Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*
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**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106* - Page 81

post #2401 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I'm not saying that every HD DVD released by Universal is sub-par. I'm specifically stating that when legacy masters exists, Universal uses them to save money regardless of whether a picture-quality gain would be had by spending the money on a new film-to-digital transfer.

NOW you're being more careful with your word choice. This is not what you said originally, what with your reference to "Universal's consistently bad HD transfers."

And in the same way that you can acknowledge that Bill's choice of words is bad, I'd like to think you can understand how someone would take issue with yours: I think you can make your specific point about SOME U CATALOG titles without broadly, basically intimating that anyone who watches catalog U HD DVDs doesn't know what good HD looks like because they're so used to mediocre transfers, transfers that purportedly always look better on "blu." It was a casually insulting remark. It also doesn't follow that you weren't making a broad intimation: you basically said, if you're looking at U discs, you're used to mediocre quality. How is that a title-specific criticism?

And I think my track record shows I've perennially hewn close to the facts and been critical of both sides of the aisle. You can fling the "fanboyism" accusation but it doesn't stick.
post #2402 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

Haven't heard back from Bill yet to confirm exactly what he meant, but I can tell you that my comments about Universal's often poor-quality catalog transfers and the studio's unwillingness to spend the cash for new transfers even for release on high-quality BDM such as HD DVD is no secret. Threads at AVS, started by HD DVD enthusiasts, are devoted to this topic.


Anyone who says that Universal has poor quality catalog titles hasn't seen the likes of The Sting, The Thing, Midnight Run, Sneakers, Apollo 13, The Last Starfighter etc. Have there been a few clunkers from Universal? Yes. But there also have been a few clunkers from Sony.

Doug
post #2403 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Doug and Paul,

I'm sorry if my choice of words wasn't sufficiently qualified.

Yes, not *all* Universal catalog titles are poor. Specifically, the ones that are are the ones where legacy HD masters exist, and to save a few bucks Universal recycles those masters for HDM rather than creating new film-to-digital transfers.

Catalog transfers that may have only had SD transfers got new HD transfers for HD DVD releases, which probably reflects these unscathed titles you mention.

Doug,

the difference between Sony's problem discs (which I also mention... why doesn't anyone notice that? ) is that Sony STOPPED releasing sub-par product after being publically criticized and now ensures that proper masters are used at all times. Same with Disney. Same with Warner. Universal seems to be unaffected by criticism however and has continued with legacy masters despite being criticized.

Quote:
NOW you're being more careful with your word choice. This is not what you said originally, what with your reference to "Universal's consistently bad HD transfers."

And in the same way that you can acknowledge that Bill's choice of words is bad, I'd like to think you can understand how someone would take issue with yours: I think you can make your specific point about SOME U CATALOG titles without broadly, basically intimating that anyone who watches catalog U HD DVDs doesn't know what good HD looks like. It was a casually insulting remark.

And I think my track record will show I've perennially hewn close to the facts and been critical of both sides of the aisle. You can fling the "fanboyism" accusation but it doesn't stick.

Agreed, and I appologise and given that my first comments weren't well enough expressed to ensure the proper clarity (and my fanboyism accusation was unfounded). But please forgive me as well... you and I both know that no matter *how clear* I state my opinion, there is someone who's going to take issue with me and how I said it.

post #2404 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Doug and Paul,

I'm sorry if my choice of words wasn't sufficiently qualified.

Yes, not *all* Universal catalog titles are poor. Specifically, the ones that are are the ones where legacy HD masters exist, and to save a few bucks Universal recycles those masters for HDM rather than creating new film-to-digital transfers.

Catalog transfers that may have only had SD transfers got new HD transfers for HD DVD releases, which probably reflects these unscathed titles you mention.

Doug,

the difference between Sony's problem discs (which I also mention... why doesn't anyone notice that? ) is that Sony STOPPED releasing sub-par product after being publically criticized and now ensures that proper masters are used at all times. Same with Disney. Same with Warner. Universal seems to be unaffected by criticism however and has continued with legacy masters despite being criticized.



I appologise and I agree that my first comments weren't well enough expressed to ensure the proper clarity. But please forgive me as well... you and I both know that no matter *how clear* I state my opinion, there is someone who's going to take issue with me and how I said it.


The Last Starfighter, Midnight Run and Sneakers are all older transfers. All three look great on HD DVD. I suppose they could look better with a bit of dirt and dust removal, but these are first class transfers in spite of having been done a few years ago.

Honestly I haven't seen many Sony releases because they haven't released all that many movies that I want to buy. In spite of the fact that its an MPEG2 encode, I think Into the Blue looks fantastic.

Doug
post #2405 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Great. Paul, see what I mean?



Then how's this for a phrasing that we can all agree on:

"When legacy HD masters exist, Universal uses them to save money even if picture quality gains could be acheived by a new transfer"

That leaves room for certain legacy masters having good quality as well as new transfers having good quality.

Are we all happy?

Quote:
The Last Starfighter, Midnight Run and Sneakers are all older transfers. All three look great on HD DVD. I suppose they could look better with a bit of dirt and dust removal, but these are first class transfers in spite of having been done a few years ago.

Good to hear. The Last Starfighter is one of my favorites, and I'd love to get this on blu sooner than later (and if it doesn't need a new transfer... all the better).
post #2406 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Great. Paul, see what I mean?



Then how's this for a phrasing that we can all agree on:

"When legacy HD masters exist, Universal uses them to save money even if picture quality gains could be acheived by a new transfer"

That leaves room for certain legacy masters having good quality as well as new transfers having good quality.

Are we all happy?



Good to hear. The Last Starfighter is one of my favorites, and I'd love to get this on blu sooner than later (and if it doesn't need a new transfer... all the better).

Honestly David you don't have an HD DVD player so you really can't judge the Universal releases for yourself. All you can really do is quote from some internet reviewer who may or may not know what these films are really supposed to look like.

Doug
post #2407 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Can the HD DVD enthusiasts at AVS judge Universal titles?

I suppose if I bought a close-out HD DVD player on sale and picked up a few of the titles for myself you'd then support my statements?

Is that a deal? (seriously)

You don't seem to support my perceptions on the difference between lossy and lossless audio even though I have direct experience with that software so I want to be sure before I spend the money on an HD DVD player.
post #2408 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Can the HD DVD enthusiasts at AVS judge Universal titles?

I suppose if I bought a close-out HD DVD player and picked up a few of the titles for myself you'd support my statements?

Is that a deal?
David,
Unless you just like this "tit for tat" argument, wouldn't it be better just to wait until the final bell rings in this format war than to daily get involved in these type of arguments?
post #2409 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Can the HD DVD enthusiasts at AVS judge Universal titles?

I suppose if I bought a close-out HD DVD player on sale and picked up a few of the titles for myself you'd then support my statements?

Is that a deal? (seriously)

You don't seem to support my perceptions on the difference between lossy and lossless audio even though I have direct experience with that software so I want to be sure before I spend the money on an HD DVD player.

I have no idea who the people are that are complaining about Universal titles at AVS. I really don't go to AVS because there are far too many yahoos there who THINK they know what they are talking about. There were complaints about haloing on Midnight Run, there is no haloing on Midnight Run. There is the uses of filters on the camera that can cause halos around bright areas of the image. If I had only listened to what people on line were bitching about I would have passed on that title, and would be missing out on a great transfer of a great film.

I don't support your perceptions of the difference between lossy and lossless audio because I don't share your perceptions. (I actually do agree with your perception of the difference between standard DD and lossless) If I were to go by what you say I would have to assume that a title like Hot Fuzz has a soundtrack that is complete shit. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It's one of the best soundtracks I've ever heard lossy or not. Also not having an HD DVD player means that you haven't heard a DD+ track for yourself. As far as I know no blu-ray title has a DD+ track. Again if you had heard a DD+ track for yourself, on your own system, you MIGHT agree with me that it can be so close to the lossless track as to be virtually indistinguishable.

My only point is that you are going by what other people are saying rather than judging for yourself. If you saw some of the Universal titles that people are saying are so crappy for yourself you might be very surprised at how good they are.

By the way, Last Starfighter is one of my favorites too. The transfer is very nice but the film itself is not super sharp again because of the use of filters on the camera. But it accurately represents the way the film is supposed to look

Doug
post #2410 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
David,
Unless you just like this "tit for tat" argument, wouldn't it be better just to wait until the final bell rings in this format war than to daily get involved in these type of arguments?

I could stop posting my opinions on the evolving HDM discussion, but so could eveyone else at HTF...

I've been trying to avoid circular debates and will continue to do so.

Quote:
If I were to go by what you say I would have to assume that a title like Hot Fuzz has a soundtrack that is complete shit.

I've never indicated any such thing. All I've ever said is that all things being equal (the same PCM master) lossless will sound better than lossy, even if lossy sounds "great" already.


Quote:
My only point is that you are going by what other people are saying rather than judging for yourself. If you saw some of the Universal titles that people are saying are so crappy for yourself you might be very surprised at how good they are.

Fair enough. Though in the discussion at AVS it's clear that many of the criticisms appear to be valid (ie, not just "it's not like eye candy" arguemnts we usually hear from folks who don't know what film looks like). But of course, direct experience is best.

Quote:
By the way, Last Starfighter is one of my favorites too. The transfer is very nice but the film itself is not super sharp again because of the use of filters on the camera. But it accurately represents the way the film is supposed to look

Understood. A Room With A View is another example of a BD/HD DVD title that's soft-focus for the same reasons, though the HD experience is as true-to-film as home-video can get and still exceeds the DVD experience by a strong margin.
post #2411 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
I could stop posting my opinions on the evolving HDM discussion, but so could eveyone else at HTF...

I've been trying to avoid circular debates and will continue to do so.
Not everyone is a lightening rod for such discussions and so far, your avoidance doesn't seem to be working very well.
post #2412 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

And I was actually going to sit this one out until a poster called me into the discussion by name...
post #2413 of 3878
Thread Starter 

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
And I was actually going to sit this one out until a poster called me into the discussion by name...
No one held a gun to your head and forced you to answer.

M.
post #2414 of 3878

Re: Petition Universal & Paramount to support Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
For those of you here that would like to petition both Universal , Dreamworks and Paramount to support Blu-ray. Here are two links.

...

Universal Studio Support of Blu-ray Petition

...

Paramount and Dreamworks back to Blu-Ray Petition : [ powered by iPetitions.com ]


Thanks, Dave. Went ahead and signed both. I think some folks are a bit too cynical about these things. Will they definitely make any difference? No, not definitely or even all that likely. But it certainly doesn't hurt to try, if one really cares about the matter. At worst, I just get a little bit more SPAM at my email addy.

FWIW, I do believe some online petitions do end up having meaningful impact. No idea if they do at all for this kind of matter, but I think the one I signed a few years ago against banning photography in mass transit systems, particularly the NYC Subway system, probably did have an impact...

_Man_
post #2415 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
I think some folks are a bit too cynical about these things.
Well, certain developments tend to make you cynical in these matters. Are we still expected to sign Bill Hunt's "Warner, please stay format-neutral" petition?
I guess not, because it was only valid to him until he read the press release saying they would abandon HD DVD (and not BD) in the near future.

There is another "Warner, please stay format-neutral" petition now, started after that press release, but somehow I get the impression Bill isn't an advocate of that anymore....


Cees
post #2416 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Since we're doing petitions here's another.

Let HD DVD Die Petition
post #2417 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrettB
Since we're doing petitions here's another.

Let HD DVD Die Petition

Woah! That one has a *much* bigger list of signatures already.

_Man_
post #2418 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

So they're taking petitions to screw the hd-dvd owners. That will heal everything? Not on your life. I am even more galvanized against blu-ray.
post #2419 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I don't believe the petition asked for all HD DVD discs to stop working and for all current HD DVD players to self destruct.

Time to step back and take an objective look at the situation rather than an emotional one.
post #2420 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

oops, i posted this in the other thread, but i think it belongs here:

My Two Cents - Archived Posts (1/22/08 - 1/11/08)

bluray captured 93% of the hardware sales post warned bluray commitment...

not including PS3's

i am sure some people's galvanization against bluray along with toshiba's fire sale on players will bring hd-dvd back into the game though....
post #2421 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
i am sure some people's galvanization against bluray along with toshiba's fire sale on players will bring hd-dvd back into the game though....

HD DVD hardware sales don't do anythig for HD DVD (especially considering the slim-to-negative profit margin on each player).

Software sales are all that matters.

If every Toshiba HD DVD player was purchased today, but used to watch upconverted DVDs or provide a stand-by machine for existing HD DVD customers, it wouldn't do anything to support HD DVD or get it "back into the game".

HD DVD software sales are all that matter with HD DVD since that's the only factor that affects any financial profit, studio support, or sustainability associated with the format.

And if software sales figures don't rise to match the rise in HD DVD player sales, then those new customers are not new HD DVD consumers.
post #2422 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

The same could be said for BD, since sales numbers are nowhere near DVD's, even with DVD numbers in a freefall.
post #2423 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancisP
So they're taking petitions to screw the hd-dvd owners. That will heal everything? Not on your life. I am even more galvanized against blu-ray.

Francis, you do realise anyone can start a petition? That particular petition isn't actually by the BluRay group or by anyone with any responsibility and is more poking fun at reactions like yours.
post #2424 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancisP
So they're taking petitions to screw the hd-dvd owners. That will heal everything? Not on your life. I am even more galvanized against blu-ray.

I hope we get 'Stripes' on BD soon.
post #2425 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_R
bluray captured 93% of the hardware sales post warned bluray commitment....

These percentage posts have no value without the data behind it. Is the increase due to a sudden increase in BD sales (unlikely), or because of a massive drop in HD DVD hardware sales (more likely). To see if the death of the HD DVD format will actually have any positive impact on BD hardware/software sales we will have to wait for the supporting sales numbers.
post #2426 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
These percentage posts have no value without the data behind it. Is the increase due to a sudden increase in BD sales (unlikely), or because of a massive drop in HD DVD hardware sales (more likely). To see if the death of the HD DVD format will actually have any positive impact on BD hardware/software sales we will have to wait for the supporting sales numbers.

Agreed.

(p.s. Bill added a post on thebits with the actual sales numbers, and while BD hardware sales did rise noticably, the significant shift in the percentages was mostly due to a drop in HD DVD hardware sales)

The Digital Bits - Celebrating Film in the Digital Age

Quote:
Here's how the January Week 1 unit sales looked for each format (week ending 1/5)...

Blu-ray Disc - 15,257 units
HD-DVD - 14,558 units

That was prior to the Warner announcement, which came on 1/4. Now here's how the January Week 2 unit sales data for each format looked AFTER the announcement (for the week ending 1/12)...

Blu-ray Disc - 21,770 units
HD-DVD - 1,758 units

As you can see, the HD-DVD player numbers dropped dramatically. However, it's also true that 21,770 isn't a doubling of the 15,257 of the previous week, so we stand corrected on the Blu-ray comment - Blu-ray player sales did not double, but they did increase significantly. It was always our intention that the data would speak for itself, which is why we were very careful in accurately creating the pie charts, and it's why we're posting the unit sales data for you now. We think the data DOES speak for itself, but now you can all draw your own conclusions.

While we're at it, here are the unit sales numbers for the month of December as well (weeks ending 12/8 to 12/29)...

Blu-ray Disc - 115,132 units
HD-DVD - 76,148 units

So there you go. FYI, we will post the numbers for the second half of January as they become available, to track how sales of both formats are affected by the various recent sales and discounts.
post #2427 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

From taking a very quick look at historical data from SD DVD player sales it appears that HDM is currently on pace to match DVDs adoption rate provided the January numbers can hold strong. If that were the case then I'd be very pleased with these numbers even though they are small in comparison to today's SD DVD player sales numbers.
post #2428 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Honestly David you don't have an HD DVD player so you really can't judge the Universal releases for yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Have there been a few clunkers from Universal? Yes. But there also have been a few clunkers from Sony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Honestly I haven't seen many Sony releases because they haven't released all that many movies that I want to buy
That's easily the most amusing series of statements I've read on this forum. You answer back to David's criticism of Universals catalog releases by pointing the finger at David for not having an HD DVD player and not being able to judge the quality of the transfers for himself. Further more noting that he's relying on written reviews for his information. That's fair enough.

However, at the same time you note that Sony has had a few clunkers yet readily admit that you haven't even laid eyes on many of thier releases at all. So how do you know outside of what you read online and depending on reviewers who or may not know what a film is supposed to look like?

I understand wanting to speak up for Universals catalog releases but boy if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black....
post #2429 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
HD DVD hardware sales don't do anythig for HD DVD (especially considering the slim-to-negative profit margin on each player).

Software sales are all that matters.

If every Toshiba HD DVD player was purchased today, but used to watch upconverted DVDs or provide a stand-by machine for existing HD DVD customers, it wouldn't do anything to support HD DVD or get it "back into the game".

HD DVD software sales are all that matter with HD DVD since that's the only factor that affects any financial profit, studio support, or sustainability associated with the format.

And if software sales figures don't rise to match the rise in HD DVD player sales, then those new customers are not new HD DVD consumers.

I sense that you failed to detect my sarcasm. DAMN YOU INTERNET!!! DAMN YOU!!


and


Quote:
Originally Posted by ppltd
These percentage posts have no value without the data behind it. Is the increase due to a sudden increase in BD sales (unlikely), or because of a massive drop in HD DVD hardware sales (more likely). To see if the death of the HD DVD format will actually have any positive impact on BD hardware/software sales we will have to wait for the supporting sales numbers.


How is that not good for bd/bad for hddvd either way you slice it? The bottom line is the same: HD-DVD going bye-bye to make room for one and only one HD format.
post #2430 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I just signed the let HD-DVD die petition and am impressed with the number of signers on it, I was the 9609th signer.

I would much rather buy Paramount and Universal titles on Blu-ray than HD-DVD that is for sure. I am not saying I would not buy any blockbusters on HD-DVD. But if for example Saving Private Ryan, Gladiator, Back To The Future or Jurassic Park was release without lossless and just a Dolby Digital Plus track on HD-DVD I would have to pass on it!

As long as all 4 titles in the Jack Ryan collection on HD-DVD include the Dolby True HD tracks on the I may just have to pick that set up on release day.

For me the following Blu-ray titles are a must have:
Crimson Tide
Independence Day
I Robot
Man On Fire
Me, Myself and Irene
Ice Age
I Am Legend
Hidalgo
The 6th Day
Twister
Predator
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Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*