Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*
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**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106* - Page 68

post #2011 of 3878
11/27/07 at 9:52am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I'm not sure if the article means Onkyo is dropping their HD DVD player or if their European distribution company isn't going to be bringing any in. On the DVD side Denon has shown that there is still a high end market since they can sell $3500+ DVD players when you can buy a $30 one at Target. I think it would be wise for Toshiba to phase out the XA2 and let Onkyo and other companies own the high end of the segment while they go for the low end.
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post #2012 of 3878
11/27/07 at 11:13am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich
I think it would be wise for Toshiba to phase out the XA2 and let Onkyo and other companies own the high end of the segment while they go for the low end.

Phase out their best built unit, something that can be acquired locally in favor of Onkyo, a brand, in my area, can't sell worth a damn and nobody bothers to even carry their product line, they sell so poorly. No, I don't think so. What would onkyo give you anyway, besides a rebadged toshiba offering.
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post #2013 of 3878
11/27/07 at 11:26am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Onkyo could do some tweaking... sometimes OEM "manufacturers" do stuff like that to try to differentiate re-badged gear. With such low profit margins on "affordable" HD DVD players, except for 'high end' esoteric gear, most manufactuers will want to re-badge since they won't recoup any serious R&D $$.

Remember when Faroudja rebadged a Toshiba player (which wasn't even progressive scan) and sold it for $4,000?!? I remember a client who bought one of those players. Rediculous!
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post #2014 of 3878
11/27/07 at 12:06pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I am sure Onkyo or ??? will continue to rebadge, but it may make sense for Toshiba to focus on the low and mid segments and let other OEM manufactures focus on the high end. Onkyo has an Integra model coming out and that is something that custom installers would sell over the no margin Toshiba. Besides, Toshiba has 4 current players and that is a lot of SKUs for retailers to stock for such a small segment.
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post #2015 of 3878
11/27/07 at 12:09pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Agreed. A higher-priced/performance/quality Integra model is just the sort of arena where another manufacturer could produce HD DVD hardware and still make money. They won't sell in large volume, but these higher-end units never do anyway: they're always aimed towards custom installations and audiophile/videophile consumers. I wonder if the integra model is also based on a rebadge or if it's a ground-up player? Onkyo could also make a $$ universal player. That would be sweet... so far the only universals are by companies like LG... would be cool if a "high end" universal was available by a name like Onkyo.
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post #2016 of 3878
11/27/07 at 12:17pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich
I'm not sure if the article means Onkyo is dropping their HD DVD player or if their European distribution company isn't going to be bringing any in. On the DVD side Denon has shown that there is still a high end market since they can sell $3500+ DVD players when you can buy a $30 one at Target. I think it would be wise for Toshiba to phase out the XA2 and let Onkyo and other companies own the high end of the segment while they go for the low end.
Onkyo stills shows it on their Website. My guess is that it will still be made. At an 899.99 price point, I doubt it will have a problem moving. I also doubt that they expected to sell any more than the Pioneer Elite on the BD side.
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post #2017 of 3878
11/27/07 at 1:20pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

The whole landscape will change once one (or preferably: more than one!) good combo player hits the market. When you can get a good combo at a reasonable price, you're probably no longer willing to fork out a same amount of money for a one-format machine.

Like the 45rpm (-only) record players, they will only be purchased in the lower price segment then (if at all).


Cees
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post #2018 of 3878
11/27/07 at 1:29pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

The Integra is a rebadged XA2 as well, (maybe better to call it a rebadged Onkyo 805?)

Expect to see at least one high end universal player (DVD, SACD, DVD-A, BD, HD DVD) player at CES.
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post #2019 of 3878
11/27/07 at 1:36pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

It's possible that Onkyo COULD display a $1000 Universal player at CES. IF they've decided to drop a $899 HD-DVD player, it would make little sense to make a BD only player or another HD-DVD player at this price point. I think in the next several months, the $500 and up hardware segment will likely be reserved for combo players. Panasonic have sworn that they'd never make such a machine, but if the format war continues, they will inevitably have no choice. Once the first combo player dips below $500, many of the stand-alones priced in this segment will lose much of their luster, espeically if a sub $500 combo machine performs as well as devoted stand-alones.
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post #2020 of 3878
11/27/07 at 2:04pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I think that the problem with an "affordable" combo is that it actually costs twice as much (or close to it) to make a combo player.

LG isn't exactly high-end gear, yet their combo player is $999. I'm sure if they could price it more attractively to generate higher sales, they would. When a combo player costs $499 is probably when HD DVD and BD hardware both cost ~ $250 (without artificial price reductions below profit margin).

Quote:
Expect to see at least one high end universal player (DVD, SACD, DVD-A, BD, HD DVD) player at CES.

Any hints? Have you heard anything?
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post #2021 of 3878
11/27/07 at 2:49pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Well, the first price we saw for the Samsung was ~ $780, if I remember correctly. That will certainly go down a bit further once the machine really hits the market.
If other manufacturers would step in, I bet even lower prices may soon show up. It will also be depending on the specs, I guess.

BTW, it's not just price, I wonder if *anyone* in the know would be happy to purchase a BD-player now: what will be the BD-level you really want to own for the next period?

To me (unless either price or specs are very bad), a combo-player is the logical next step.


Cees
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post #2022 of 3878
11/27/07 at 4:43pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
BTW, it's not just price, I wonder if *anyone* in the know would be happy to purchase a BD-player now: what will be the BD-level you really want to own for the next period?

You mean because of the in-flux spec issue? players shipped now must conform to 1.1 (PIP) though internet connectivity is still not obtained by any (2.0) players.

The word is that the PS3 will be updateble to full 2.0 status. That turned out to be the wisest first-generation purchase many of us could have made (as far as BD flavors go).
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post #2023 of 3878
11/28/07 at 4:13am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Yes, the PS3 was a very good choice indeed!

I almost bought one myself, but in this case I didn't dare to import and the European PS3s were not only much more expensive, but also, and of paramount importance to me, region B exclusive.
(All of my BDs are Region A, or at least the case says so.)

Now, as said, I'm waiting for a good combo player.


Cees
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post #2024 of 3878
11/28/07 at 6:55am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I had forgotten about that lower cost Samsung dual-format player. Is it profile 1.1 for PIP on BD? On paper it seems to be a fully functional HD DVD player (HDi) as well.

Anyone have that player and can comment on its performance? I read that the 1080p24 output was only for BD. Is that true?
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post #2025 of 3878
11/28/07 at 9:21am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Is it profile 1.1 for PIP on BD?
Yes. They promised a firmware upgrade to 1.1 for January. That was before they delayed it so it could come out of the box with it.
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post #2026 of 3878
11/28/07 at 8:06pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
That was before they delayed it so it could come out of the box with it.
Did a Samsung rep explicitly say this is the reason for the delay?
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post #2027 of 3878
11/29/07 at 1:38pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Onkyo could do some tweaking... sometimes OEM "manufacturers" do stuff like that to try to differentiate re-badged gear. With such low profit margins on "affordable" HD DVD players, except for 'high end' esoteric gear, most manufactuers will want to re-badge since they won't recoup any serious R&D $$.

Remember when Faroudja rebadged a Toshiba player (which wasn't even progressive scan) and sold it for $4,000?!? I remember a client who bought one of those players. Rediculous!

You just stated the reason why I don't want Toshiba dumping the XA2. I think its also ridiculous that a company looking to offer a high def player appealing to HT enthusiasts would carry a player line that is designed just around affordability. WTF happened to quality? Cheaper players mean cheaper components. I want a quality player that will last me several years, not a cheaply built pile of junk that I throw out after a year. I have a sony 7000 dvd player that is 10 years old, not only does is still work, it works well.

If toshiba stops making the XA2, there'll be nothing for onkyo to rebadge. Then what?
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post #2028 of 3878
11/29/07 at 2:55pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Did a Samsung rep explicitly say this is the reason for the delay?
No. They haven't said at all what the reason was.
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post #2029 of 3878
11/29/07 at 6:30pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
If toshiba stops making the XA2, there'll be nothing for onkyo to rebadge. Then what?

Peter, I can't speak for David, but I stated almost the same thing. I think it would make sense for Toshiba to OEM out the XA2 to other manufactures and not sell it as a Toshiba but as a Onkyo, Integra, or ? model. That way the low to mid end players will be Toshiba and the High end will be Onkyo, Integra or ?
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post #2030 of 3878
11/29/07 at 7:54pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Peter, I can't speak for David, but I stated almost the same thing. I think it would make sense for Toshiba to OEM out the XA2 to other manufactures and not sell it as a Toshiba but as a Onkyo, Integra, or ? model. That way the low to mid end players will be Toshiba and the High end will be Onkyo, Integra or ?

My exact thought. Keep the budget/lower-end with the Tosh badge and let the upper-end manufacturers rebadge the better unit (with no corresponding Toshiba model for direct-sell).
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post #2031 of 3878
11/29/07 at 8:51pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Martin
No. They haven't said at all what the reason was.
Then may I proffer a gentle admonition that one not say it is if it ain't so. It's hard enough parsing facts from "FUD."
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post #2032 of 3878
11/29/07 at 9:43pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
My exact thought. Keep the budget/lower-end with the Tosh badge and let the upper-end manufacturers rebadge the better unit (with no corresponding Toshiba model for direct-sell).

Agreed.

Toshiba already has enough SKU's for their players which are carried by all major chains (save for Target until the New Year). Most of the stores I've gone to no longer stock the XA2, so despite Toshiba's denials, I think an XA3 is likely on the way.

They could/should OEM out an XA3 design to Onkyo, Marantz, HK, Denon or even Yamaha (wonder what they're up to?). These companies can then tweak it as they see fit. This will at least give HD-DVD the visibility of having some high-end support. No one ever really thinks of Toshiba as high-end anyway, so it would certainly be easier for Toshiba to have Denon sell an oem'd XA3 at $1200 than to sell it themselves at $800.
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post #2033 of 3878
11/30/07 at 2:57am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Except that I don't think there's any room in the market for high-end single-format players once the combo players are out.


BTW, didn't Toshiba and Samsung integrate their Optical Media departments (as well as their Storage solutions) since 2004, or so? New common headquarter in Japan?


Cees
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post #2034 of 3878
11/30/07 at 3:40am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
Except that I don't think there's any room in the market for high-end single-format players once the combo players are out.


BTW, didn't Toshiba and Samsung integrate their Optical Media departments (as well as their Storage solutions) since 2004, or so? New common headquarter in Japan?


Cees

That's a good point Cees.

People with that kind of coin to burn on high-end gear will likely opt for a dual format player at prices over 1K. If there was no format war, it might be different. It's not worth the risk to gamble on one format when your're dropping lots of coin on a player. At some point, I do think NAD, Marantz, Arcam, Rotel, Meridian & other high-end companies will eventually jump in with pricey combo solutions.
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post #2035 of 3878
11/30/07 at 7:24am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Then may I proffer a gentle admonition that one not say it is if it ain't so. It's hard enough parsing facts from "FUD."
That's why I said MAY. If I said it was a fact, you could scream all you want. I'm merely speculating like everyone else.

What we know is:
Samsung Promised a firmware upgrade for Profile 1.1 on the combo player.
Samsung delayed the player into January(the same month the upgrade was supposed to happen).

You can speculate the rest all you want.
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post #2036 of 3878
11/30/07 at 7:28am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Except that I don't think there's any room in the market for high-end single-format players once the combo players are out.

Yes, "high-end" combos will attract high-end buyers over high-end single-format players... if and when we see a "high end" combo unit!

There's rumor that the Meridian player might be revealed as a combo at CES.
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post #2037 of 3878
11/30/07 at 8:27am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Martin
That's why I said MAY. If I said it was a fact, you could scream all you want. I'm merely speculating like everyone else.

What we know is:
Samsung Promised a firmware upgrade for Profile 1.1 on the combo player.
Samsung delayed the player into January(the same month the upgrade was supposed to happen).

You can speculate the rest all you want.
OMG what are you talking about? Either you're missing something, I am, or you get this week's Pot Calling the Kettle Award.

You said: "That was before [Samsung] delayed [the player] so it could come out of the box with [1.1]."

I asked if a Samsung rep actually said this.

You said "no."

On that basis, one can't say one way or the other what the reason for the delay is. It's certainly not accurate to phrase it as definitively as you do in your post 2025, in which the word "may" does not appear.
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post #2038 of 3878
11/30/07 at 10:51am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

The post said "Could". Could and may are the same thing. If I said would, then I'm posting fact.
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post #2039 of 3878
11/30/07 at 2:00pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Shane:

Now I understand the basis for the difference in understandings. You wrote:

"That was before they delayed it so it could come out of the box with it."

I understood that to mean: 'That was before they delayed it so it can come out of the box with it.'

Sorry. You meant that the delay could point to the possibility that the player will indeed be 1.1-compliant. I misread that you meant the delay is ipso facto indication that the player will be 1.1-compliant upon release.

Amazing how the absence of a comma that (arguably) should have been in that sentence changes its reading.

That was before they delayed it, so it could come out of the box with it.

It will be interesting to see if the player is delayed again which, knowing Samsung, could happen. What would that mean? Then they'll really have some explaining to do.
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post #2040 of 3878
11/30/07 at 5:44pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Understood. Conveying what we mean and having the other person understand using a web board can't be difficult. We all do it. Atleast I try not to use all bold type and big fonts
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Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*