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**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106* - Page 11

post #301 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Wow, what a day! I hadn't had a chance to peruse the usual news sources and forums today, and of all places, I found out about Paramount and Dreamworks' decision on USA Today's site!

My first reaction was just that, "wow." My second reaction was "this is big."

Enthusiast web sites are getting more traffic than they've seen in a while, fueling endless heated arguments, generating ads, and smoking web servers, all at the same time. That's a heck of a Monday.

I would love to see all studios be format neutral, and I'm probably going to be alone in this viewpoint, but I think the decision today brings us closer to that day.

The format war has done quite a bit for hardware features and prices. Who would have thought just six months ago that we could have $199 HD DVD players and $499 Blu-ray players? Without HD DVD's high functionality from the get-go, what do you think the chances are that we'd be seeing anything close to Profile 1.1 or 2.0 in Blu-ray players in the near future? I'm still not happy with where Blu-ray players are at, but I think they're further along than they would be without a competing format showing them how it can be done (and for cheaper).

Now, we may be seeing the format war heating up on the software side. Things were awfully lopsided on the studio leaderboard. Ignoring the fact that Fox was a Blu-ray studio mostly in press releases only, anyone the least bit familiar with high definition on optical discs probably heard that there were more studios on the Blu-ray side than on the HD DVD side. Blah, blah, blah.

What I see is this. Paramount and Dreamworks Animation, or more suitably, their big name movies, will provide the foot in the door that other studios needed to consider doing the same. I can see another studio following suit, but as much as I'd like it to be Disney, I don't think it will be either Disney or Fox. Someone smaller, maybe two.

Now the scales become much more balanced (if they aren't already).

Studios on both sides figure that there's not going to be an end to the war any time soon. Faced with the choice of 1) continuing to fight a stalemate, or 2) finding common ground and serving both sides, I think (hope) that they will choose #2.

That's the only scenario that has no outright losers. Manufacturers win because they can sell players that will play all the movies being released. Consumers win because they don't have to worry about not being able to play HD movies on they player they decide to spend their money on. Studios win because they can sell to consumers of both camps.

Sure, studios have to pay more money for producing two formats instead of one. Considering the incredibly low volumes of HD media sales right now, that's not a big hit to the bottom line in the big picture. I just don't think that it's that big a factor right now. In the future, yes, the production costs are going to matter when they're moving units approaching what we're seeing with DVD sales. But that day is a long way off and there's plenty of sales to make in the meantime.

Neutrality only works, however, when the cease fire is honored by everyone involved. All studios need to be neutral, even Sony, but it could probably work if there was a single holdout, because their non-participation would be so incredibly obvious that they would be shamed into it anyway.

I shake my head that downloads and some grand conspiracy by Microsoft even comes into the discussion. A lot of companies have their fingers in downloads, but none have succeeded, yet. Movielink has been around for years, but it hasn't taken off.

I think a majority of people want to watch movies on their couches in front of their TV's (displays, projectors, whatever), and until some device allows them to do that easily (low price of admission, non-onerous process of purchasing and fast delivery, and high availability of titles), that's not going to happen any time soon.

Does Microsoft have an interest in seeing things like Xbox Marketplace thrive? Sure. Should they be looking at things that will further that goal? Why not? Maybe someday not everything will be a grand Microsoft conspiracy, but I guess there will always be people with tin-foil hats on the lookout for the black helicopters.

Lastly, much has been said about Bill Hunt and his attitudes about the war. I happen to disagree with his prediction, his reasoning, and his insistence that there is nothing that can't change the tide of the war. However, I have never doubted that his core perspective was still about enjoying movies the best way possible... until recently. His fervor for the hobby and frustration about the lack of a decisive victory from either side must have gotten the best of him. Reading his most recent posts made me not want to read anything more on his site. He's heading down a path of (dare I say it) fanboy-ism that bespeaks tunnel vision, and believing one too many press releases. I know that I visit his site much less than I used to, and I consider myself to be very open-minded.

Here's to hoping that the Paramount and Dreamworks Animation news breaks open some barriers to true studio neutrality!
post #302 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I'm not talking about early adoptors or enthusiasts. I'm talking about soccer moms who will let their husbands go out and buy an HD player to go along with the HDTV they got for Christmas last year. I would say under $200 or closer to $150 and you'll start seeing this market open up. And that is when you will really see sales take off.

No, you will see any HD media take off when you can BUY software for sale prices. I wont blind buy on a Blu-ray movie for 20 bucks, or more (thanks FOX) but i blind buy at BB or CC when they have buy 3 for $20 DVD sales. Better yet, DVD titles that have only been out a few months selling for 3 to 5 dollars. When BD or HD can sell cheap discs, then they will win!
post #303 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
In the first place, I guess that Bill Hunt isn't the industry "insider" that he claims he is, or he wouldn't have been surprised by today's announcement. So much for that.

EVERYONE was surprised by this announcement today. Even last night the inkling was that it was only specific titles that were gonna be exclusive to HD-DVD. This was a major stunner. It happens.

So, by your logic, NO ONE could possibly be an insider, since EVERYONE was surprised?

So much for that.

post #304 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Been watching the thread grow and grow all day and from my perspective this is the best quote so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
Yep. The war is over. The winner - DVD and standard definition.

Sadly true. These formats are very much facing a niche status. Maybe this is something Paramount/Dreamworks already foresaw and decided to cash-in while they could. If they truly believed that neither format stands a chance at mass adaption then taking incentives for what I imagine is a relatively short (< 1 year) exclusivity window is a smart business move.
post #305 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickER
No, you will see any HD media take off when you can BUY software for sale prices. I wont blind buy on a Blu-ray movie for 20 bucks, or more (thanks FOX) but i blind buy at BB or CC when they have buy 3 for $20 DVD sales. Better yet, DVD titles that have only been out a few months selling for 3 to 5 dollars. When BD or HD can sell cheap discs, then they will win!

Well sure but they have to buy the player first. Got to have the horse before the cart. Once that happens you'll see the disc prices come down.

Doug
post #306 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
So, by your logic, NO ONE could possibly be an insider, since EVERYONE was surprised?

So much for that.


Well, to a certain degree, yes. Some decisions are made with very few people involved, and just at the top. Most signs point to this being one of those times. Insiders are usually in the lower-to-middle levels. My guess was this was above them.
post #307 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I think something like this was a "must" for HD DVD to survive - especially with Fox coming back on board to release titles, HD DVD needed another major studio advantage in time for the fall/winter. And, this was HUGE. While I've been favoring Blu-ray to pull this thing out and I speculated within a year the format war would be over, it just goes to show you what can happen and how little many of know what goes on behind the scenes. I also have to believe that both sides still have other "tricks" up their sleeves. I'm now starting to wonder how long Warner will support Blu-ray - since it's very clear to me they have clearly been favoring HD DVD and they too release exclusive titles for HD DVD only.

On any rate, I'll continue to watch both formats on my PS3 and A2. However, I will buy certain HD DVD titles as I feel much more confident in the format staying around.
post #308 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Guys, I think we're forgetting the most important factor of today's developments......









The African Queen is HD-DVD exclusive!
post #309 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
I would love to see all studios be format neutral, and I'm probably going to be alone in this viewpoint, but I think the decision today brings us closer to that day.

And how exactly does a format-neutral studio going exclusive with one format get us closer?




Quote:
Well, to a certain degree, yes. Some decisions are made with very few people involved, and just at the top. Most signs point to this being one of those times. Insiders are usually in the lower-to-middle levels. My guess was this was above them.

Then how did your logic reason that Bill Hunt couldn't be connected to insiders? Or was that just going along with the general forum-trend to bash Bill regardless of whether or not it makes sense?
post #310 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Then how did your logic reason that Bill Hunt couldn't be connected to insiders? Or was that just going along with the general forum-trend to bash Bill regardless of whether or not it makes sense?

I think you misunderstood my point. I do think Bill has insiders. I simply think this was one of those times that having insiders doesn't help one out, because even those insiders are in the dark until the announcement. It was RAF (who I quoted in bold) who suggested Bill's "insiders" were not the real deal.
post #311 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

A sad thought indeed that because of payments, which I trulely believe are happening, the consumer is going to get a prolonged format war. At this point all I can think of doing is forgetting the stresses like this (Paramount) of the format war and buy one of the newer 2nd generation duo format players, to be able to just play the movies from all studios and sit back and be happy and forget the format war. It's just sad that after buying movie tickets, VHS copies, then laserdisc copies, then dvds of the same movies over and over, that the studios are still playing us and not putting us first, but that is how it has always been in home video.
post #312 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Now I get what you were saying. Sure, LOTS of insiders were blind-sided by today's announcements. Of course, now that the cat's out of the bag, it doesn't mean that good information isn't being disclosed behind closed doors... and that some are getting wind of it (ie, the leak last night about the cash settlement which is now being confirmed by Paramount execs).
post #313 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Now I get what you were saying. Sure, LOTS of insiders were blind-sided by today's announcements. Of course, now that the cat's out of the bag, it doesn't mean that good information isn't being disclosed behind closed doors... and that some are getting wind of it (ie, the leak last night about the cash settlement which is now being confirmed by Paramount execs).

Wasn't everyone here just screaming about how Bill Hunt "made up" that cash part of the deal?
post #314 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I had to giggle about how this announcement from Paramount/DreamWorks has been interpreted, from the theories on Bill Hunt's lack of "Insidership" to postulating how what format Spielberg supports plays into this. This kind of pointless theorizing makes me bust up inside. You might as well theorize that Paramount/DreamWorks made this announcement to thumb its nose at former division Blockbuster's decision to back BD exclusively.

BTW, you might also get just as much insight on how Paramount keeps announcements secret by reading the book "Star Trek: Phase II" by Garfield and Judith Reeves-Stevens.

You also might be better off taking things at face value and not taking your cues from Allen "Hippy" Carnes in The Abyss: NOT everything is a conspiracy.
post #315 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I first saw this news and thought it was great. I've read through all the posts here and something strikes out at me. When Bluray was trouncing HD-DVD in disc sales some thought that it was good because only one format should survive. Now, some think the opposite, that this move may kill both formats. HD-DVD would have had more studio support if it wasn't for Blurays promise of advanced security and that's not to mention the new shake up about 1.1 spec and players being obsolete by the end of the year. I don't think Blurays going anywhere because when FOX starts releasing again you know Bluray will comeback. I do feel that with Paramount's announcement that Warner Bros. won't be far behind and with them also comes New Line. With all that on HD DVD's side the playing field will most definately be level.
post #316 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Guys, I think we're forgetting the most important factor of today's developments......

The African Queen is HD-DVD exclusive!

Well you will just have to keep viewing your R1 SD DVD copy of the African Queen now, won't you?
post #317 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
We've heard these points beaten to bloody death by you. BD's so-called superiority in tech specs (which I don't necessarily agree with since it is BD who is behind on IME and interconnectivity) and studio support. None of these things will be instrumental in the outcome of this war. My mother doesn't know the difference between uncompressed PCM and Dolby True HD, nor do she and a majority of consumers care! They will however care about the price of software and players.

Yep, those great BD specs that aren't even final yet. Every BD owner, including me, (unless you have a PS3) will have to buy a new player if you ever want to take advantage of those BD-J features like IME but, all HD DVD players have supported IME from the beginning.As far as hardware goes my A2 has worked perfectly but my Sammy BD-P1000 is currently in a Sammy repair shop for the second time in a month and a half because it refuses to load newer BDs like POTC (even with the latest firmware). These superior tech spec are not doing much for me since BD is the format giving me the most trouble right now.

This news really doesn't bother me at all, being format neutral has its benefits. This does however make it easier to decide which format to get Transformers on. The BD fanboys do make me laugh though because in there minds it is perfectly okay for BD to have exclusive studios but the second HD DVD gains an exclusive it is all doom and gloom for HD media.
post #318 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Wasn't everyone here just screaming about how Bill Hunt "made up" that cash part of the deal?

Uhuh. And now there's a link with Parmount confessing in a wall street journal article:http://online.wsj.com/article_email/...DYyMzAwWj.html

Quote:
"both cash payments and soft incentives such as marketing promotions"

I guess it was a lucky guess on Bill's part... huh?

post #319 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Schatz
Wasn't everyone here just screaming about how Bill Hunt "made up" that cash part of the deal?

Bill Hunt was saying this cash deal was from Microsoft - who has been categorically denying this all day.

I would like a link where a Paramount exec LITERALLY said they received a mulit-million dollar payout to go HD-DVD exclusive.

(though I'm guessing there's probably no direct quote from a Paramount Exec stating this).
post #320 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Damn, what are we the Mafia? We're worring about who's taking payoffs and inside deals as if We can do anything about it. It's been going on like this for years, So why now given the circumstances do any of us hold this fact relevent to anything.
post #321 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
Bill Hunt was saying this cash deal was from Microsoft - who has been categorically denying this all day.

I would like a link where a Paramount exec LITERALLY said they received a mulit-million dollar payout to go HD-DVD exclusive.

(though I'm guessing there's probably no direct quote from a Paramount Exec stating this).

They're not going to come out and say, "We took X dollars to go HD-DVD exclusive." Instead, in newspapers like the WSJ, it reads like this, "The studios won undisclosed financial incentives for exclusive commitments to release high-definition movies onto HD DVD only. A person familiar with the situation said the incentives included both cash payments and soft incentives such as marketing promotions."
post #322 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I've just gone agnostic!

I've been a BluRay fan, hoping it would win, but if this war is going to continue another year then I have to say that based on the available titles in the sci-fi, adventure category, that HD-DVD may have the advantage.

I still believe BluRay is the superior format, technologically. But BluRay winning depended on HD-DVD failing. If they are both around, then the war is decided on titles alone. And HD-DVD has more titles I am interested in.:

BLURAY The Fifth Element
BLURAY Terminator2
BLURAY Underworld
BLURAY X-Men 2
(BOTH) Blade Runner
(BOTH) Blade3
(BOTH) Superman Returns
HD-DVD Battlestar Galactica series
HD-DVD The Big Lebowski
HD-DVD Bourne Identity
HD-DVD Kill Bill
HD-DVD Serenity
HD-DVD V for Vendetta

I don't see much point in high def for films that are not visually interesting, such as dramas and comedies, so it really comes down to sci-fi type films.

Lastly, I figure that if both formats cease to exist as stand alone players, as a result of this format war killing off all potential of mass adoption, then there's still a good chance that PCs will continue to have legacy support of HD-DVD. Whereas BluRay may simply vanish.
post #323 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Uhuh. And now there's a link with Parmount confessing in a wall street journal article:http://online.wsj.com/article_email/...DYyMzAwWj.html



I guess it was a lucky guess on Bill's part... huh?


I'm reading from your link:


The studios won undisclosed financial incentives for exclusive commitments to release high-definition movies onto HD DVD only. A person familiar with the situation said the incentives included both cash payments and soft incentives such as marketing promotions.



An anonoymoys "source" is hardly conclusive. It is also very disengenuous to state that Paramount admitted anything from the above statement.

I'll say it again: Until I hear someone from Paramount or Toshiba admit this through an "unanonymous" press rep, this is still just SPECULATION.
post #324 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Schatz
They're not going to come out and say, "We took X dollars to go HD-DVD exclusive." Instead, in newspapers like the WSJ, it reads like this, "The studios won undisclosed financial incentives for exclusive commitments to release high-definition movies onto HD DVD only. A person familiar with the situation said the incentives included both cash payments and soft incentives such as marketing promotions."


Why wouldn't they? There is nothing wrong with it?

Doug
post #325 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
I'm reading from your link:


The studios won undisclosed financial incentives for exclusive commitments to release high-definition movies onto HD DVD only. A person familiar with the situation said the incentives included both cash payments and soft incentives such as marketing promotions.



An anonoymoys "source" is hardly conclusive. It is also very disengenuous to state that Paramount admitted anything from the above statement.

I'll say it again: Until I hear someone from Paramount or Toshiba admit this through an "unanonymous" press rep, this is still just SPECULATION.

You've effectively made sure that you'll never believe it. That's ok with me, though I think misguided.
post #326 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
An anonoymoys "source" is hardly conclusive.

You don't get how newspapers work, do you? The source is not anonymous to the reporter, he is only anonymous to the reader.
post #327 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Why wouldn't they? There is nothing wrong with it?

Doug

Wouldn't be a brilliant PR move. It's better to tout the supposed superiority of your chosen format than say you were bought off. It's all business, but one sounds better than the other.
post #328 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Schatz
Wouldn't be a brilliant PR move. It's better to tout the supposed superiority of your chosen format than say you were bought off. It's all business, but one sounds better than the other.

I think that Paramount had many reasons for doing what they did. $150, if they were paid anything at all is really just icing on the cake and a pretty paltry some for a corporate deal. There is clearly more going on here that some kind of pay off.

Doug
post #329 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Schatz
You've effectively made sure that you'll never believe it. That's ok with me, though I think misguided.

Really?

Is that so?

Perhaps you should READ the article again, because it clearly doesn't claim Paramount admitted to anything - and if they had, so what? Quoting an anonymous source is NOT clarification from Paramount. If Paramount or any under HD-DVD backer offered such assistance, what would be the harm in their admitting it? Afterall, They aren't doing anything illegal!?!

IF it turns out to be true (which isn't an impossibility), I could care less.

The bottom line: Paramount/Dreamworks have dumped BD. Some people seem to have a difficult time coping with this reality, incentives or not.
post #330 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
There is clearly more going on here that some kind of pay off.

Doug

Any guesses as to what that might entail? You've mentioned a couple of times that there is likely something else behind the scenes but I really cannot think of anything else that would make a studio halt a title that has clearly already seen production.
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Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*