**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106* - Page 73

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

For me it only really affects on-line orders where the discs come lose in the packaging during shipping. That happens all the time with DVDs (grrrr) but rarely with CDs that I've ordered.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Off the topic of scratched discs for a moment, did anybody notice that the first sub $300 BD player is officially for sale?

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

While I'm not wild about the idea of buying a Samsung, I'm not wild about the idea of buying a Toshiba either. ;-)

I don't think it's earth-shaking news that a below-$300 BD player is for sale for the Holidays. But it does narrow the cost-differential between HD DVD/BD hardware to more consumer-friendly levels.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

The thing is, it's an outdated 1.0 model.

No duel video processing, so no picture in picture, and no ethernet connectivity.


Even if you don't care about those things as much, you will still be hindered by it.


The only Blu Ray players I can see being worth a buy are the PS3 and the new Panasonic player.





Sounds good.

I'll stay red....

Oh wait, that's not what he wants.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I'm going to wait on the reviews of the new Samsung BD-UP5000 dual format player before I buy another blu-ray player. I won't buy anything that isn't at least 1.1

Doug

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

By the way... for those of you thinking maybe it makes sense to buy BOTH Blu-ray and HD-DVD to cover your bases, it would frankly be smarter just to buy neither. I know it's tempting for enthusiasts to buy both, but keep this in mind: Supporting both is only going to continue prolonging this format war, when what we all really need is for this thing to end as soon as possible.

-Bill Hunt


Isn't it possible that both formats will survive this "war" and live to see big profits for years to come?
Does there have to be a clear cut winner?

I think a lot of this is remnants of the old VHS/Betamax war where one side went belly up and to a lesser degree the DVD/Divx war where that really wasn't ever in doubt as America rejected the Divx format in droves!

America seems to be ok with both Red and Blu.

When an affordable combo player comes out I bet sales of both software go way up!

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

This was a stupid war to begin with. Until Toshiba starts making dual format drives, then the war hurts consumers. All players and PCs need the same drive type either read both formats or KILL a format now and get on with it.

I am hoping blu-ray wins, since it has a better ability to be more than just a movie delivery system. I want a disc that I can use anywhere and stores a lot of data. Please don't go to the triple layer HD-DVD. Blu-ray will have the same and already they can get to 200 gig in test.

The jeanie was let out of the bottle by some company that pressured one vendor to have their own format. Who was that? This will be an interesting history lesson for a business class.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I disagee, surprise. Since there was no data released on the total number of unique people of the 750,000 players that used web content, we don't know the answer.

Didn't Trasformes sell more than 80K? Where did the 80K come from?

It is funny how we can all spin the numbers......

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

If true, then Panasonic, Sony, Phillips, Denon and Sharp all need to make HD combo players as well right? If Toshiba is guilty of hurting consumers with the war, so are those guys.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Re Bill's "By the way" comments: His speculative vision of a possible future with one format is supposed to be more important than the practical enjoyment of HD movies now. I would be "smarter" to not have and enjoy players for both formats and instead simply sit on the sidelines, waiting for a 'resolution' that may never come, while a tidal wave of catalog titles rushes by with unprecedented picture and audio quality. Even though I'm largely Netflixing, my "supporting" both formats is "prolonging" the "format war."

What a load of offensive nonsense.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Seems Bill isn't the only one posting nonsense around here.



It's valid to disagree. Suggesting that prolonging the war which delays full HD adoption by both the studios and consumers is valid. As is your point. Either you're both nonsense or you're both valid. Why are Bill's thoughts on this, which are shared by most of the industry, any less valid than yours?

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Hmmm. We've got most every major CE manufacturer doing blue. We've got Toshiba (and an Onkyo re-badge) doing red. It's pretty obvious which camp broke ranks to do their own thing and create a climate of dual-format chaos... if we're going to talk about hardware.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

The logical conclusion of your two premises is that both Bill "and most of the industry" advocate nonsense.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Given that some seem convinced that the low-adoption rate of HD and lack of profitability of hardware is such a great thing... your definition of "logic" intrigues me.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Does "most of the industry" really want no one to buy either format?

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Re "It's valid to disagree."

Gee, thanks for your blessing.

"Suggesting that prolonging the war which delays full HD adoption by both the studios and consumers is valid."

He doesn't "suggest" this David (and you know better): he repeatedly, explicitly states it as though it is fact when it is not. As has been repeatedly proferred to counter this notion that "war"-inspired consumer "confusion" rules the day, there is a large segment of the population that is apathetic and/or blissfully ignorant moreso than confused.

"Either you're both nonsense or you're both valid."

I disagree.

"Why are Bill's thoughts on this, which are shared by most of the industry, any less valid than yours?"

It's gratuitous, inaccurate and self-serving to say "most of the industry" shares Bill's perspective.

In response to your question, my position is not based upon the speculative notion that the existence of only one format would remove most if not all barriers to greater HDM acceptance.

I'm not telling other consumers what to do with their money. I'm also not offensively intimating that consumers such as myself who have and enjoy both BD and HD DVD are part of the problem.

I'm also not seemingly putting format partisanship before love and enjoyment of movies.

I'm also not grandstanding and opportunistically hogging the floor at an HD DVD trade show event, essentially haranguing representatives of an HDM format with my problematic, presumptuous opinions about the HD/DVD marketplace, opinions which are already fairly well-known because I blather about them nearly everyday at my freakin' Website.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Tell us how you really feel!



In all fairness, I understand your explicated gripes with Mr. Hunt here. However, those grievances extend beyond his opinion, which was my point of contention. If you're taking a passionate view against with how he promotes his opinion (rather than railing about the opinion itself), that's a more focuses and meaningful discussion.

I personally think that Mr Hunt is doing a great job and, in the long run, the HT community a great favor by taking the stand that he has. I can also understand why anyone who has embraced HD DVD would be frustrated with the same situation.


I'm just curious. Do you then base your position on the speculative notion that the existence of a single format would not be better?

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I have issues with both his opinion and ways he has chosen to express it. And this is very important: I would have some of these issues regardless of my position about HD DVD. My criticisms do not exclusively flow from my "embrace" of HD DVD. If I were exclusively passionate about BD, I would still find some of his behavior and commentary embarrassing.


No. Flipping the premise doesn't result in a statement I'd agree or am comfortable with. (But I agree with the argument that hardware prices would higher had only one format come to market.)

In the final analysis, I think we just can't/don't know. I therefore find it distasteful, unprofessional, presumptuous and downright rude to say and do some of the things he has done. Personally, if I'm going to step on as many toes as I think he has, it's going to be motivated by facts not passions.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I'm going to go out on a limb here and propose something so drastic and simple that it may just shake up the foundation of the Capitalist system and that is......competition is good for business and aids consumers as well. Agree???? Disagree???

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

It also shows that the BD camp is willing it sell hardware at a major loss, something Toshiba has been critisized for endlessly. Guess everyone (including Sony) is willing to take a beating on the hardware sales, huh.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Want to elaborate where you get the 'most of the industry' nonsense? I have never seen that validated anywhere.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Both HD and BD (30 and 50 GB, not 51 and 200) store alot of data, both store movies, no difference. there is nothing magical about BD, or HD for that matter. They are mearly storage devices, nothing more. So the question is, just what do you think BD can do that HD can not?

Ahh, Sony maybe?

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Hmmm, most major CE companies have not entered the High Def field yet as they probably see no profit in stand alone players.

The rebadge comment is also not accurate. Commissinging other manufacturers to produce product for you is a standard manufacturing practice, not a negative. In addition, we do not know what component requirements where placed on Toshiba by Onyko during the production phase. While they may share similar components (as all HD and BD players do), they are probably not just a simple rebadge.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Show me why the $300 Samsung is losing money on their player. Since they don't own the same stake in BD that Toshiba owns in HD DVD, why would Samsung sell its hardware at a loss? Toshiba recoups any hardware losses with significant software royalties (the reason why Toshiba is pushing for HD DVD at all).


The authoring advantages of an additional 20 GB of data storage, coupled with 1.5x the bandwidth of HD DVD, have been well covered, again and again.



It's already been confirmed that the Onkyo is a rebadge with a few minor firmware alterations. Check AVS (the info comes from HD DVD enthusiasts)


I didn't say it was a bad thing. But rebadging a product, even with a few minor firmware alterations, means you're not investing any significant R&D in a product... and so it is often done when there's little or no room to recoup such an investment.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

It fascinates me how you equate "has been debated before" with "is a settled question with respect to real-world superiority".

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

The reason why more manufacturers went with bluray is simple. Sony promised to keep prices high while Toshiba made clear that affordability was something they would push. Were it not for hd-dvd, bluray prices would still be closer to $1000 today.

Bluray does have more space but most people don't need the extra space. Maybe we can use both. Hddvd would likely suffice for the majority of people's uses while bluray would suffice for those with a need for even more.
The majority of people will want their systems for playing movies and nothing more. All these grandiose ideas that people have about hd are not shared by the majority.

Also bluray has an added expense. Hddvd is a refinement of the basic technology that sdvds use while bluray is very different. Backwards compatibility is more expensive for bluray than it is for hddvd.

As for Mr Hunt, his credibility on hd issues with me is underwater it is so low.
He is entitled to his opinion but when his opinion dictates how he covers hd
then he becomes a hack. His coverage of hd has been one sided. He has thrown out wild accusations. He has also taken cheap shots at those who have chosen hd-dvd.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

That doesn't make the alleged advantages manifest themselves in the real world.

Doug

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I don't have a problem with Bill Hunt having an opinion about which format he thinks is better, or using his website to espouse those opinions.

My problem is that he has set himself up as the protector of the masses and the arbiter of of all things home video. Bill Hunt knows whats best for the home theater community and everyone else should just tow the line! Frankly it's insulting. Who died and made Bill Hunt king?

Doug

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

You. You and everyone that continues to get your panties in a bunch every time he says something that remotely offends you. Here's an idea, if you don't like what the guy is saying then simply ignore him and his website. It's not terribly difficult to do really. Though in reading these forums it seems like you all live and die by the importance of his HD rants.

Oh and spare me the whole "but he has power to control peoples minds and affect the outcome of this war!" nonsense. The myriad of BOGO sales going on and a concerted effort from bigger forums to hold mass Amazon sales drives have also affected this war to a greater degree on a weekly basis. As has price drops on hardware, advertising and any number of other factors that are FAR more important than a few rants from Bill Hunt on The Digital Bits.

If you want to blame anyone for Bill Hunt continuing to be a public home theater figure that "wields dangerous EVIL power"...then blame yourselves for continuing to give him that power and attention.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Richard Casey, produder for R&H films, has threads at AVS discussing how he saw improvements with using the higher bit-rate of Blu-ray with advanced video compression codecs versus HD DVD. He also shared discussion about how HD DVD didn't have room for lossless audio and optimal picture quality with his title, so he went for better picture and provided lossy instead on the HD DVD (full lossless on the BD). His studio releases on both disc platforms and is giving equal support to both. He's not alone in his perception that increased bit-rate can improve picture quality: several other authoring personel who post at AVS (other than Amir, of course) have stated that they too see improvements in picture quality using the higher-bit-rate of Blu-ray Disc. Other studios have conducted their own bit-rate comparisons and come to similar conclusions (Disney). Paramount reps have already stated openly that they didn't have room for lossless audio on the high-profile HD DVD release of Transformers, which was the only reason it wasn't provided. The fact that some dual-disc HD DVD releases by WB were able to be released on single-disc BD also has benefits for many customers who don't enjoy disc-swapping to view SE content.

People here can debate about this, and can mimic the microsoft line that there's no benefit to increased bit-rate (that's exactly what MS wants us all to believe. Their latest ploy is that lossy DD is transparent as well, since there's not enough room for TrueHD on every HD DVD title). And that's fine to think whatever we want. We're not authoring content. But those in-the-know who are actually compressing video and aren't on Microsoft's bill (or allied with HD DVD) are well aware of how increased bit-rate can, in many cases, improve image quality and maintain greater transparency to the master. Anyone here is free to search at AVS to read their candid remarks.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Actually I do ignore him. I haven't been to his site in the better part of a year. However his thoughts and opinions tend to creep into just about every site that deals with home video in some form or another.

Doug