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**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106* - Page 14

post #391 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Nothing much to add but a big thumbs up for RAF's, Tim Glover and Neil Middlemiss' posts in this thread.

IMHO, it should always be about seeing films in the best possible manner; which means owning a playback device for Bd and HD DVD. Others may disagree, of course.

- Walter.
post #392 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Wow! Is this legit: http://www.shootfortheedit.com/forum...pic.php?t=2299

Michael Bay is pissed about the decision.
post #393 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein
Neil,

And for all the slamming being done about HD-DVD tactics,
let's not forget that it was Sony who started this "all or nothing"
attitude. No matter what, Sony decided that they would go
forth with their own format without compromise. Furthermore,
retailers were being subsidized to prominently display Blu-Ray.
You think Sony hasn't been throwing money around to retailers
and studios to influence them?! With those type of tactics, how
can anyone scream about what is "allegedly" being done with
Paramount and DreamWorks?! What is so different here?!


Agreed, Ron. The huge hypocrisy that is being slung around the forums for the last 24 hours is that somehow Paramount is shady because financial incentives are involved. What the hell do people think Sony has been doing the last year or two?

Let the machines get to the price you want to pay, and start enjoying your movies... on both formats!
post #394 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Kittel
IMHO, it should always be about seeing films in the best possible manner; which means owning a playback device for Bd and HD DVD..

We are really going in circles here. Do you feel that HD will be adopted by the "masses", if they have to buy two players? I mean really? "Owning playback device for Bd and HD DVD" is not how it should be for that "average joe". But hell, if we want to keep this HD-thingy as a minor "hobby" between us AV/film buffs, then it´s another story.

It´s just we say these same issues all over again.
post #395 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd_N
Wow! Is this legit: http://www.shootfortheedit.com/forum...pic.php?t=2299

Michael Bay is pissed about the decision.


Bay is going to receive the largest paycheck of his life for the Transformers sequel, not to mention a fat backend. No way this is legit unless he is a complete moron (which despite his films, is not the case )

Cheers,

Jason
post #396 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

How much money does Bay make off home video sales? Maybe he is upset since one of the Transformers revenue streams (BD) is now not there for him.
post #397 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Jari - My previous post was (mostly) in reference to participants on this forum; whom I would presume are enthusiasts to one degree or another. I don't expect the masses to purchase two players. I expect that HD media will remain a niche format for the next 3 to 5 years. I am fine with it remaining a niche format.

- Walter.
post #398 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Some have ascribed rather sinister motives to Microsoft and Toshiba, somehow seducing the virginal Paramount into a life of sin and wickedness in HD DVD.
I just wanted to give a hearty to this. Awesome.

Also, Jari's comments about the sudden disinterest some people feel for the entire catalogs of some studios being the most ridiculous aspect of this war are spot on.

Finally, I already had every currently released Paramount title I planned on purchasing on HD, so I picked up The Untouchables (which I hadn't purchased only because I already had the SD) on my way home yesterday to say thanks. So, again, thanks Paramount!
post #399 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd_N
How much money does Bay make off home video sales? Maybe he is upset since one of the Transformers revenue streams (BD) is now not there for him.

The paltry sum he would gain from the BD release (assuming he had some kind of dvd deal) is inconsequential compared to how much he will make for the Transformers Sequel. Seriously, what would he make from the BD or now HD-DVD-only release - selling maybe 150,000 copies? Maybe he'd see $10,000 from that. Unlikely he's upset about that - certainly not enough to pass over the multi-millions he's going to earn from the sequel.

Also - if he did make this comment - it was a a quick, reactionary comment, much like we've seen here on the forum. And his PR rep would beat the piss out of him for it. But again - very likely this wasn't him.

On a side note - I have to hand it to TIM, RAF, RON, and all trying to keep this civil. I checked out a month or so ago, because this all got so damn heated and it was pissing me off. Now we have a direct challenge to civility right after Tim's fantastic "burying the hatchet" post and it seems that we've been able to keep the waters somewhat calm - few waves here and there, but I'm proud of most of you guys and gals for trying to keep that hatchet buried. And I'm glad I've come back to the forum.

Cheers,

Jason
post #400 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
If you will re-read what I wrote I clearly stated that I was talking about offerings which were available on both formats (which means mostly if not all Warner and Paramount - until now - titles.) My comment that the audio was better on these titles only is quite clear and is a fact not an opinion. It most certainly becomes a format issue when a studio that supposedly supports both formats chooses to provide better audio to only one format - especially if there is no physical reason for not supplying it to both. I got burned when purchasing Babel on BD after I found out that the audio on the HD-DVD version was better. But I learned my lesson.

RAF,

re-read the first sentence I said about WB. My point was that the decision to dumb-down the audio on the BD was a STUDIO choice... it was deliberate. Warner could have provided LOSSLESS audio on those BD titles... and had them sound as good or better than the lossy 1.5 kbps DD on the HD DVD versions. Instead, they chose to go 640 DD. Warner has been taken to task over and over for their intentional dumbing-down of audio quality for BD. It's one way that studio has demonstrated their favoring of HD DVD... by purposefully giving it the better audio signal.

I wasn't suggesting that those HD DVDs didn't sound better. I was suggesting that it's not a "format" issue... it's a STUDIO choice. The fact that Disney and Sony have provided LOSSLESS on *all* their BD titles (even 25GB discs) should make it obvsious that BD has plenty of bandwidth for lossless, and that WB's decision to go with a lower-bit-rate lossy codec for BD versus HD DVD wasn't due to technical limitations, but rather to political agendas.

It's not correct to say that "HD DVD usually sounds better". Rather, it's correct to say "Warner chooses to favor HD DVD audio quality over BD audio quality for their own political reasons".

Hope that helps clarify.
post #401 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Kittel
My previous post was (mostly) in reference to participants on this forum; whom I would presume are enthusiasts to one degree or another.

Yes, fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Kittel
I am fine with it remaining a niche format.

I believe this is somewhat alarming attitude (generally speaking here, not just you Walter). Niche format = No format in the end. Do we really want that? Enjoy HD-releases some years and then go back to DVD or some crappy HD-downloading?

This is now the big question for all of us and our camp is probably divided. Some are indeed happy if HD remains a "niche format" (yeah! "Our format has Fox!" Yeah! "Our format has Paramount!"), but many of us want HD to become a "new DVD" for both of us A/V-buffs and the masses alike.
post #402 of 3878
Thread Starter 

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jari K
We are really going in circles here. Do you feel that HD will be adopted by the "masses", if they have to buy two players? I mean really? "Owning playback device for Bd and HD DVD" is not how it should be for that "average joe". But hell, if we want to keep this HD-thingy as a minor "hobby" between us AV/film buffs, then it´s another story.

It´s just we say these same issues all over again.
If you want to see things going in circles, just wait until HD-DVD or Blu-Ray or some as-yet-unavailable HD format attains wide market penetration. All of a sudden the "A/V film buffs" will be whining about how the format has been "dumbed down" for the masses. Then we really will have come full circle.

M.
post #403 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
And for all the slamming being done about HD-DVD tactics,
let's not forget that it was Sony who started this "all or nothing"
attitude. No matter what, Sony decided that they would go
forth with their own format without compromise.

Actually, Sony had been developing the blue-laser for HD disc media long before the DVD forum decided to switch from a red laser. Originally, the DVD forum and Toshbia were going to try to put HD media on standard DVD discs at 720p resolution using lots of heavy VC1 compression to get everything to fit. The DVD forum only went with a Blue laser in order to compete with Sony's BD spec once it was clear that it was a viable format.

Sony was also the first to try to get merge-talks going with Toshiba. Sony wanted to keep their 50GB disc structure (their format's strength) and go with Toshiba's better software and codecs (VC1/AVC, advanced audio etc.). Toshiba was the one that walked out of those talks because they didn't want to let go of the 30GB disc structure. Sony actually ended up adopting Toshiba's advanced software anyway, so BD is actually a "merged format" without the official label.
post #404 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jari K
Niche format = No format in the end. Do we really want that? Enjoy HD-releases some years and then go back to DVD or some crappy HD-downloading?

There was once a successful "niche" format that lasted over 20 years called Laserdisc. I still have my player up and operational after 10 years with DVD. In fact we popped a Laserdisc in just a few weeks ago. Lobster Man from Mars with Tony Curtis!

Cheers,

Jason
post #405 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Let me just get this straight ... for the casual shopper's P.O.V.

Now they have to buy TWO different players at a combined cost of about $700 (or a $1000 for a combo player) at the cheapest to get all the movies they would want to watch? With a combined library that pales in comparision to DVD? With discs that on average cost a healthy margin more than their DVD counterparts?

Yeah I'm sure people are just going to be falling over themselves rushing to stores to get in on this, lol. Good job Sony, Toshiba, Microsoft, for not being able to compromise, lol. Most satelite and cable providers already offer a growing number of HD content including HD movies, I think a lot of people are just to opt for that instead of this.

If this is how the DVD transition went down I would bet dollars to donughts you'd still have VHS in every Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Blockbuster Video, etc.
post #406 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Jari - My attitude or viewpoint comes mostly from an acceptance of how things are (and trying to make the best of that situation). Personally, I do not believe that posting on any forum is going to have any affect on the outcome of the format war. (I'm an itsy-bitsy consumer cog in the big machine of commerce, so to speak) So rather than get ulcers worrying about it, I just enjoy what is available.

I do not share the opinion that niche status will doom the HD formats. Whether or not this is naive, wishful thinking; an unrealistic optimism on my part, a coping mechanism for the realities of home video; or something entirely else remains to be seen.

- Walter.
post #407 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
For Paramount to make a blatantly anti-consumer move, simply on the basis of monetary incentives just rubs me the wrong way - and they can spin in PR all they want, everyone knows that's how it went down.

So you feel Disney, Fox and MGM have all made "Anti consumer" moves as well by only supporting BD, right?
post #408 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

The hypocrisy we're seeing is the fanboys coming out. It becomes quite obvious which people care about HD and which care about their format of choice.
post #409 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Middlemiss
If every studio was format exclusive, we, as consumers, wouldn't care that both were hanging around. In some strange way, this announcement may help with format neutrality in the long rung. However, it may not seem that way for now, and it must sound like a bitter pill for BD fans, just as the Blockbuster, Target, and recent smattering of smaller studio exclusivity announcements in favour of Blu must have seemed bitter to HD fans.

I want films from every studio and I want them in High Def. If I have to own both pieces of hardware to do so, shame on the studios, but so be it.

For me (and almost everyone else in here) it is about the film; it is about those golden moments of screen gems that the wonderful world of film gives us. The explosive, bombastic popcorn popping adrenaline films; the thrilling, creepy, tense, scary-as-hell bloodfest films; the tender, sweet, happy & romantic films...but always, the films!


I agree. I purchased both formats to be able to enjoy all of the films released in HD. I would prefer non-exclusivity from the studios, but as long as they want to be exclusive (completely their prerogative) I personally will fix it by supporting both formats. With the price of the stand-alones from both formats continually dropping, the financial impact to the consumer continues to lessen.

Come on studios. Isn't it about time for across the board non-exclusivity?
post #410 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

There's a real division going on now. Some people are perfectly happy buying two players and having HD remain a niche. Others want one player and HD to go mainstream. I'm the latter. The more mainstream HD discs become, the better chance of some of my favorite movies being released. You think it took Lucas a long time to release on DVD? Imagine how long it would take for Star Wars to get released on one of the two niche HD formats. That's what I worry about.

I'm going to give it another year and see if a winner emerges before I buy anymore HD discs. If no winner emerges, I'll give up and wait for the next great format if there is one. I refuse to be a foot soldier for either side.
post #411 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Richardson
So you feel Disney, Fox and MGM have all made "Anti consumer" moves as well by only supporting BD, right?

The difference in my opinion is that upfront it was known that the above studios currently are not releasing HD-DVD.

With BD people have made the investment knowing (or at least thought they knew) what studios were releasing product at the time of purchase. Now after that investment was made one of the studios has backed out after already releasing product.

That is a big difference if you ask me.
post #412 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd_N
How much money does Bay make off home video sales? Maybe he is upset since one of the Transformers revenue streams (BD) is now not there for him.
At this time, there is not enough money in the revenue stream for either HD format that would go to the director to get very upset about.
post #413 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Roer
There was once a successful "niche" format that lasted over 20 years called Laserdisc.

I respect all the LD-fans, but this is just what I´m afraid of. While it´s pretty much impossible that HD would become a "new Laserdisc", I definitely want that HD will break through into the masses. It SHOULD do that, IMO.
post #414 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
I want films from every studio and I want them in High Def. If I have to own both pieces of hardware to do so, shame on the studios, but so be it.

Yeah, it's great to be format neutral. I just invested in a PS3 but even if Blu-Ray was to dissapear forever tomorrow, I have to spend a few more bucks for HD-DVD, not the end of the world. However, like many I am concerned that as long as a format war exists that many of those films won't be released. At least many of the lower key catalog titles that we are all hoping will be released.

In the end, I hope one will win. If it's not Blu-Ray, I'll still have a game machine.

Quote:
There was once a successful "niche" format that lasted over 20 years called Laserdisc.

Yeah, but I don't think it's the same thing here. Laserdisc did well among enthusiasts for so long because the only other alternative was at the time was VHS with a low quality Panned and Scanned image, only stereo sound and no supplements (with rare exceptions). Laserdisc was a revelation compared to VHS. The difference between DVD and Hi-Def is not nearly as staggering for most people. DVD is still plenty good enough for most people, even many enthusiasts who don't want to jump into a fledgling format in the midst of a war and are choosing to wait it out.

Quote:
I'm going to give it another year and see if a winner emerges before I buy anymore HD discs. If no winner emerges, I'll give up and wait for the next great format if there is one

I rest my case
post #415 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I still have not bought in to HD. And now I think I'm gonna wait some more. Upconverted DVD's will do for now.
post #416 of 3878

Re: Paramount and Dreamworks HD-DVD Exclusive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd H
Anybody else thinking that this pretty much seals the deal for both formats remaining niche products? Every mainstream article I read talks about how consumers are confused and are waiting things out. I think eventually they'll get tired of waiting for a winner and just continue choosing standard DVD. Congrats to all of the companies on both sides for this incredible clusterfuck.
Yup -- I have two words: SACD & DVD-A. Unless they kill the stupid format war very, very soon, and make a deal on a unified, region free format -- HD discs are dead and downloads will win in the end. How many SACDs+DVD-As were sold this years vs. albums on iTunes?
post #417 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Can we wait until after the holiday season to say that HDM is dead and we are all going to be living in download hell for the forceeable future? Most consumers don't even know about HDM. The Paramount story is the biggest format war story to date. A lot of the $$ Paramount received is actually a marketing campaign during the holiday season that Toshiba will run touting Shrek 3. That along with Sony's 100Mil marketing campaign is going to fuel awareness. Combine that with cheap prices on players and I think you will all be suprised at how many units both sides move during the 4th quarter. I think both formats hardware and software will be a big part of black friday.
post #418 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

This is great news, more bickering and adds more confusion of this format war.
post #419 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Actually, Sony had been developing the blue-laser for HD disc media long before the DVD forum decided to switch from a red laser. Originally, the DVD forum and Toshbia were going to try to put HD media on standard DVD discs at 720p resolution using lots of heavy VC1 compression to get everything to fit. The DVD forum only went with a Blue laser in order to compete with Sony's BD spec once it was clear that it was a viable format.

Sony was also the first to try to get merge-talks going with Toshiba. Sony wanted to keep their 50GB disc structure (their format's strength) and go with Toshiba's better software and codecs (VC1/AVC, advanced audio etc.). Toshiba was the one that walked out of those talks because they didn't want to let go of the 30GB disc structure. Sony actually ended up adopting Toshiba's advanced software anyway, so BD is actually a "merged format" without the official label.

The DVD Forum did not approve the original specs for HD DVD using the red laser, but this decision was not based upon anything Sony was doing with the blue laser -- they simply wanted something with more capacity. You make it seem as though Sony instigated the DVD Forum's decision to improve the specs. The blue laser had become commercially viable in the mid-1990's, and Sony had no hand in its development. The DVD Forum and its many members including Warner Brothers wanted a cost-effective solution to HD optical. The reason the Forum would not approve Blu-Ray is because it was clearly not cost-effective -- this is why Sony took its disc structure and ran with as much support as they could muster. In 2004, Microsoft, Universal, Warner, Paramount and Disney were supposedly on board with HD DVD, so the support was always there. Why did Disney suddenly jump to BD exclusively and abandon HD DVD? Sony apparently threw $ around from the start in an attempt to squash the competition before the was ever started. Yet we are now upset that Toshiba has retaliated with a similar tactic.

If Blu-Ray had decimated HD early and became the only option for HD optical media, hardware prices would no doubt still be hovering around $1000, or we'd all be stuck with a videgame console for playback. Look at FOX and their $40 titles (all on single-layered, 25GB discs with no features), or the announced $50 Spiderman 3 disc from Sony. Even with competition in the marketplace, these companies think they can bilk the consumers who want their products. The format war has been the best thing for HD optical, and this new move will finally give the more consumer-oriented format the edge.

Blu-Ray's advantage was always touted as capacity, specs, and better quality than HD DVD. When this proved to be a non-issue, they started with the studio support advantage. Now that is also being restructured. One simple truism has always existed -- HD DVD is much less expensive to produce both in hardware & software -- and this simple fact has been an advantage for them since Day 1. The fact that Blu-Ray decided to release a semi-complete format at twice the price didn't help either.
post #420 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

It's true that it looks like there seems to be a push to downloads, but with DRM and limited bandwith in the US that isn't going to be a viable solution for HD for a very long time.
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Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*