**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106* - Page 125

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

More arguing in circles than taking shop, methinks.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

Plenty of Corporate evils out there, believe me, I'm no fan of MS either.
But never had any issues with the Toshiba brand, even going back to their excellent Beta machines.

As for Sony, I got off that hype express long ago, as everything Sony I ever owned died before it's time (and costs twice as much to fix and twice as much to re-place when compared with the competition) so if that makes me bias against Sony so be it.

When ever I buy into Blu ray is not going to be Sony, most likely Panny, another brand I never had any issues with.


Because I'm interested in the 'aftermath' of the war and how it will affect my future as far as HDM goes, besides I didn't boycott HDM, HDM boycotted me!!


We are not debating the 'war' here , but the results of it, and I don't see anything wrong in debating this issues brought about by the capitulation of Toshiba and HD_DVD.( but I'm not the administration either).

Since you're the one expressing dissatisfaction with this thread, perhaps it is you Sir who has blundered accidentally into the wrong section??

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

I was tempted to reply a few times in the last several days, but have now adopted that setiment. It's all pretty pointless now. I would *not* really consider the few posters "trolls", but it's probably best to treat such posts as such anyway -- I'll gladly engage them in other kinds of discussions of course. And so goes the saying, "Don't feed the trolls".

Let's get back to enjoying movies (or shall we start arguing over whether they should be called "films" instead? )...

Cheers!

_Man_

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

I've now moved beyond the war... I want to see this thread hit 100k views!

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

I thought this thread was done over 5 pages ago. It keeps going in circles. I just got home from work, funny that the posts of today, look just like the ones from the weekend.
Anyone who wants to add me to ignore, its OK, i understand.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

It's a valid point. Ever since the VHS format caught the interests of consumers, the home video format has always been a mainstay of family entertainment. When Sony created the CD and DVD format I think they had in their minds to introduce a new format without giving consumers time to consume the new media.

Since the I.E., "Format War" is over there remains one problem. Sony wants to replace the Standard DVD format with Blu Ray. Since many homes have barely busted into the DVD format, just getting away from the VHS format, the DVD technology has barely caught up with consumers.

It's not resentment that I have over the High Def format it's resentment over Sony for not giving the SD format time to adjust to the market. Even the Standard Definition format isn't totally compatible with Blu Ray technology. Sony has even admitted to the fact that a majority of 'standard DVD's are compatible for Blu Ray.' This couldn't be further from the truth since only about 80% of DVD's produced now or previously are compatible with Blu Ray players.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

What in the world are you talking about????????????





Crawdaddy

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

It´s not "be all...and end all", but when it comes to 1080p high definition in *physical optical media*, it´s our format for the YEARS to come. Of course we don´t fully know how "successful" it´s eventually going to be and will those "masses" start supporting it (like they did with SD DVD). But if you want HD in physical optical media, Blu-ray is the choice.

I´ve said this before, but people are either "in" or "out" now in some ways. You support Blu-ray or you don´t. To me it´s that simple. You don´t *have to* support the format if you don´t want to. You´ve a choice - like you always had a choice.

I don´t see how *ANY* of this is e.g. Sony´s fault, since several companies/parties started this thing called "format war" and in "war" usually the other party loses. We all took the gamble and some people also tried to "warn" the other people (in e.g. this forum many many times): It might be just "your format" that´s going to lose. It was never realistic to believe that "both" are going to survive. Never.

Sure, people have the full right to be angry, bitter, cheated and all that, but blaming e.g. "Sony" for everything is beyond ridiculous.


Sure, I understand your point. And I´m glad that I milked those Blu-ray BOGO-sales dry before Xmas..

But I don´t miss the "war talk" (hell, it´s still going on, though) and that stupid s**t surrounding it.

The thing is, that since HD DVD is not totally "dead" (some releases are still coming, old-titles are "on sale" etc), there are certain group of people still "clinging on" to these format war-issues. They´re still "fighting it" in some sense. And yes, with these "Sony is the blame", "Blu-ray is expensive", "HD DVD was superior" etc comments they kinda pull some of us (yes, also myself from time to time) with them.

I´m not saying that "bitter HD DVD supporters" are the blame for the recent debates e.g. in this forum, just that this s**t will never stop if we keep bringing these same, very tired arguments out in the open again and again.. And meaning both "camps". Also myself. I am no saint here.

But, when after (what, May?) there will be no new HD DVD-releases and the format will be offically "dead" (no new releases and no new players), the "last of the mohicans" will finally have to look in the mirror. Is it STILL about the formats - or films?

I mean, the films in 1080p HD won´t go anywhere. The quality won´t go anyewhere. The lossless audio won´t go anywhere. The interactive extras won´t go anywhere. In a matter of fact, we lost very little with the dead of HD DVD, if we look at the issues that we gain (one format, capacity, studios, etc). And yes, the prices are also coming down (not just "next moth" or something), eventually.

So yes, "in" or "out". Eventually that´ll the question. Resistance is just futile.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

I find this whole griping about price to be utterly bizarre. What people seem to be forgetting is that there are a number of manufacturers of Blu-ray players, all of whom want us to buy their product and not their competitors' product. Competition will take its natural course now, as one or other manufacturer will either undercut their rivals, or another will improve their product as a means of standing out from their rivals.

It's always been the same with home entertainment hardware; the product comes out at a relatively high price, in the hope that early adopters (and yes, Alfonso M, to answer your question it is 'adopters' not 'adoptors') will help them cover their initial high costs. If enough of the mass market finds the product to be worth that cost, so much the better. Prices then drop over time to entice more and more of the mass market to 'buy in' to that product, eventually settling at a point where the profit is maximised (i.e. prices drop, sales rise, but prices won't drop if they aren't generating extra sales; this is why I-Pods sell for a certain price, as the demand for them means that cutting prices won't generate extra sales). There is never a "rush to the bottom" as it doesn't make economic sense; it leaves no headroom for competiton, the mainstay of the market.

In short, Blu-ray hardware prices don't HAVE to drop to any particular figure RIGHT NOW that anyone wants to pull out of their hat; the cost of manufacturing players will drop over time as the market grows to accommodate economies of scale in the manufacturing process, and the manufacturers know they will have to cut prices in order to grow the market. If it doesn't happen quickly enough for a particular individual, then fine, vote with your wallet and sit it out until the price drops to a level that sits comfortably with your personal finances and the added value it would give you over DVD.

No-one is being forced to buy into Blu-ray, I certainly haven't yet, as the products on offer don't match my personal checklist of what I want from hi-def optical media (region-free, 7.1 analog outs, ability to play the few DVD-Audios I've got would be nice as well).

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

So you'd have preferred that no high-definition format be made available? I suppose you're also really upset by Toshiba which also seemed to think it was time to try to trump standard-definition with 1080p software (prior to their upconversion-is-good-enough-save-face speech)?



In case you hadn't been following the trends, DVD sales have been dropping... and I'm sure DVD's feelings won't be hurt if Blu-ray comes in along side it to offer 1080p to videophiles and the growing population of consumers equipped with HDTVs.


Well, you certainly answered the question of whether or not it was possible to keep FUD-spin going now that the format-war is over. I wasn't sure if it could be done... or at least done well... but your post proves that mind-boggling FUD can be invented in the most unlikely of ways as long as an imaginative mind is able to fabricate statements that bear no relationship to fact-based reality. Impressive!

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

There were 3 fees associated with dvd and they were much lower than bluray. Several small content owners have looked at bluray licensing fees and say it makes it almost impossible for small companies to release titles on bluray. Other formats have lower licensing fees. Hd-Vmd cost less than a dollar more than sd and ch-dvd has 1 mandatory licensing fee. Smaller companies have titles that I would like to see on hd.


Maybe you need to take a look at the cleaned up version that Paramount released on dvd. In the scene where the Martian warships first appear, the wires are so evident that the scene is laughable. It's obvious they changed something. I am sure that if the wires had shown up in theaters, the movie would have been laughed out of the theatres. I don't trust Paramount to fix it and if they use the same transfer for hd, it'll be an even bigger fiasco.

Actually the hd-dvd/bluray battle will be fought in China except ch-dvd, a cousin of hd-dvd, will be filling in for hd-dvd. Apparently the Chinese have taken the basic hd-dvd design and made some improvements in it that have lowered the costs. They will apparently start out at no more than $419, a price that was lower than Toshiba's initial starting price. What is interestiong is that many members of the BDA are part of the consortium that has worked with ch-dvd. That includes Sony.


I'm sure blu-ray's feelings won't be hurt if another hd format comes in along side to to offer 1080p and competition to videophiles and the growing population of consumers equipped with HDTVs.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Francis,

firstly the comments you replied to were in regard to hardware and software prices to the consumer, not even remotely touching on the issue you responded with. However, in clarification of your own comments, the key cost factor that has BD production higher than DVD for small studios isn't "liscensing", it's authoring and replciation costs which are indeed higher than with conventional DVD because of the new software tools/equipement required and the higher cost of BD manufacture. Both costs are already coming down and will continue to do so, just as they did with DVD which was also prohibitively expensive for small studios in the early years.


While an interesting discussion, that's a red herring if you're trying to link this somehow to high-definition. That transfer altered the contrast of the film which made the wires more visible because the image was much brighter than in the original film prints (ie, not a resolution issue). The original 35mm film prints have greater than 1920 x 1080 resolution yet didn't produce visible distraction with the wires. The standard-definition DVD (with only 720 x 480 resolution) makes them visible because of choices that the studio made during the film transfer and mastering process... decisions and process that could affect any image on any format.


What are you talking about? I thought we were talking about the disc-based high-definition format war having come to a close and the new competition frontier between high-def BD and standard-def DVD.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

And yet the small companies are starting to move to Blu-ray. Blue Underground, Starz, Image, Tartan, etc.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Criterion has already produced several test-disc Blu-ray titles in-house and is poised to enter the game. Their primary reason for waiting this long was to avoid the complications of a dual-format scenario. Expect to see them embrace BD more quickly than it took them to warm up to DVD (remember how long it took them to officially embrace DVD? And then remember how long it took them to finally support 16x9 anamorphic!?!).

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

Exactly, there are brand new BD releases coming from small companies for $10. Can't be that expensive to make.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

Alfonso that is my pleasure. You seem to be the one taking this thing personally how about getting some sun light and letting it go? All I see from you is antagonism towards people for going choosing blu ray, why? Blu ray Won, your arguments are old and have been rehashed over and over again.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

I.E.? Is that an internet shorthand I haven't learned? It seems like I come across a new one every day or so.



I've read an awful lot on this forum about the backward compatibility of HD hardware with SD discs and haven't read much, if anything, about SD discs not being able to play on Blu-ray players. Mark: as Robert asks, what are you talking about? What is the 20% of SD-DVDs that are incompatible with Blu-ray players?

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

So should I be playing SD discs on my HD-A2 instead of my PS3?

(I'm asking about the upconversion quality; not any foolish mumbo-jumbo about SD incompatibility with BD players.)

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

For those complaining about lack of BOGO sales, Amazon has a sale right now on a number of BDs. In some cases, up to 55% off.....which is equivalent to a BOGO in many cases. Not a bad deal considering this time of year is slow for sales in general.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

China has always been playing by their own rules in everything (human rights, anyone?) and piracy is a HUGE problem there. HUGE. I don´t have any official figures or anything here, but I doubt that even DVD is be making "real money" there (due the piracy and other issues - many people are still quite poor), let alone CH-DVD (or whatever the name is).

If (?) you somehow try to imply that China will "save" HD DVD (via CH-DVD) and eventually keep the dead format alive, you´re sadly mistaken. Hell, CD-DVD might have some success in China (it´s a huge country, after all) - but China alone. E.g. US and European countries will start ordering their films in China now, just because they "miss HD DVD" so much? That´s one serious pipe dream.

I can see the news-story:
Headline: "HD DVD fans moving to China"
Quote: "It´s a place where we can have some peace! Evil corporations can´t touch us there! Just us, CH-DVD and everlasting harmony. For us, HD DVD never died."

(okay okay, bad joke.. )

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

Good sale, but in BOGOs, you got e.g. "Die Hard" AND "Die Hard 2" for that $19.99 (roughly, at least). Now it´s $19.99 for "Die Hard" (decent price, though). So yes, I have to say that I miss BOGOs.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

For those still beholden to HD DVD only, there are a few copies of Bee Movie up on eBay right now that slipped through the cracks. One is currently going for $400 (with hours left to go), but I suppose that is a better use of $400 than buying a Blu-Ray player for some.

In all seriousness, I actually just ordered one final HD DVD, the German T2 Ultimate Edition. It looks like it's going to put the "interactive" trinkets that have been stuck on domestic BDs and HDs to shame. Should be a good indicator of what to expect in a year or so once developers have got the hang of BD-Live. Assuming the majority of the players on the market a year from now support BD-Live, of course *sigh*.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

I actually ordered that also. I´m not really sure why (since it still cost me around 45$ or something!), I guess it was just one of those "heat of the moment"-things. I probably thought that it´s one release I want to own for the extras etc, even if some super-SE will be released on Blu-ray later on..

Then again, perhaps it´s just some PR-hype and I won´t ever bother to watch those extras..

But yes, last HD DVD for me too. I even skip the sales from now on..

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

I had a $50 freelance job last weekend helping out an old customer from my now defunct shop, and I've been wanting T2 on HDM for some time. The Lionsgate release on Blu is weak, and has a lossy DTS-HD track like this disc. While I'm sure Van Ling is working on a killer Blu release that I will own, the insane amount of interactive features coupled with the likely collectible nature of it convinced me to get it on a lark.

The only HD-DVD I still own is The Eagles: Live From Melbourne, as I didn't think there was any guarantee of a Blu release, at least soon.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

If I can remember where I read those articles from I'll be glad to post them but as I stated before, Blu Ray Players don't play all SD DVD's and Blu Ray isn't the successor to the DVD format, it's just a high definition media format.

Personally, there's no way I would ever consider buying into the Blu Ray format. If it came down to DVD going the way of the dust I'd just download everything through other venues. My reasons are as follows:

1. The prices for Blu Ray hardware have consistantly gone up since HD-DVD bowed out of the race even when Sony stated that prices on Blu Ray would be more affordable if there were only one competing format. Sony has managed to snag a monopoly on the High Def market.

Check out the most recent prices on Blu Ray players: TG Daily - Blu-ray player prices hit 2008 highs as competition dwindles

2. Later this year, when the new BD Profiles come out, those new players will render current models obsolete, making certain features installed on new BD Disks unable to be used on previous models. With standard DVD players, you didn't have this problem to worry about since DVD players are never made obsolete and that just new models are released.

Sure, newer models of Blu Ray players are bound to be made but to drastically change future players that make previous models obsolete because of a drastic change to the way the player reads the disk is unfair to consumers and many agree with this.

Until Sony wises up, there is going to be even more confusion among consumers because if future Blu Ray players continue to make previous ones obsolete, it's just going to be the worst time for a consumer to purchase a Blu Ray player with the price factor also adding into the equation.

Most families don't have the $300-$800 to spend on a Blu Ray player and most aren't going to. For the average consumer, like myself, I won't spend more than $100 on a player. Anything higher than that just isn't worth the purchase price, especially for home entertainment and Sony has failed to see this time and time again. This was the biggest reason why Sony had a hard time selling PS3's for the $499.99 asking price for the PS3.

I don't claim to understand it but Sony treats the North American market like the Japanese one and you can't do that. The economies are totally different. With respect to home entertainment, consumers always bargain shop. I do it all of the time, looking for the best deal. But, until the prices for Blu Ray players and the software for them (movies, television shows) and the obsolete factor, Sony will continue to struggle getting those average consumers to buy the technology.

Currently, the only consumers buying into the Blu Ray format are those who can afford to spend $700 to over a thousand dollars on a high definition television set and who make middle income salaries, the tech saavy consumer. The majority of consumers that you see looking for home entertainment are those who are low income to slightly above minimum wage who will spend $200 to $300 for one of those HTIB systems.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p.

I'm not going to refute you post point by point because most of your reasons are valid, at least to you; however, the above is completely and utterly wrong.

Blu-ray players play all DVDs. The only possible exception is that no blu-ray player is currently region free.

(A North American Blu-ray player will be coded region 1 for DVD and Region A for Blu-ray etc.)

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Like Brian already pointed out, those articles were spreading completely false information/rumors. Don´t believe everything you read (and next time, it´s always good to add some proper sources).


Well, if everything´s going as planned, it´ll "replace SD DVD" someday. But of course, we don´t know that will this actually happen and if it happens, when. Saying that "it´ll" is as good/bad as "it won´t". We don´t know yet.

For the record, most of us enjoy both SD DVD and Blu-ray (HD DVD also) - rarely the "HD-oriented" people really "dislike SD DVD" or something like that. They just choose HD over SD DVD, IF that´s possible (many times it isn´t - you need to buy films in SD DVD and Blu-ray).

But yes, we´re (including myself! ) definitely going in circles now. Other camp wants to enjoy Blu-ray (=high definition) - and kinda leave the bitter talk behind - and other camp dislikes Blu-ray and/or generally high definition. Both wants to "be heard". I doubt that we´re really going anywhere with this talk..

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Blu-ray is not Sony.

Blu-ray is a product by the BDA which is made up of dozens of companies.

Panasonic makes players and prices them according to their own choice. So does Denon. So does Philips. So does Samsung. So does every hardware manufacture.



Agreed. So will you buy BD hardware when the new players are available? The PS3 will be updated to full BD-live (web features), by the way, so you can buy that today and you're covered if that's a concern.



Blu-ray is not Sony. The BDA makes decisions about the format. And hardware pricing happens to not be one of them... that's up to the individual companies making the players.

Re: **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

It´s futile, David. For the certain group of people, Blu-ray is Sony and Sony is evil. This won´t change in any time soon.. In the future, we´ll have players from the several other companies (now it´s mainly Sony and Panasonic).