these forums with the early adopter.
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