Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*
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**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106* - Page 9

post #241 of 3878
8/20/07 at 2:48pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I think this really depends on how many players are sold this Christmas. Frankly I don't think most consumers are confused at all because they haven't heard of either format. However if you have a player on sale this Christmas for around $150, you may get quite a few of those house holds that invested in an HDTV over the last 2 years, to buy an HD player. And it's looking more and more like HD DVD will get to that price before blu-ray.

This is all about the price of the players, I've been saying that for over a year now.

Doug

That's very true, and I do agree with that, I guess. If HD-DVD players get down to a very affordable price, it'll be interesting to see how the sales of software will be affected.

Since I'm format neutral, I haven't been following the sales trends very closely (just enough to know that BD has been outselling HD-DVD consistently). Has there been a noticable increase in HD-DVD software with each hardware price reduction?
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post #242 of 3878
8/20/07 at 2:52pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
This sounds like circular reasoning to me. "BR has the best chance to win because it's winning". However, that is not the same as saying "if BR doesn't win, people will never accept (and buy in large numbers) HDDVD".

HD DVD can't win without Disney, Fox, and MGM. And they aren't about to be swayed by pay-offs: their backing of BD is deep-rooted and lies with issues like BD-J, BD+, and the bandwidth of BD. These are things HD DVD can't ever do.

So given the reality of the landscape of industry support from those studios, even if the other studios were to go dual or go HD DVD, the best case for HD DVD would be a stale-mate where consumers just reject HD media out of frustration.

Personally, since BD is the better-technical-specification, I'm happy that it's the one that Disney/Fox/MGM have chosen. I'd have chosen it too and for the same reasons were I in their shoes. It's a shame that BD didn't have it together with their profile-spec requirements months ago. That would have made it a "done deal" as far as full functionality and maybe helped tip the favor of Universal.

Paramount's decision doesn't seem to have anything to do with web-connectivity and other "full spec" issues like Universal talks about. Of course, what a studio talks about and what is behind their real motivations can be quite different. I wonder what this game will look like in December.
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post #243 of 3878
8/20/07 at 2:59pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
This sounds like circular reasoning to me. "BR has the best chance to win because it's winning". However, that is not the same as saying "if BR doesn't win, people will never accept (and buy in large numbers) HDDVD".

I don't really consider is circular reasoning--it's more like an informed guess. I mean, at this point, it's hard to argue that BD isn't winning from a sales perspective, and this has been going on all year long. It doesn't mean this will hold true forever, but right now, I'm saying that I feel BD has the best chance of winning this war from the evidence that's out there right now. Regardless, if the situation was the other way around, I'd say that HD-DVD has the best chance for mass adoption. Honestly, I feel that they're both fantastic formats and I don't really have a personal stake in it, so I just want ONE format to emerge, and right now, BD seems to have the best chance. The fact that it happens to be technically superior is just icing on the cake.
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post #244 of 3878
8/20/07 at 2:59pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
HD DVD can't win without Disney, Fox, and MGM. And they aren't about to be swayed by pay-offs: their backing of BD is deep-rooted and lies with issues like BD-J, BD+, and the bandwidth of BD. These are things HD DVD can't ever do.
Is that a flat statement that it's inconceivable that those studios would ever support HDDVD?
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post #245 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:02pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Indiana Jones to be available in both BD & HD-DVD???

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/33722
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post #246 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:05pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Isn't it just possible that Paramount is losing money on its blu-ray releases?

No. If that is the reasoning, they are losing money on their HD DVD releases which sell less numbers.

All this payoff is(to me) is a hedge for Paramount and whatnot to absorb the amount they would have made on their BR releases.
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post #247 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:10pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

It it too late to add my "wow" to the collective? I did not see this coming and it is pretty big news in this "war." It makes me feel a bit better about my XA2 upgrade. And it is not surprising that Fox made their announcement today. I mean a lot of Blu-ray authoring slots just opened up.
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post #248 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:12pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
No. If that is the reasoning, they are losing money on their HD DVD releases which sell less numbers.
Profit margins on both formats aren't equal.

Also, one must assume that at one point in time the initial deals with Sony about authoring and pressing BDs and rate of the royalties wear out. That will change the costs and thus the bottom line.

Apart from that: if they would be losing (still) on both formats, twice as many sold, means double the loss.
Nielssen numbers don't say everything, you need to know the (net) profits per sale.


Cees
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post #249 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:15pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Come on Dave!?

We've heard these points beaten to bloody death by you. BD's so-called superiority in tech specs (which I don't necessarily agree with since it is BD who is behind on IME and interconnectivity) and studio support. None of these things will be instrumental in the outcome of this war. My mother doesn't know the difference between uncompressed PCM and Dolby True HD, nor do she and a majority of consumers care! They will however care about the price of software and players.

Paramount/Dreamworks IS exclusive to HD-DVD now. Deal with it. No amount of spin can cloud this simple reality.

I have made it clear that I feel it's wrong for Paramount to flat out drop BD, but this is the REALITY. I also at the time thought that Blockbuster's decision to only carry BD with such as small HD market was short-sighted. So now you won't be able to go into Blockbuster and rent Transformers, Shrek 3, Bourne Ultimatum, Heroes S1, BSG S1, St: TOS S1, and many other big "exclusives." In the end Blockbuster will only hurt themselves, as people turn to Netflix and other stores to rent their HD-DVD titles. Gosh..I would think that expensive box sets like Heroes, Tos and BSG would be perfect for renting as many consumers may not want to invest that much coin in a season set.

Oh well.........
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post #250 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:16pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
HD DVD can't win without Disney, Fox, and MGM. And they aren't about to be swayed by pay-offs: their backing of BD is deep-rooted and lies with issues like BD-J, BD+, and the bandwidth of BD. These are things HD DVD can't ever do.

Again I'm not totally convinced that this is the case. If a significant number of HD DVD players are sold then anything could happen. In the long run it is after all about making money.

Doug
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post #251 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:18pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Very disappointed to read this news today. I'll come right out and say that I am a Blu-ray supporter. Based on the studio support they enjoy (well, minus Paramount now), and the higher sales numbers than HD-DVD, I bought into BD several months ago when I picked up my PS3. I had a feeling that Universal would go format neutral within the next year, and by this time a year from now, BD would have effectively won the format war. Now it looks like this is going to drag on even longer, if it ever ends. I won't be shocked of Warner Bros. announces exclusive support for HD-DVD at some point in the next few months now either.

I'm open to going format neutral at some point, I just don't want to spend the money right now on a 2nd player and HDMI switching.
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post #252 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:19pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
This is all about the price of the players, I've been saying that for over a year now.

It's not all about price for early-adoptors. Only for "average consumers". Are average consumers going to risk even $200 when there's a "format war" going on? Is an average consumer going to be swayed to invest in HD media and hardware on a $150 console if Disney isn't onboard with that format?

BD hardware could be priced at $150 just as easily as HD DVD hardware. If Sony and any other BD manufacturer feel strongly that low-cost hardware is the way to sway consumers (as Toshiba seems to think), then can price their hardware at $150 and eat the losses just like Toshiba in an effort to gain market share. And if anyone wants to say that Toshiba wouldn't lose money at $150, then neither would Sony by the same logic (or lack of logic).

Quote:
Is that a flat statement that it's inconceivable that those studios would ever support HDDVD?

The chances of Disney going with HD DVD is just shy of the chance of Sony going with HD DVD. The chance of Fox is even less, as they won't produce any future HD disc without the added security of BD+ (ie, they'd be more likely to produce NO HD disc than one without BD+)
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post #253 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:23pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

As someone who literally invested in Blu-Ray a little over a week ago, it just sucks to find this out. I don't say this because I think Blu-Ray has to be the end all be all winner, but like many, one of the primary I chose Blu-Ray was for the increased studio support and now for these major studios to just pull out when they had been supporting both, and with no anticipation really stinks, it's different than a studio being exclusive from the start, you know that going in. If an exculsive goes format neutral, fine. Even though it keeps a format war going longer, no one who has already invested gets hurt.

Man what shitty timing
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post #254 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:24pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Martin
No. If that is the reasoning, they are losing money on their HD DVD releases which sell less numbers.

All this payoff is(to me) is a hedge for Paramount and whatnot to absorb the amount they would have made on their BR releases.
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They sell in less numbers but apparently are much cheaper to produce. There is NO evidence that there was a pay off to Paramount.

Doug
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post #255 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:25pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Terrible news =(
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post #256 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:26pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Brian,

At times, format neutral is a nice place to be. It allows you to step back from the "war" and enjoy the movies.

David
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post #257 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:29pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

From a supposed retail insider on another forum:

"Listen people, the studios don't give a damn about you! I spoke to Paramount minutes after this was announced and they weren't concerned in the slightest that thousands of people had pre-ordered Blades of Glory on Blu-Ray, and that our customers were getting screwed (not to mention the retailers take ALL of the crap from them)."

Now, that's the truth if I ever heard it!
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post #258 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:30pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidJ
Brian,

At times, format neutral is a nice place to be. It allows you to step back from the "war" and enjoy the movies.

David
That's my position too. This announcment today has very little overall effect on me personally as it pertains to my collection.
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post #259 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:47pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
It's not all about price for early-adoptors. Only for "average consumers". Are average consumers going to risk even $200 when there's a "format war" going on? Is an average consumer going to be swayed to invest in HD media and hardware on a $150 console if Disney isn't onboard with that format?


The average consumer doesn't know anything about the format war. All they will see is an HD player that is in their price range and they will buy it. They might be replacing an old DVD player and think that for just a few more dollars they can get into HD as well.

And I think you over estimate Disney beyond the family (ie kid video) market. It's big....but its not THAT big. Its not like the 800 pound gorilla that Warner is.

Doug
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post #260 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:50pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Format neutrality is the place to be! Trust me--you'll love your new PS3 and/or Toshiba HD-Whatever. I love mine.
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post #261 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:55pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
There is NO evidence that there was a pay off to Paramount.

Not concrete but plenty of signs pointing to that. I think it's pretty obvious. Who was behind the payoff is a big question(whether it be MS as David keeps saying or Toshiba). I really don't think it matters because both sides are doing it.
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post #262 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:57pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidJ
At times, format neutral is a nice place to be. It allows you to step back from the "war" and enjoy the movies.

David

That's all well and good, but if HDM can't reach mass market because of format confusion there will be less movies released for you to enjoy in HD.

It blows my mind that these studios aren't all getting behind a single format. If HDM doesn't take off, that's a whole new revenue stream they're losing out on before moving to the next decade's big money maker (digital distribution, or whatever). You can only sell your catalog titles so many times...

Sad.
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post #263 of 3878
8/20/07 at 3:59pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
That's my position too. This announcment today has very little overall effect on me personally as it pertains to my collection.

Ditto.

BTW, the Bits must be getting absolutely hammered - I can't get past the main page to the articles on today's developments.
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post #264 of 3878
8/20/07 at 4:07pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Yeah, I've read both of Bill Hunt's two cents columns - is he up to writing a dime's worth today?

Man its painful to see someone commit public reputational suicide.

Amir from Microsoft denies the accusations and has asked Bill to retract his statement.

This should be interesting.
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post #265 of 3878
8/20/07 at 4:08pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

So, I can't be the only one for whom this announcement will spur more purchases, can I?

Honestly, I had started to slow my HD DVD purchases. It just seemed like an unwinnable situation to me, so I picked up a few big new releases (like 300), but slowed my catalog purchases to absolute must-haves (which have been nil from anyone recently) and I certainly wasn't going to be re-purchasing any titles I already owned in SD any time soon. But this announcement gives me much more confidence that HD DVD will be around for quite a bit longer. For that reason, not only will it get me purchasing more Paramount titles, but I'll also definitely be purchasing more Warner and Universal HDs, as well. As far as my wallet is concerned, this is great news for everyone involved in HD DVD.
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post #266 of 3878
8/20/07 at 4:22pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Amir from Microsoft denies the accusations and has asked Bill to retract his statement.
That's painful, because even the title of his article is so not-news, but pure propaganda like.
And then jokes like "Microsoft's HD DVD format"?

He never was that way.


Cees
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post #267 of 3878
8/20/07 at 4:24pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
That's painful, because even the title of his article is so not-news, but pure propaganda like. And then jokes like "Microsoft's HD DVD format"?

He never was that way.


Cees

He wasn't the first to say the $150mil deal with MS though. It leaked last night apparently:

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.co...vd-format-war/
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post #268 of 3878
8/20/07 at 4:29pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

That article looks like a well-balanced opinion from a totally neutral party.
Lots of good both-sided stuff.




Ahem...
(And edited later apparently.)


Cees
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post #269 of 3878
8/20/07 at 4:35pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

As far as I'm concerned the consumer loses in the end. Exclusivity like this does good for no one, And NO I will not be buying a second player to prolong this ridiculous war any longer.
The studios should support both and let the consumer be the decider in the end.
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post #270 of 3878
8/20/07 at 4:44pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

As a person who was just getting ready to take the HD plunge - I am definitely going to hold back now - a few things I want to see developed further:

1. HDMI 1.3
2. BD interactive features and ethernet connectivity
3. BD players coming down in price a bit
4. Major video rental companies - what they will carry, because if and when I do jump in - only going to purchase "must have" titles will rent the rest.
5. The dual players performance and price breaks
6. The price of HD DVD players and how they sell in the 4th quarter this year.

I think I would be better served in the meantime to upgrade my audio/video components with a future eye on HD connectivity until this studio war is over.
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Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*