Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*
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**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106* - Page 72

post #2131 of 3878
12/9/07 at 1:37pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

Well you've answered your own question and explained your outlook on the matter.

You really wouldn't care even if those decisions helped stop the adoption of HD media and pushed high-def software to a limited niche market without widescale support?

BTW, I don't really believe you "don't care"... not entirely... because you're participating in this thread and are a member of HTF.

For me, I've always taken a "visionary" approach to home-video... even when it meant spending more money, boycotting product based on priciple (like non-anamorphic DVDs), or starting conumser-campaigns to help change an industry leader's policy about something: like when I organized the email campaign that got Artisan to release T2 as a 16x9 anamorphic dual-layer DVD instead of the 4x3 letterboxed "flipper" that they had planned to release. It worked by the way, and Arisan... then Live Entertainment, released a new 16x9 transfer on the world's first "reverse spiral dual layer" DVD that allowed continuous play over two layers. Image was also going to release Dances with Wolves in 4x3 lbx to recycle the laserdisc master. Called them up and changed their minds too. I bought a 16x9 progressive-scan TV in 1996 before DVD was even released, for twice the cost of a regular 4x3 interlaced TV. Why? Because I care about supporting the advance of technology in home-theater and, in turn, getting the best picture I can (within the boundaries of my budget... of course).
David,
I'm impressed! You really do take a visionary and active role concerning home theater related technology and I applaud you for your efforts as well as your accomplishments.

I share your passion in promoting the adoption of HDM as the preferred physical entertainment choice over the next decade. However, we do disagree on which format will accomplish that goal.

With your apparent technical background and willingness to pay extra for that "better" picture it's obvious what your format of choice is.

I, on the other hand, think the key to mass adoption of HDM is affordability and in that regard Toshiba has no equal. Whether you like it or not, price trumps non-perceived superior technology. I'm not saying the Toshiba led HD-DVD camp is going to win. They don't have to do anything beyond flooding the market with inexpensive players and let other market forces take over.

The last thing we both want is for HDM to remain a niche product and what needs to be done to prevent that from happening. I still have my Laserdisc player.
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post #2132 of 3878
12/9/07 at 2:19pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I was looking at the HD-DVD press release that 80,000 people use internet connectivity at least once. This would have to be the highest on any disc for HD-DVD to report just this title. Do you agree?

The press release then says of the people going on line 30% went back again. So ths means that 24,000 people went back on-line.

Using the 750,000 player penetration only 24,000 or 3.2 percent went on line for any one release more than once. WOW big feature.

Is this right?
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post #2133 of 3878
12/9/07 at 2:26pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I finally took mine on line. Transformers never worked for the longest time.


Today I put Shrek in, and it connected, then put Transformers back in, and it connected. I was using my Xbox, which I bought the wireless adapter for, so I can access the internet quite handily.

I'm glad it works now, there's no explanation for it not to, but the GPS/Health Bar stuff on Transformers is really neat.



I don't expect a large percent of people to go online. It would seem like a hassel to me for alot of people to run internet to their TV. I know it's far away from my families living room TV.
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post #2134 of 3878
12/9/07 at 4:16pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_Ohio
I was looking at the HD-DVD press release that 80,000 people use internet connectivity at least once. This would have to be the highest on any disc for HD-DVD to report just this title. Do you agree?

The press release then says of the people going on line 30% went back again. So ths means that 24,000 people went back on-line.

Using the 750,000 player penetration only 24,000 or 3.2 percent went on line for any one release more than once. WOW big feature.

Is this right?
It is incorrect to use the total install base of players in your equation.

In order to get a more accurate gage of the web features popularity one would need to use the number for the HD DVDs sold instead of the players’ number.

So since the 80k number is for the Transformers HD DVD those are the numbers that are needed to get a more accurate picture.

Besides web features, which I happen to like, internet connective makes performing firmware updates very consumer friendly.

As an owner of both formats, I certainly do wish my Blu-Ray player had internet connectivity so I would not have to waste additional money and time performing the constant updates that seem to be needed.
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post #2135 of 3878
12/9/07 at 5:04pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette
The coating on Blu-ray Discs may be necessary for that format's function because the data is closer to the surface, but it doesn't change the fact that I have a much higher confidence in receiving an unscratched BD vs. an unscratched HD DVD because of those realities. The condition of my media is impotant to me for various reasons, resale being the most practical of them.
Included amongst the very first set of Blu-Ray discs I bought was 'Planet Earth' and to my dismay I discovered that Disc No.2 was dislodged from it's holder and was rattling around in the case. But lo and behold when I opened the case and took a look at the disc itself, not a scratch or any signs of damage. My very first reaction was thank god for the hard coating. I would have been really upset if the very first Blu-Ray disc I got was damaged, specially considering that I would be stuck with a bad BD just as I have been stuck with numerous damaged DVDs over the years. In case you are wondering why I would be stcuk with them and not simply get the damaged discs replaced, it's because I have no way to have the discs replaced since I get my DVDs/BDs shipped to me from the US. The trouble and expense of having to send the discs back is way too much. I am sure the rental industry prefers Blu-Ray for it's hard coating too. In fact if it were left to the rental industry, they would have insured that all DVDs, BDs, HD-DVDs came in a caddy.
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post #2136 of 3878
12/9/07 at 5:57pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigluigi
Same no problem result with two A2s on Netflix rentals and I've been renting since June. In fact (knock on wood) I can't recall a single problem with any disc be it rental, HD-DVD or DVD commercial or burned DVD.

I've had a few cracked SD DVDs from both Netflix and Blockbuster Online. But so far I've only had problems with scratched blu-ray discs. The HD DVDs may have been scratched, but unless they fail to play I don't look to see if they are or not.

Doug
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post #2137 of 3878
12/9/07 at 5:59pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

If you define "the rental industry" as Blockbuster, I suppose so. Netflix probably wouldn't like to pay for shipping caddies both ways.

Of course, if it were up to the rental industry, these things would cost $80 for the first six months like VHS tapes did.
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post #2138 of 3878
12/9/07 at 6:02pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_Ohio
Could be a couple of reasons I guess.

1) HD fan renting the blu-ray and intentially destroying the disc. Not likely but you never know.
2) Too many people renting the Blu-rays
3) Disc needs to be cleaned.
4) Disc used in a video to show it still works. Just kidding.

If you keep having issues from Netflix, then I would switch to Blockbuster. All discs have been clean and woking fine.

I have both Netflix and Blockbuster and have had scratched blu-rays from both. Like I said I don't have any idea if the HD DVDs were scratched or not, I didn't look because they played with no trouble. I can't say the same of the blu-ray rentals.

Doug
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post #2139 of 3878
12/9/07 at 6:03pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_Ohio
So a manufacture should add HD-DVD and it's costs to sell a player for even less profit? Don't think that will happen. Even the current LG dual format player had Blu-ray on the front of the unit. I had to look at it closely to see it as a dual format player.

Thats because it wasn't a true dual format player. It didn't fully support the HD DVD format and couldn't use the HD DVD logo.

Doug
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post #2140 of 3878
12/9/07 at 6:20pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
So a manufacture should add HD-DVD and it's costs to sell a player for even less profit? Don't think that will happen.
Is this a claim that the Samsung BD-UP5000 does not exist and will not be sold?
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post #2141 of 3878
12/9/07 at 6:45pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Whether you like it or not, price trumps non-perceived superior technology. I'm not saying the Toshiba led HD-DVD camp is going to win. They don't have to do anything beyond flooding the market with inexpensive players and let other market forces take over.

The thing is Blu-ray trumps HD-DVD in the price dept once you buy enough discs with the Buy one get ine free sales! Since I recently entered the HD fray with a Toshiba A3 player, I hope the HD-DVD folks start cranking out more releases and with BOGO deals!
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post #2142 of 3878
12/9/07 at 8:51pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_Ohio
How is the HD-DVD coating holding up?

According to this thread...

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...d.php?t=265727

...it isn't.
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post #2143 of 3878
12/9/07 at 8:54pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
With the special coating, Blu-ray discs are reasonably as robust as the HD DVD discs. Originally, they figured they needed a caddy to hold BD, then a stern coating, but the current layer solution seems to work fine.

While without the coating BD would be much more easily damaged than standard HD DVD/DVD discs, *with* the coating BD is significantly more robust than both HD DVD and DVD. HD DVDs are just as easily scratched as DVDs... their physical composition is the same. With the hard-coat, Blu-ray Discs are incredibly scratch-resistant: much more so than DVD/HD DVD discs.

Quote:
According to this thread...

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...d.php?t=265727

...it isn't.

That's because HD DVD discs aren't "coated" at all. The laser reads through the disc substrate just like with CD and DVD. HD DVDs are manufactured with the same physical structure of regular DVDs... just smaller dots. They are no more resistant to being scratched than standard DVDs.

So far I have yet to see a single scratch appear on any of my BDs... and that includes the three titles that arrived at my door with the discs having come loose in the packaging (what would have resulted in several obvious surface-scratches on DVDs that have arrived the same way in the past).
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post #2144 of 3878
12/9/07 at 9:38pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I don't think I have ever scratched a disc.
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post #2145 of 3878
12/10/07 at 12:31am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ric Easton
I don't think I have ever scratched a disc.

Nor have I.

Non-issue for me.
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post #2146 of 3878
12/10/07 at 12:36am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
While without the coating BD would be much more easily damaged than standard HD DVD/DVD discs, *with* the coating BD is significantly more robust than both HD DVD and DVD. HD DVDs are just as easily scratched as DVDs... their physical composition is the same. With the hard-coat, Blu-ray Discs are incredibly scratch-resistant: much more so than DVD/HD DVD discs.



That's because HD DVD discs aren't "coated" at all. The laser reads through the disc substrate just like with CD and DVD. HD DVDs are manufactured with the same physical structure of regular DVDs... just smaller dots. They are no more resistant to being scratched than standard DVDs.

So far I have yet to see a single scratch appear on any of my BDs... and that includes the three titles that arrived at my door with the discs having come loose in the packaging (what would have resulted in several obvious surface-scratches on DVDs that have arrived the same way in the past).



This is all true David, but just because a DVD is scratched doesn't mean it won't play. This doesn't seem to be the case with a blu-ray disc, at least in my experience. And a DVD or HD DVD, once scratched, can be repaired. Because the data is so close to the surface, I'm not sure this is possible with a blu-ray disc.

Doug
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post #2147 of 3878
12/10/07 at 6:28am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I've rented dozens of blu-ray and HD-DVD movies from Blockbuster Online and Netflix, here's my experience with their reliability:

I've had 2 blu-ray movie not start up at all in my PS3 (one looked completely normal, the other had a splotchy look inside the disc). I've also had 2 cracked discs, both Blu-ray. My negative HD-DVD experience has always been due to their combo format, with a few skips and hang-ups, although recently Mr. Bean's Holiday would not even load, so I had to watch the movie on the SD side. Although I've seen some really scuffed up HD discs, they have all played without any issues that I remember.
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post #2148 of 3878
12/10/07 at 6:57am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
I don't think I have ever scratched a disc.

Quote:
Nor have I.

Non-issue for me.

Nor have I. But that really isn't the issue I was referring to.

The problem, for me, is receiving new HD DVDs that are already scratched. After thinking about the issue some, the problem for me has always been greater with Combo Format discs. Hot Fuzz was the worst, and I never could find an "acceptable" copy. I guess there's twice as much surface area to scratch afterall.

However, if I had to break it down further than that, I would say that most of my scratch issues are from Universal discs. Again, this stands to reason as Universal was initially the biggest proponent of the Combo Format releasing some great catalog titles only in that format. However, Universal has always been a really bad QC offender in my book, especially the DVD-18 fiasco.

I think that there are some problems with HD DVDs manufacturing process. It is the only way I can explain some of the scuffs and the curved, tangential scratches I have seen, especially on the BSG:S1 set.

But I have a feeling some of the scratches on the Combo Format discs are the result of the anti-piracy and firmware notice inserts rubbing against the SD DVD side of the discs. Star Trek Disc 1 is consistently scratched on the SD DVD side as a result of becoming loose in the package and rubbing against its cardboard insert. All of these types of scratches would be avoided with BD's coating.

So, ironically, because I don't scratch my discs, BD is a beter choice for me because it helps to assure it isn't scratched on its way to me. Now renting is a different story. Some people do the most amazing things, and not in a good way, to rented discs. However, my experience has been about the same with each format. Two copies of Million Dollar Baby on BD wouldn't play due to scratches, and one copy of The Good Shepherd would not either. But, again, for my own personal collection and archival purposes, I prefer the coating.
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post #2149 of 3878
12/10/07 at 7:53am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Hot Fuzz was the worst, and I never could find an "acceptable" copy.
Did you send it in to the Combo Analysis program? See thread on top of this subarea (sticky). They get you a working one in return.


Cees
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post #2150 of 3878
12/10/07 at 7:57am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
I've had 2 blu-ray movie not start up at all in my PS3 (one looked completely normal, the other had a splotchy look inside the disc).

Can you remember the name of the title that had that splotchy look? I remember there was one title that had some sort of manufacturing defect early on that caused a sort of "rot" of the reflective layer.

BTW, aside from scratch issue and combo issue, the biggest play-stopper with both discs seems to be finger prints. Luckily that's easily fixed.
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post #2151 of 3878
12/10/07 at 8:10am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

HD-DVD's can be scratched just like CD's and DVD's, and just like CD's and DVD's, they are repairable to a point.




Blu Ray discs, which do in fact need the hard coating, are NOT repairable.


It should be noted that the hard coating on Blu-Ray discs is not an EXTRA feature, but a Necessary feature. Since that data is so close to the surface, the coating needs to be extra thin. A scratch damages the data permanently.

It seems however that the hard coating is doing its job for the most part. If it wasn't for it, the discs would be in sleeves.
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post #2152 of 3878
12/10/07 at 8:15am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Blu Ray discs, which do in fact need the hard coating, are NOT repairable.


It should be noted that the hard coating on Blu-Ray discs is not an EXTRA feature, but a Necessary feature. Since that data is so close to the surface, the coating needs to be extra thin. A scratch damages the data permanently.

It seems however that the hard coating is doing its job for the most part. If it wasn't for it, the discs would be in sleeves.

It doesn't matter if it's "needed", if the end result of the hard-coat on BD is that the discs are basically scratch-proof (which they are), then it's a more robust result. If I snap an HD DVD in half it's not repariable either. Of course, that's an unreasonable problem to suggest given that even rough-handling of HD DVD discs would never snap them in half. Well, rough-handling of Blu-ray Discs will never scratch them. So that's just as far-fetched.

I know we're so used to scratched DVDs that it's bizarre to think of a handled-disc being impervious to scratching. As unusual at may seem, BD's are basically scratch-proof.
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post #2153 of 3878
12/10/07 at 8:25am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
It doesn't matter if it's "needed", if the end result of the hard-coat on BD is that the discs are basically scratch-proof (which they are), then it's a more robust result. If I snap an HD DVD in half it's not repariable either. Of course, that's an unreasonable problem to suggest given that even rough-handling of HD DVD discs would never snap them in half. Well, rough-handling of Blu-ray Discs will never scratch them. So that's just as far-fetched.

I know we're so used to scratched DVDs that it's bizarre to think of a handled-disc being impervious to scratching. As unusual at may seem, BD's are basically scratch-proof.



Well....yeah.


I'm not aware of the force needed to put a scratch in a blu ray disc, but if it happens, the disc is dead.

He's a question.

Could HD-DVD basically license the scratch proof coating formula and implement it into their discs?

Physically, I would imagine it could be done being more space available.
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post #2154 of 3878
12/10/07 at 8:32am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I already suggested it (hard-coat for HD DVD) a few posts earlier. Let's see if HD DVD enthusiasts react differently when it's suggested by an HD DVD consumer rather than a BD consumer... (listening pause...)
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post #2155 of 3878
12/10/07 at 9:03am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
I already suggested it (hard-coat for HD DVD) a few posts earlier. Let's see if HD DVD enthusiasts react differently when it's suggested by an HD DVD consumer rather than a BD consumer... (listening pause...)
Having it "suggested" by "a" consumer means essentially nothing. It needs to be desired by MANY purchasers of HDDVDs (not by someone who has no interest in buying the format), enough to convince studios that it would be to their competitive benefit to put it on the discs. This is distinct from NEEDING the coating for the discs to work at all.

Quote:
It doesn't matter if it's "needed",
It DOES matter if you care about cost. What manufacturer likes to add an unnecessary cost of production?
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post #2156 of 3878
12/10/07 at 10:01am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
It doesn't matter if it's "needed", if the end result of the hard-coat on BD is that the discs are basically scratch-proof (which they are), then it's a more robust result. If I snap an HD DVD in half it's not repariable either. Of course, that's an unreasonable problem to suggest given that even rough-handling of HD DVD discs would never snap them in half. Well, rough-handling of Blu-ray Discs will never scratch them. So that's just as far-fetched.

I know we're so used to scratched DVDs that it's bizarre to think of a handled-disc being impervious to scratching. As unusual at may seem, BD's are basically scratch-proof.

They are defiantly NOT scratch proof as 5 of them that I have rented are proof of.

Doug
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post #2157 of 3878
12/10/07 at 10:33am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Did you send it in to the Combo Analysis program?

No because "acceptable" in this case meant reasonably free of scratches, not unplayable. I tried four copies, all equally scratched up, before I just gave up and rented it.

I still take some degree of my collector mentality, from the days of buying such condition-critical things as comic books, etc., into this hobby. So I am probably turned off by scratches more so than most, but it is also a matter of principle in that I don't like paying for something that isn't in the condition I expect it to be.

Again, resale is the main driver for being so scratch adverse. The amount of scratching I found on the four Hot Fuzz Combo Format discs would have resulted in them being refused by a trade-in place like DVD Planet for example. I have since realized it is probably best to just rent rather than blind-buy, but all the BOGOs recently have sorely tempted me to continue doing it.

Quote:
They are defiantly NOT scratch proof as 5 of them that I have rented are proof of.

Yes. I have seen examples of this too. This is why I said I have seen some amazing things with regard to the condition of rent discs. You really have to go out of your way to scratch a BD to the point it won't play.
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post #2158 of 3878
12/10/07 at 10:37am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I'm really surprised at the number of people reporting new discs that are scratched. I don't think I've ever had a new disc scratched with CDs, DVDs, HD DVDs or blu-rays. I started buying CDs in 1985.

Doug
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post #2159 of 3878
12/10/07 at 10:48am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ric Easton
The thing is Blu-ray trumps HD-DVD in the price dept once you buy enough discs with the Buy one get ine free sales! Since I recently entered the HD fray with a Toshiba A3 player, I hope the HD-DVD folks start cranking out more releases and with BOGO deals!
I hear ya. As I'm typing this I'm drooling over that Samsung 1400 BR player over at Amazon for $277.00 and just may pull the trigger. Those BR software BOGO sales are just awesome and impossible to ignore for true movie fans...get em while their HOT!!!
I'm also waiting for some dramatic response from the HD-DVD camp that's software related...just how long can this MADNESS continue??? I love it!!!
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post #2160 of 3878
12/10/07 at 11:03am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
I'm really surprised at the number of people reporting new discs that are scratched. I don't think I've ever had a new disc scratched with CDs, DVDs, HD DVDs or blu-rays. I started buying CDs in 1985.

I actually think it has gotten worse over time. For example, it seems almost a certainty to me now that if I buy a box set with a large number of discs in it that I will be exchanging it at least once because of scratched discs. For whatever reason HBO series on DVD are particularly notorious in this respect, as I have had trouble with scratched discs on both the first and second seasons of Deadwood and Rome. It did not used to be that way.

However, as I said before, I'm pretty particular about the condition of my stuff. I will hold my discs up to a bright light in order to inspect them once I've opened them. I've actually even learned to live with a hairline scratch or two because of this preceived downward trend in QC, but any more than that, and I have to wonder if I could resell it down the road or whether it would play.

Before any of you think I'm completely nuts, I try to only bitch about the most extreme examples (e.g. Battlestar Galactica: Season One) or comment on general trends I've noticed (e.g. Universal Combo Format discs being the most likely to have scratches) in "public".
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Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*