**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106* - Page 126

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

China has been fertile ground for hdtvs. There are a lot of poor people but there are a lot of people doing well. Also the government is actively pushing hd. It seems to be fertile ground for hd media.

I would point out that blu-ray does not have a deep reservoir of support in the US or Europe. Bluray won in the US because Sony bought more media companies than Toshiba did. It didn't win because a huge amount of people went out and bought bluray. Neither format made deep inroads in the US or Europe. The hd market is still wide open.

The world does not revolve around the US or Europe. The entire Asian region is growing faster than the US or Europe. India is a hotbed of growth. As a result, there are many avenues to push hd.

The difference is that I'm not interested in getting rid of bluray. I believe in competition. Competition gives more innovation at lower costs. I am looking at having a choice. People who want bluray can buy bluray and people who want something different can get that.

Again there is no question that Paramount botched the War of the Worlds disc. My concern is that I don't believe that a company like Paramount would bother to fix the mess that they created for a hd release. A movie does not automatically look better because its on hd.

Also found this little item at N4G.com.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

I don't know where you're getting your data, but China is far from a "fertile ground" for HDTV. Not only is their economic situation vis-a-vis HDTV at something like 20% of the US, but they're about 4 years behind the US in every aspect of adoption. Depending on them for saving HD DVD is a lost cause.
You're mistaking GDP-level growth with per capita growth. While countries like India may be pulling in more money, the vast majority of it is going to a small percentage at the top.
I don't believe this for a second. If you really wanted competition, you'd be have been arguing against DVD and VHS, both of which depended as much (if not more) on the studios and consumer electronics world to determine success. Indeed, we would have had a format war in 1997, had Warner not done exactly what they did in January, only back then, it was with Toshiba.
I find it odd that someone who loves to go on about BD's profiles and cry wolf about obsolescence would look towards a tech that would do the exact same thing to DVD. Unless, of course, you actually believe all of that DVD 2.0 nonsense could be done on the billions of existing DVD players with nothing more than a firmware upgrade.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Blu-ray player prices have not gone up in the last few months. MSRP has been the same on all available models. What has changed is the sale price by retailers. Simply put, the holiday and Super Bowl discounts have ended.

Of course, when the promotions were going on, the complaint was that Blu-ray had to "give away" players to be successful.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Properly mastered, virtually any film (even 16mm stock) will look more failthul to the original in HD than in SD.

Improper mastering can affect all media everwhere, including 35mm release prints.

(this is not disagreeing with you that it would be a shame if Paramount simpy used the current HD master for that title for BD with out fixing the contrast-issue in those particular scenes).

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

Really? Exactly what do you mean?

If it´s "Blu-ray vs downloading/HDTV-channels" or something (or "will Blu-ray be adopted by the masses?"), there are some "open issues" for sure, but if you mean Chinese HD-formats or some mysterious "new formats" that´ll arrive to compete with Blu-ray, you´re really living in your dream-world..

Blu-ray is our HD-format now, when it comes to that psychical optical media. That´s a fact Francis. You just have to deal with that fact in your own way (I guess you´re doing that, though..). HD DVD won´t be coming back (but you can of course enjoy your players/films for the years to come).


Of course the world is not revolving round the US or Europe, but China is pretty much the only country in Asia with their "own HD-format" (if CH-DVD is still alive?). Others have (more-or-less) Blu-ray (and DVD, perhaps still VCD) like the rest of us.

Like I said, China plays by their own rules. Not even with the "general rules of Asia" or something. It´s still ruled by the Chinese Communist Party. That alone says a lot.

HD DVD was very niche in e.g. Japan long before the "official end" of the format war, US won after Toshiba decision and Europe followed US (it doesn´t have any choice in these type of issues, I´m afraid). In the countries like Korea and Hong Kong, Blu-ray is gaining ground (they´ve some exclusive releases also). I´ve no idea of India (which indeed is a "fast growing economy").

Of course there are huge countries like China and Russia (also South-America as a whole), but you only have to look at the DVD-markets in there to see what´s going on. China and Russia might be rich now and big players in many areas, but they´re very much behind when it comes to DVD/HD-markets (quite frankly, they probably don´t care that much of those areas of business). People doesn´t buy the official DVD-releases that much (at least compared to the other countries), since piracy is a common thing. Those countries might keep some new HD-formats (like CH-DVD) alive, but only in their own country.

Big Hollywood-studios pretty much control the rest. They started the "format war" and they also ended it.

You really have to wake up for reality.


You could´ve fooled me.


Of course. Totally. But the choices are not that "wide" as you try to imply. HD-downloading? HDTV-channels? HD DVD (still kicking for a while)? Or go back to SD DVD? Or just use DivX and similar stuff from the net?

If you want to talk about some other "choices", they have to be "real choices", not some Chinese formats that 5 "hardcore anti-BD"-people are willing to buy.

Just out of curiosity; Do you buy Blu-ray-titles now? Ever?

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Why????

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

There are some doubts about the source of that info!


Cees

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

If there's any truth to that rumor (strange that no other reliable source has confirmed yet), the reasons could be:

1. Toshiba makes money off of DVD royalties.
2. MS makes money off of HDi royalties and the OP systems that hardware needs installed to run it.

Certainly we've seen Toshiba push DVD over HDM in their latest "upconversion identical to HD" claims. Though that doesn't imply that they are pushing for a new DVD spec (more likely they are just using upconversion as a way to keep pushing SD DVD).

I doubt that a new DVD spec would have much traction. The new features wouldn't work on any regular DVD players, and folks aren't going to replace their DVD hardware for a few discs that have such features.

Think about it: we already have interactive DVD-ROM features on many DVD titles and CD-enhanced discs. But that's never been enough of a motivation for the consumer to demand players that can access such features... you just play your DVD or CD in your computer when you want to see that stuff. It seems that basically what this new DVD profile would be is making every DVD player into a PC in terms of accessing DVD-ROM material. That's a lot of cost overhead for all hardware for very little return from a consumer point of view... given that they can just use their PC/laptop if they want to see those features.

Even were a new DVD spec established, the major studios will be focusing on Blu-ray for BD-Live and other enhanced features as part of a marketing tool over SD DVD. It's what the major studios will do that will determine what does and doesn't happen even were a new DVD spec to be approved.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

"Analysts Discuss the Impact of Blu-ray on the Industry at the CDSA Confab"

Jim Bottoms' (co-managing director of Understanding & Solutions) "consumer con" comment will rally some and roil others.

". . . [T]he studios need to decide how long Blu-ray remains a value-added proposition and how long before it should replace DVD."

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

It will never replace DVD unless 80-90% of the general public buys a HDTV at the very least.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

I guess Blu-ray won´t be integrated to Xbox 360 after all:

(Microsoft 'not in talks' with Sony over Xbox 360 Blu-ray drive - Joystiq)

"Xbox is not currently in talks with Sony or the Blu-ray Association to integrate Blu-ray into the Xbox experience."

Also here:
Microsoft says no Blu-ray for Xbox 360 | Special Coverage | Reuters

**

..and some comments from MS (about downloading):

Microsoft dismisses Blu-ray as "historic phenomenon" // GamesIndustry.biz

"While Microsoft's belief in the long term potential of downloadable content over physical storage media is well documented, Lewis claimed that, despite Blu-ray's victory, the shift away from discs will happen "sooner than any of us think".

"That's the future direction, and I think that's going to be the case in the next 12-18 months," he predicted. "I think we're going to be talking much more about that than anything else. Do I think that this Christmas will somehow be defined by DVD playback? I genuinely don't think that will be the case. I do not think that [the demise of HD DVD] will have any material impact on our console velocity. And I think other factors, specifically our architecture around downloads, is far more advantageous and important for the future."

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

I don't agree with the above.

IMHO, a physical, portable disc with all the HD information for one movie and a case with "artwork" for storage, will always be my preference instead of downloads.

Paul

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

I don't know.

It reads almost like a threat against physical media. I guess we'll see come Christmas time.

I really hope we don't end up w/ a Blu-ray vs download/VOD war in 2009. I will be *reeeeally* pissed at Micro$oft (and possibly Toshiba), if that happens. I don't mind if download/VOD eventually replaces DVD at the bargain pricing and rental end of the market, but I don't want to see BD/HDM go back toward LD-like niche. I mean I guess many of us can (barely) live w/ that outcome, but most of us certainly won't be happy w/ that.

_Man_

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

mine too. But that doesn't excuse the fact that Sony is busily putting its own 'architechture' in place for a transistion to the download future- the PS3. I kind of tend to think that is why they are being so bullish on Bd, despite all evidence of overwhelming consumer apathy towards high quality (and relatively low cost) 1080p HDMs 2 years in. The PS3 WAS obviously designed to be powerful and flexible enough to be a solution to many future 'problems'. I have little doubt Sony wants to control downloads as much (or more obviously) than MS ever did.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

I'm not saying Sony isn't looking to the future of downloads, but I find the idea that the PS3 is a trogan horse once more a bit odd. You do realize that Microsoft's console is not only capable of the same thing, but has actually had HD movie downloads for the last 2 years over Xbox Live?

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it's no secret that every studio would prefer downloads for better control of their content and even now are using and perfecting the lossless audio codecs of Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA, which are desperately needed as compression tools along with video codecs, that compete for HDM-content storage space on hard drives and for faster download transfers.
Audio codecs are an unneeded option for Blu-ray Discs which are more than capable of delivering lossless multichannel PCM with pure 24-bit lossless audio on every title - now.

Again:

An HD movie and a case with "artwork" for storage, will always be my preference instead of downloads.

Paul

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Yes, downloads isn't just a MS thing... all the studios like the idea of download/VOD. Sony is gearing towards this as are others.

If you want to blame anyone if/when downloads/VOD grows in popularity, blame the people who want it and buy into it. People like the convenience of downloads and don't necessarily want/need the physical media. iTunes (and it's competition) are doing well and will continue to grow for music sales. I personally will only buy the physical CD/SACD with higher quality and will never pay for downloads - but I can't stop others from doing so.

VOD is where everything is heading, like it or not, it'll take some time obviously. I don't think physical media will be dead, but it might be relegated to a small market than it is now.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

You're right of course that it's not just a M$ thing. BUT if they bring it on in the very near future in a way akind to a format war against Blu-ray, then I certainly have somebody to blame. It all depends on what exactly they do w/ it.

_Man_

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

well, we'll just have to see of course- but I for one, can easily envision a day several years in the future where the total number of unique Bd titles available in still under 1500 and then Sony opens shop with its premium download marketplace offering half that overnight. So now that there is only one optical HD format, is content still king? Cause I don't see studios anxious to flood the markets with Bd content today or anytime soon. So we are more tha likely looking at a niche format that supplies only a cursory amount of product for the majority of its lifespan...because everyone from the studios to the posters here know that the masses value convienence over quality and a mass market delivery system (unlike Bd) is what is going to get the studios enthusiastic enough to open their floodgates (especially a system that can offer a better way of tracing pirates back to the source as well as maintaing personal info on viewing habits, opportunities for direct marketing , etc). I just get annoyed when "M$" is the one singled out as the potential mustache twirling villan here.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Now that MS has made public their motivation for advancing the cause of downloading without regard to supporting an HDM disc experience, I'm wondering if all the folks who accused Bill Hunt, Dan Ramer and other industry insiders of being conspiracy-theorists have realized that those folks were in fact correct.

I still see lots of Bill-bashing going on in various threads despite the fact that events have born out most of what he said to be correct all along. It seems so strange to vilify the folks who tried to warn enthusiasts of the truth of what was really going on.


So once we get confirmation that MS was indeed after downloading like many of us said, now the answer is to cast doubt about Sony's intensions for supporting disc-based HD media? With certainty EVERYONE ( Sony, Fox, Disney, MGM, Universal, Paramount, everyone) will embrace downloading when it's viable. However, you can also rest assured that the BDA and the studios will not stop pushing Blu-ray Disc. There's money to be made both ways, and the two media channels serve very different needs. The two streams of distribution do not negate each other. Only MS wants to see HDM disc media fade away since the only way they can make money is via downloading (everyone else can make money both ways).

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Wrong. People accused MS of supporting HD-DVD for the reason of killing HDM. That's still a conspiracy theory. MS wanting to capitalize on downloading is a no-brainer - we always knew that. There's nothing that says MS can't try to hedge their bets and get their feet in both arenas - it's smart business. They won't make as much money supporting HD-DVD, but that doesn't mean they didn't want it to succeed. Sony's doing the same thing with their push towards downloads and wants to beat MS to the punch. The only difference is that Sony wants to sell people the same movie again on Blu-Ray first, and then sell it again via download.

Phil Harrison has stated that he envisions the PS4 to be discless, so that tells us Sony's intention towards physical media.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

I don't really have a problem of with downloads as long as they make an image file of everything that would be on a blu-ray for instance, and I have the option to burn it to a disc or put it on a flash drive that a player can read.

This is going on now with music albums where you can download the whole thing and burn it to disc.

I would however prefer some kind of product/delivery system that I can goto a store and buy. I don't really care what form that delivery system takes.

Doug

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Well, do we actually have any *real* clue when the PS4 is coming?

The *fact* remains we have BD *now*. And that's what Sony (and the other studios and CE companies) have *now*. The format is still very new and has only been freed from the obstacle of a format war for all of about 2 months -- and yet, we still regularly get all this doomsaying going on (and from supposed enthusiasts no less, rather than just people w/ an axe to grind).

Look. I can understand if this is year 3 since the format war ended, and we still don't see much going on w/ BD. But com'on already. It's month #3 since the war officially ended, and yet, we hear nothing but a lot of wailing and weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It sure sounds like some of y'all *want* BD to fail no matter what you claim, IMHO.

I have no problem w/ people wanting to be "realistic" and all that, but some of this is *not* realistic, but downright cynical. And I thought we are supposed to be "enthusiasts" here as in:


And yes, I trust that the meaning carries a positive connotation, not negative.

Sigh...

If people want to be "realists" rather than so called "naive" or "too optimistic", shouldn't there still be better ways to channel your "enthusiasm" in a more productive way than bitch about this and that all day long?? I really don't get this...

_Man_

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Well said. Keep in mind that Microsoft doesn't own any content. They have nothing to stream to you. They rely on the media companies to supply the content. Just like MS hedged their bets so are the media companies. Does the fact that Disney and Lionsgate are suppling HD content to XBOX live mean they are trying to get BD to fail? of course not. They are just trying to cover all segments of the market. Some people may prefer the download model, I don't and will buy the BDs over any download. So what if MS isn't supporting BD for their XBOX360. They probably looked at the numbers and decided it didn't make sense. Any XBOX360 owner who wants to watch a BD can buy a standalone player (or if they are a gamer they may already have a PS3 in addition to their XBOX360)

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Roll your eyes at the Sony guy, not me. It's his vision.


You claim to be fine if Blu-Ray remains a niche. Some (including me) say that it's very likely to be that way. Then you call them doomsayers. So in your opinion is niche = doom? So you're not OK with it being a niche product? I don't understand. Where exactly are people spreading doom?


This coming from someone who types "M$".


There goes the eye-rolling again. You should see an eye-doctor.

You can be an enthusiast of something and remain realistic. I knew from the start that SACD (and all hi-rez audio) wouldn't be a mass-market product despite others saying it would. I'm still buying SACDs even though it's relegated to a miniscule niche. Are we supposed to be cheerleading and smiling and pretending that everything is 100% perfect?


This forum is dedicated to HDM (more specifically Blu-Ray since the victory). At this point in it's life the health of the format is a major topic of conversation, as is the future of it. Along with the positives, people can discuss the market realities as well. You have a choice to ignore threads or posts dealing with this topic.

<--- a gratuitous eye-roll for you.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

It may still be his vision, but he's no longer "the Sony guy". Phil Harrison resigned from Sony.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

I am an enthusiast. I'm a film enthusiast. What format that film arrives in is, with in some limitations, irrelevant to me.

Doug

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

I agree. He has been more or less "correct" all along (with his "inside information" also), even when people can´t always agree with his "tone" when he writes (which I partly understand). I keep checking his site in daily basis and continue to do so.


Good point. Downloading is coming (already here in some degree), that´s for sure. And it can of course be that one option among the many. But companies "doomsdaying" psychical media (like MS, it seems) are not worth defending. They want downloading, fine. But they also want the death of Blu-ray and probably also SD DVD (yep).

If there´s one thing where we all should be very vocal and firm, is that we should support psychical media in HD/SD over downloading in every possible way. Perhaps that´s the only thing, where we all can actually agree at this point (after bitter war and all that)?

Btw. Link to the Reuters article ("Microsoft says no Blu-ray for Xbox 360"):
Microsoft says no Blu-ray for Xbox 360 | Special Coverage | Reuters

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

I for one am not surprised that MS is pushing downloads. And now MS has come out and confirmed what many have been saying all along. I agree that downloads have there place and will happen. But I do not think that they will or should replace physical media. While many of us have disagreed over the format war, I am sure most of us can agree that we want physical media.

Personally I will not spend money on HD downloads and will spend my money on HD content on physical media. Another thing that I feel should concern us all is that it would be very easy for studios to control how many times we can watch a title. I fear that HD downloads may end up turning into a pay per view senario. While it may not happen right away, it could allways happen later on once they get people used to downloads. I also do not agree that downloads are anymore secure that physical media. Downloads will most likely prove to be more vulnerable to hacking and will end up being destributed across the internet with in days of being released.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

You guys do know why the studios loooooove downloads right? No secondary market. Every legit owner paid current retail pice to the studio. Fewer sales and markdowns. Monopoly access. No more BOGOs cause you arent playing amazon against walmart against best buy.

WORST for me is that I cant resell the ones I didnt like! And I cant loan out the ones I loved to those I want to share with. And when you die? So do your licenses. Your heirs get JACK S#%@.

With my dvd and CD collections if I get hit by a bus tomorrow my nephews get a nice bundle of packaged media. All the tunes I purchased on itunes go into the wind with me tho.

A lot of people clearly havent thought this whole download thing through all the way (but the studios have!). It does have SOME benefits to the consumer but they are false economies in many ways from a big picture mindset.