**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106* - Page 127

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

I agree, Sam. In addition I'm sure a way could be found to embedd a unique watermark in each purchased download to trace the source down in the event it is distributed illegally. Also the studio doesn't have to plan months in advance finding a slot in a queque for replication, or shuttle media around to distributers or packaging houses. As soon as the content is compressed its ready to be put up and the money can start coming in- no delayed gratification. It is easy to see the many reasons the studio would value this kind of a system over packaged media ( especially if the media has to be downloaded to a special box and then can not be burned to disc . or saved on a flash card). This is coming because, just like Bd, the studios/corporations get what the studios/corporations want and we are merely consumer bitches who can then take it or leave it. Your desires are noted...but irrelevant.
You may not like the prospect of this any better than the 100,000 or 200,000 HD DVD supporters liked seeing their format of choice asphyxiated, but in the scheme of things, Bd isn't likely to be any more significant. I hope it would be- but let's be adults and pragmatic. Every Bd owner that now can't wait for Universal or Paramount ports of Hd DVDs has had ample opportunity to own this material for some time in HD. Whether they chose not to came down to a matter of either zealotry or convienence (which could be in the form of cost, space, or a desire for a 'consistent' collection) but they then have to be circumspect enough to realize these are the exact same considerations impacting the masses. And the same reasons( among others) that will keep them from adopting Bd much the same way so many 'Bd-only HDM enthusiasts' refused to adopt HD DVD.. With the huge exception being-there is no exclusive (feature)content they are giving up by not buying into Bd. Until that last part starts happening consistently, there is nothing here to 'rally around'. The format remains just an odd side curiosity for HT geeks.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

Okay, let´s. Let´s not be "naive" or anything like that.

BD is eventually doomed. Like HD DVD was. Downloading is the new god. Got it. Who knows, perhaps this all will eventually happen. But: At least they (=downloading) won´t get my money.

If the downloading arrives and physical media disappears, it´s "goodbye HD purchases - welcome free torrent-sites" for me. It´s that simple. Give me that (quality) physical media and I´ll give studios at least part of my money.

It´ll be interesting to see that how many are actually willing to pay for the downloadable movies and further more - willing to download the audio commentary, documentary, deleted scenes, etc along with the film. And lossless audio etc. And probably pay for those also.. You just want to "see the film"? Then you rent that movie.

Now I understand if the downloading will replace the "rental"-business and similar stuff where you just want to watch the film a few times (and which cost a few dollars), but since many people are still "collectors" (DVD or Blu-ray), I really doubt that they´re willing to pay *real money* for the downloadable movies (let alone for the SD or "lower" 720p ones..). Or keep their "movie collection" in their hard drivers or flash memory cards (or something). Music is in many ways a different thing, since you "only" have stereo-audio (there are 5.1-music also, of course)...

Some people are very skeptical toward Blu-ray and I can see some of the reasons why is that. Some are also very bitter of the format war and its outcome, I can also understand that in some degree. But I would assume that people should be quite skeptical toward downloading also (meaning that it would "replace" physical media and all that)... At least I don´t believe in downloading.

But, perhaps in the future, the real winner will be the Hollywood studios after all. Since there´s no more physical media and downloading is mainly for the rentals etc, people will go to the old fashion movie theatres. Sure, they do that all the time now, but perhaps in the future almost everyone does that..

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

I cant see average people paying for the computer/ISP that downloads would really need. A movie or TV episode is not the same as a song. I am sure it will happen, but not as soon as some (computer geeks)would like. Asking a computer geek if downloads are the future of home theater is about the same as asking me, or half the other home theater geeks, if Blu-ray will surpass DVD.
<---home theater geek

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Not only do I agree that Blu Ray is doomed for failure but also that downloads as a permanent solution to home video is also doomed to failure. With the current wave of lawsuits that Sony and the BDA are going through for violating trademark patents associated with the technology but that, for the average consumer, they're not going to buy into it because the price range for players and the disks are priced far out of their range.

The future of downlods also will be a failure because, let's say that you download a series of movies and television shows. Not only are you not allowed to backup that content to blank disks or transfer them to another hard drive but that you also cannot transfer the content to another family member because you are only granted a license to download and play the material on the original computer but that you cannot lend the content to a family member by copying it to a disk.

This whole matter was discussed by a lawsuit brought by the RIAA against a filesharer in which she (the RIAA agent) was quoted to saying that downloading content to a machine was allowed but that you cannot backup, transfer to another computer or transfer to an mp3 or media device as that would, according to the RIAA, violate their copyrights for that content.

This would mean that if your hard drive crashes forcing you to buy a new hard drive to use on your computer, you would be required to download a new copy of that content in order to maintain the license.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

We're all doomed!







Crawdaddy

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

here's something else to consider: how many catalog titles will be rereleased this year in remastered/SE editions? Now how many of those are going to be only on Bd versus how many are going to be only on DVD? Last year I was aware of only one such title being available only as an HDM- Road Warrior. This year I'm not aware of any. You would think that an HD format would be the primary focus studios would have for the rerelease of catalog already available on sd...at the very least giving the Bd release some window of advantage to make it seem more compelling or special. Instead it it is either a day/date release like Sony or Warner (Gattaca, Baron Munchausen, Bonnie & Clyde) or as is the case with Fox/MGM we get nothing (The Apartment, 12 Angry Men, etc). For some reason the studios are not treating Bd as anything truly special or a prestige product that deserves any kind of preferential treatment. Its almost the opposite in many cases with a supplement starved premium priced release. 'Doomed' is hyperbolic but there is clearly a lack of motivating factors for Bd adoption now - and that has to change drastically. Are studios able to see this? Do they care? I really wonder. People here seem resigned that not much will change for the positive in 2008. If people feel that's the case...and that changes will come organically at an un-enforced pace when the studios are ready, then again there is nothing here to rally around.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

I’ve posted many times that downloads will continue to grow but I have also mentioned that physical media will never completely disappear. I can see a future in which physical media is less of a revenue stream for the studios then downloading but that won’t happen tomorrow. Right now for me physical media is my preference but I’m not closed minded and I realize that has the technology advances downloading may have some advantages that are appealing. I’ll just have to wait and evaluate the new technologies has they appear. Those who think that downloaded media will never be able to match physical media in terms of quality are just not being realistic. Well that’s a mature attitude. If there is anything everyone here should be able to agree on, it is that stealing content is wrong and should be discouraged.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

I love it!

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

While I agree that stealing content is wrong and I would not participate in such activities. The studios will to a certain extent push illegal downloads. Personally if it goes to hd downloads I will not purchase any more movies, I will be done! I have no problem of downloads suplementing or replacing rentals. But I do not see it as a value to collectors like ourselves that love to collect movies. Movies on a phyiscal media are collectable and can be worth something down the line. A movie downloaded onto a hard drive is basically worthless. I have no doubt that downloaded movies can look every bit as good as phyiscal media. But personally even if downloads begin to match physical media on audio/video quality. I am still not interested in it being a primary delivery system! I like many here purchase movies for collecting, what use is downloaded movies for collectors?

Can you imagine hearing someone say, "wow this guy has the orignial planet of the apes in its original theatrical presentation I wonder how much he will sell it for". It will never happen as downloads will not be worth anything. We will not have any artwork or disc that we can hold in our hands. It will be trapped on that hard drive and god forbid that drive take a dump because there goes all your movies. And while they now have terybyte hard drives, how many movies do you think one can fit on a hard drive that size with full 1080p video resolution and lossless audio? Its another step backwards and begins to smell alot like what happened with CD audio de-evolving into mp3's.

So if the studios want to play a game with Blu-ray and not support it fully so they can push hd downloads. Then this customer is going bye bye and they will not get any of my money! I would still feel the same way even if HD-DVD had won the format war. IMHO this site should throw its full support behind physical media and let the studios know that downloads or ok but do not mess with physical media!

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

At this stage, I see downloads as more of a threat to the rental market than anything. I believe physical media will continue to thrive for may years to come, however, I don't believe Blu-ray will ever become the phenomena that regular dvd became. Polls still state that mainstream consumers are saying "what's wrong with regular dvd". Now that the format war is over, studios will have a very difficult task convincing consumers to upgrade thier dvd collections in a fragile economic climate. Blu-ray may turn out to be a luxury item that most consumers just can't afford to invest in when regular dvd suits them just fine.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

You could have made the same argument against DVD back in the first two years. It took 3 years to get LOA, it took 2 1/2 years to get any Disney animated classics, it took about 7 years to get the original Star Wars trilogy, 3 years to get Jaws and CE3K, etc. Actually, most of the catalog titles released in the first couple of years of DVD were simply ports from old LD transfers. History is simply repeating itself.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Amen.

In fact, things are actually progressing more quickly with HDM. Already Warner, Sony, and Universal got slammed early on for recyling inferior masters off the shelf, and we're seeing a few classics (like CE3K) hit HDM sooner than they emerged on DVD. Certainly nothing like the multi-disc Blade Runner set appeared on DVD until years after the format had matured.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Jeff- difference is VHS wasn't simply a lower res form of DVD - nor had that many people compiled vast collections of pre-records the way they have done with DVD. You can't simply say this is how it always works. A closer analogy would be LD which at DVDs intro WAS the collectors medium. WIthin 3 years there was a drastic phasing out of LD new releases by the major studios until DVD was the only optical disc game in town.
I agree downloads are going to impact the rental market most...but I think that mass consumer tastes are going to shift away from owning large collections of media that don't get watched often, anyway.The convienence of being able to get any of a thousand titles without having to wait days or make a trip when gas is $5-6 a gallon will have a lot of appeal.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Actually, I think either analogy is bad because unlike LD or VHS, people can still play their SD DVDs on BR players. Right now, it appears our discussions keep going around in circles because we're doing nothing but espousing our opinions about the future of HT, when in actuality we have little idea what's going to happen because neither HDM or Downloads has mature enough to get an accurate picture of the future just yet. We just have to wait and see what really happens in the coming years with not only those video formats, but other factors such as the economy and any unknown issues we're not able to properly forecast quite yet.






Crawdaddy

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

yes I feel a nagging sense of deja vu- and my apologies for my contributions to it.
I still can't get the exhortation to "rally behind the format" out of my head. Maybe someone should draft a manifesto on the subject that we can then all whittle and hew down to a basic list of points that should be implimented by Bd content producers and/or distributors. I just don't think its enough to drift with the current and believe it will invariably lead us to the ocean without sending us into the banks or into a mass of flotsam and wreckage. Without stronger motivators (title selection and price are two...but not the only two) where is the incentive to adopt going to come from?
I really think some things will have to be forced the same way AR and 16:9 enhancement were on DVD. And BTW, AR was another early, major form/format distinction between VHS and DVD. Yet another distinction Bd lacks.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Downloads aren't the future that the studios dream about. Streaming media is. Don't worry about your hard drive crashing because you won't be storing your own movies at all -- they'll be making you pay anytime you want to watch something (on the other hand, there'll probably be Netflix-style plans where you pay a fixed amount to watch whatever you want within certain time or number limits).

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

Now, we're talking.

That was really my point (more or less) all along although I didn't lay out any specifics like petitions and such. Do something more productive than merely bitching on here to *us* about how BD is doomed, if you really want BD to succeed (at least to be more than just an LD-like niche). The doomsaying does nothing good, but may well scare off people while annoying many others of us.

Nobody here has been saying nothing needs to be done at all. Yes, the prices need to come down. Yes, the studios and CE companies need to promote the format big time. And really, these are things they also *had* to do for DVD too though I'll agree they probably need to do more (or go faster) this time around, if they really want mass adoption. And some of us believe the studios and CE companies will do these things to varying degrees over time -- and we also vary on how successful they might be. But no doubt they could probably use a little kick in the butt from us enthusiasts just in case they move along much too slowly (or not enough).

STILL, you gotta remember it's only been a couple months since the format war ended. It's a bit unfair to be so very down on the situation so soon. But yes, if you believe we need to act quickly and run off some petitions and such to get them listening and moving more quickly (and to greater degree), by all means, go for it. I'll most certainly sign the petitions and do whatever reasonable to help out...

_Man_

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Huh? I never said I'm fine w/ it remaining niche as in LD-like niche -- I specifically said I won't be happy w/ that more than once before. Where did I say I'm fine w/ anything like that?? I did say earlier I'd be fine if the pricing trend I'm seeing now continues, but what I see is a gradual price reduction over time (much like it was for DVD though I don't expect it to get to the bargain bin pricing level we're seeing, eg. $3-6 sales every week at CC, BB, Walmart). If the trend continues over time (w/ say $15-20 new releases and then some price reductions say after the first year or so of release, but not to the level of bargain bin pricing), I'm perfectly fine w/ that. And yes, I'm assuming that the release slate will improve substantially over time much like it did for DVD. Also, yes, I'm assuming these things won't keep up unless the market does grow well beyond the tiny niche that LD was -- it'll eventually need to become semi-mainstream (or whatever one wants to call it).

Ok. Maybe you're not the one specifically calling BD doomed, but plenty of others apparently are. Well, as far as I understand it, doomed does more or less equal LD-like niche I guess -- at least that seems to be the working definition for most here when it comes to talk of "doomsaying".


Ok. Then be a realist. If you've accepted the situation and are fine w/ it, then why constantly bitch about it?? You don't have to be cheerleading, etc. But do you really have to be bitching about it a few times a day everyday on this forum?? It's not like *we* forum readers are the studios and CE companies. All that pointless bitching is what I don't get. And if you really want things to change, why not try something more productive perhaps (as I asked before)? Maybe start a petition or something -- that's surely better than constantly bitching to *us* over here, no?

But I should say that when I said "you", I don't necessarily mean you personally, but the general you as in the collective group of doomsayers (and/or whatever you guys want to call yourselves).


Sigh... Alrighty, I guess you're right then since you can't be convinced to do anything else about it other than bitch on here and can't be convinced to give the situation some time to work itself out some more. Like others have said, this thing is just gonna keep going in circles because we really don't know what tomorrow brings at this point. It's really still too soon to know. And we can all opine all we want about how things are going and where we're headed, but it really don't mean a thing. Only thing it'll probably do is annoy some folks and scare away some others, IMHO...

_Man_

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

I don´t courage anyone to "steal" anything. I was talking about myself (and myself only) and the *worse outcome* of this physical media vs downloading "war" that lies ahead (at least if you listen companies like MS and such). IF (and that´s a BIG "if" at this point) I can´t get films in a proper physical media, then I have to seek "other sources". And yes, I won´t pay for those sources, that´s for sure.

(well, rental is a different issue obviously - and movie theatres/TV-channels)

Like I said, it´s up to the studios. If they want to "kill" the physical media completely (I don´t claim that it´ll happen at this point, though), they´ll make a huge mistake. It´ll drive many people to seek those "other sources", even those that are perfectly willing to pay for SD DVD and Blu-ray-releases. For some people, "Blu-ray for the masses" is just a pipe-dream. But, "downloading for the masses" (like it would make the same kind of money like SD DVD/Blu-ray in physical media) is even a bigger one.

I fully understand if downloading/streaming is "one option" for people (mainly for rentals). But from a collector's point of view, it means *nothing*. Nothing.

And sadly, this "downloading"-issue seems to be just another "excuse" for the bitter people that lost their format in this "war"..

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

Agree with all these points.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

It's a point that has been made often and maybe, it's time to let it go? Otherwise, we might be promoting it's continue existence. Whatever happens with HDM and downloads, it will happen in due time without us becoming so emotionally invested in their promotion. One thing this latest format war has proven is that corporate entities and not HT enthusiasts decide the future of video formats. Sure, we might give them some marketing data, but business alliances are the ones that actual make the decisions about the video industry. We are nothing but another tool in that process. We all need to relax a bit and just enjoy what we have as far as home entertainment. Let's not fall for the same trap again in which we fight among ourselves and cause more major divides among the HT enthusiast group. We're small in numbers and we can't afford to be too fragmented as the rest of society kind of view us as oddballs anyway.






Crawdaddy

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

True. We "oddballs" should stick together now.

Blu-ray might be the last physical format that we´re going to get. If it fails, it´s "bye bye" movie collecting. At least in the sense that we have learned to "collect" movies over the years.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

Well I don't know about where you live, but in my town Cox had automatically bumped everyone with high speed cable up to the highest bandwidth service. So if you have cable, you have the highest speed available.

Now Phoenix is a town were Cox tends to test these things out so it maybe something that will go system wide for them in the future. Who knows if this will be a trend that will extend to other cable providers.

At this point for me downloading an image files of a blu-ray disc would be a matter of an over night thing. Again I don't care if it is a download as long as I have the right to make at least one physical copy like I do when I download songs from itunes, and the quality is consistent with existing blu-ray releases.

Doug

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

Someone should tell the RIAA about itunes which allows you to do exactly what she says violates their copywrites.

Doug

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

We're doomed....DOOMED!

-Doctor Smith in Lost in Space

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

Ultimately the market will go where the general public wants it to go. The studios can't really force downloads if downloads don't sell. If the general public decides that downloads are convenient and a good value then they will take off.

The reason the music industry has gone toward downloads is NOT because they wanted it. The Music industry has gone kicking and screaming in that direction, but they had to because people stopped buying CDs in huge numbers. I really suspect that this was more a matter of perceived value than anything else. When I can buy an album on CD for $20 dollars or more at the store, or download it for $9 from itunes, what do you think most people are going to do.

The proof against downloads will be if the public sees physical media as a good value. If people think that it is over priced and lacks quality content, then it is clearly doomed.

Doug

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

Can I get an "Amen"?

This kind of stuff is the primary discussion in the hi-def forums. It doesn't end. Even threads on other subjects, have an annoying habit of circling back to one version or another of this topic.

I spent some time over the past two weeks, over in the SD forum. It was so damn refreshing to hear enthusiastic, even passionate talk about movies again. New editions of discs are still being released, some that will take years to see the light of day in HDM, and people are still enthusiastic about them. The SD market will be/is the first area to fall to the advance of downloads and VOD, but that doesn't seem to be a primary discussion/obsession in that forum.

Maybe I'm blind to it, having spent nearly two years, exclusively in the hi-def forums, but there seems to be a guiding spirit of love for film and home theater in those forums, that has to a large extent been abandoned here in favor of never ending clamor about manipulations by multi-national corporations, and talk about market penetration and price points.

This entire mind-set has taken away much of the enthusiasm I had when HDM first hit the marketplace. I've noticed stretches of two or three days, when there aren't any new threads here, just added posts to a couple such this one. Is that all we're about anymore?

What the hell. Maybe I should keep my mouth shut, and start spending more time in the SD forums. This one is getting dry and tedious.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

Oops...my reply got inserted into Crawdaddy's quote. It begins with "Can I get an 'Amen'". Sorry about that! If a mod can correct, or even delete it, that would be fine with me.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

The bigger issue in the music industry is being able to buy a song you like for $1 or less, rather than having to buy a $20 album. The music moguls essentially torpedoed their own industry when they stopped issuing physical singles in the 1990's. Once the technology advanced enough for fans to swap the songs they wanted electronically online (via Napster, etc.), it was all downhill from there. Their "embrace" of digital downloads is simply a last ditch effort to try and reclaim some of that market that they themselves abandoned.

If you don't deliver entertainment options in the formats that people want, they'll probably find a way to get it anyway (legal or not). The studios would do well to learn from the history of the music biz before they eliminate any popular physical media options.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

Amen, brother.

I advocated, many pages ago, that this thread had run its course and could be closed. I was rebuffed however, by those who wanted to continue the conversation.

To my mind, however, this thread--indicative of many others in the HD section--continued the merry-go-round discussions of downloads vs. physical media, what led to the result of the BD win of the format war (even more HD-DVD vs. BD debate!), and the speculative future of the home video industry.

I surely considered unsubscribing to this (admittedly popular) thread as I felt as if the conversation was going nowhere, but quickly. I decided, however, to "stay tuned" as I figured I might gain some insight into the industry.

But I agree whole-heartedly with your assertions, David, about the SD forum and how this endless debate about the industry has not yet overwhelmed the discussion about the product that we enjoy. And to be fair, there are still many threads/reviews in the HD forum which provide the same satisfaction for HD product.

But rather than going-on with what amounts to nothing more than a thread-fart I suppose, I will probably go ahead and unsubscribe and spend my HTF time in other pursuits.

Have at it friends!