Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*
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**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106* - Page 66

post #1951 of 3878
11/16/07 at 7:30am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
this mysterious "filmmixer"
He's not "mysterious". His identity has been verified by AVS.
Quote:
It´s just one opinion from one guy in one online-forum. Sure, the "guy" is professional - no doubt
Yes, and I have not seen his opinion contradicted by a single industry professional with access to the same listening conditions, ie the film master vs DD+ under blind conditions. I do find that interesting.

Quote:
CE manufacturers don't care two hoots about how much more or less software sells on a format.
Really? Is that why laserdisc manufacturers are still making players (NOT)? After all, there were HUNDREDS of people who still wanted to buy laserdiscs five years ago (when the last laserdisc was made), weren't there?

Quote:
HD-DVD could outsell Blu-Ray 10:1 in software sales and it would still not make any other CE manufacturer offer HD-DVD players
Why? Who says ALL players have to be the same price (David makes the same argument with respect to PS3 pricing, BTW)?
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post #1952 of 3878
11/16/07 at 7:40am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Really? Is that why laserdisc manufacturers are still making players (NOT)? After all, there were HUNDREDS of people who still wanted to buy laserdiscs five years ago (when the last laserdisc was made), weren't there?

You missed his point. He said that if you can't make money selling player, it doesn't matter how many movies are being sold. If Chinese manufacturers join Toshiba and continue to undercut potential profits by other major brandes, why would they EVERY make a competitively-priced player and lose money?

Quote:
Why? Who says ALL players have to be the same price (David makes the same argument with respect to PS3 pricing, BTW)?

Granted.

You might see some "high end" HD DVD players that can set their own price (ie, Onkyo and Meridian), but that hardly plays into the "win the war with cheap players!" mantra.
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post #1953 of 3878
11/16/07 at 7:59am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
You might see some "high end" HD DVD players that can set their own price (ie, Onkyo and Meridian), but that hardly plays into the "win the war with cheap players!" mantra.
I don't think the market has to be divided into ONLY two segments (ultra cheap and ultra high end), David. I think there's room for more tiers.

By the way, I feel I should reiterate that my critical comments about BR come from the perspective of someone who was a SUPPORTER of the format based solely on a comparison of tech specs between the two formats a few years ago, but who has now taken a "you'd damn well better SHOW me what you have, and I'm going to CONSTANTLY hold your feet to the fire until you DO" attitude, based on the fact that reality doesn't always match technical and/or market promises.
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post #1954 of 3878
11/16/07 at 9:30am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Averry
........there's so many things I could say, funny things, and I just want to be sarcastic. However, I'll refrain.

Go nuts, man -- I'm all for comedy!

But I'm totally serious about what I said. The PS3 is a ridiculous value for what it does. The fact that not everyone cares about what it does is completely irrelevant.

Like I said -- the fact that the average person isn't interested in a $50,000 Aston Martin doesn't mean that it wouldn't be an incredible deal on its own merits.
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post #1955 of 3878
11/16/07 at 9:33am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
Why? Who says ALL players have to be the same price?

Toshiba can afford to sell a player at cost because it'll make money on the software royalties.

Other manufacturers, who would have to charge enough for a player to make a profit on it, would have to offer added value over the Toshiba players in order to make creating and selling the product worthwhile. The questions become what is that profitable price point, and what value can they add to convince consumers to pay that price?
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post #1956 of 3878
11/16/07 at 2:14pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Other manufacturers, who would have to charge enough for a player to make a profit on it, would have to offer added value over the Toshiba players in order to make creating and selling the product worthwhile. The questions become what is that profitable price point, and what value can they add to convince consumers to pay that price?
Who cares and so what? What difference does it make if Toshiba is the sole supplier of HD-DVD players at these super cheap prices or there are 5 manufacturers to choose from? BR isn't any cheaper or any better for having multiple manufacturers. In fact BR seems to be replicating the issues that DVD had starting out where each manufacturer had a different very small set of movies that it couldn't play. Thank goodness they had the foresight to add upgradable firmware to fix it as needed.

The only reason HD-DVD needs multiple manufacturers are:
1. Toshiba tried to use their monopoly on players to drive up the price to an obscene amount. Clearly they are doing the opposite.
2. Toshiba cannot keep up with demand for the players. If you paid attention to what really happened with DVD and assuming the same adoption rate, that won't happen until Xmas 2009. In the last 3 months of 2000, almost as many DVD players were sold as were sold in the previous 42 months. So we still have two years to go and a lot can change in two years.
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post #1957 of 3878
11/16/07 at 2:47pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Um. . .don't ask me who cares and so what, I was just responding to Robert's question. I don't particularly care how many companies are making HD-DVD players as long as Toshiba's selling 'em so cheaply.

The only issue I can see is that other manufacturers, if there is some effect they could have, would probably give their support to the format that allows them to make a profit. Who knows if they have that ability though.
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post #1958 of 3878
11/16/07 at 2:49pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

(EDIT: Whoops, meant to post this in the other thread. But I'll leave it here too 'cause it's just so wacky!)

This just in from the Spanish Inquisition Dept. . .the PS3 outsold the Wii in Japan last week.

Zounds!
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post #1959 of 3878
11/16/07 at 3:32pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
You missed his point. He said that if you can't make money selling player, it doesn't matter how many movies are being sold. If Chinese manufacturers join Toshiba and continue to undercut potential profits by other major brandes, why would they EVERY make a competitively-priced player and lose money?



Granted.

You might see some "high end" HD DVD players that can set their own price (ie, Onkyo and Meridian), but that hardly plays into the "win the war with cheap players!" mantra.

As long as someone is making the players, and the public is happy with them, who cares if there is only one company making them.

And frankly who cares if all the companies making them are Chinese? As long as the do what they are supposed to do.

Doug

Edit: Chuck I posted before I saw your comments.
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post #1960 of 3878
11/16/07 at 3:42pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanjay Gupta
CE manufacturers don't care two hoots about how much more or less software sells on a format. All they care about is making a profit on the hardware and the hard fact is that Toshiba has made it impossible for anyone else to market a HD-DVD player to the general masses and still make money.
And Sony hasn't with a 399.99 PS3? Give me a break. No one is making a profit on either side. On the BD side, their are too many manufacturers biding for a near non-existent market (after the PS3 gobbles up most) for them ever to make back their development costs. And the prices on the BD players, like the HD DVD players, has been cut over 50 % over the last 9 or 10 months. If the market doesn't turn around for the BD stand alones, I expect some to drop out of the market, or go the way of Samsung and LG by moving into dual format players.
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post #1961 of 3878
11/16/07 at 7:03pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
I´m ready to shell around 1000-1300$ to a new HDMI 1.3 receiver

I know this is off topic, but I have the Denon AVR-3808 and am very happy with it. It's at the top end of your range (on sale), but worth every penny.
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post #1962 of 3878
11/16/07 at 9:16pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Man I'm off today... I didn't realize this was already a page or two back. O'well

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppltd
They will have it when they have it. Until then, just promises.

I was about to post something along the lines of "and we know how well those have held up this year". But thinking back over this past year I was surprised how well hardware promises have been kept. The only one that I could think of that hasn't come through is TotalHD. If only my memory were as void when it comes to software...
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post #1963 of 3878
11/17/07 at 5:37am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppltd
And Sony hasn't with a 399.99 PS3?
Sony is the only manufacturer of PS3s thus the same situation does not apply. Time and time again, many people here have pointed out that most people will not buy a gaming console instead of a stand alone player. Personally though, I do think that the PS3 has definately cannabalized 'some' of the sales of standalone Blu-Ray players. But even then $399 compared to $99 leaves a lot of room for the other Blu-Ray manufacturers to make some money.
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post #1964 of 3878
11/17/07 at 6:17am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

The business model that Toshiba is using is not that unknown. It's simply giving away the razor and making money on the blades.

Also what Toshiba is doing is to take both ends at the same time. The lower priced model appeals to many consumers who would not pay blu-ray prices period. It also is a nice place to start to give it a test spin. There is room for higher end models but apparently manufacturers want the public to only have high priced models. Without hd-dvd, blu-ray would be closer to $1000.
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post #1965 of 3878
11/17/07 at 4:01pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancisP
The business model that Toshiba is using is not that unknown. It's simply giving away the razor and making money on the blades.


When I turned 18, I got a free razor in the mail to promote the razor.


I grow facial hair like a 12 year old however, and the same conversation happend at least 5 times.


"Hey, it looks like you need to shave some of that peach fuzz"

Me-"Yeah, actually I got a free fusion in the mail, but I haven't used it yet"

"Well, you don't need it that bad, you barely have any facial hair give it to me"




So it went from, you need to shave, to I got a free razor, to GIVE ME THAT RAZOR you dont' need it.

It was a very confusing time in my life. I turn 20 in a few months and it's still economical to individually pluck each hair off.
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post #1966 of 3878
11/17/07 at 6:04pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Averry
When I turned 18, I got a free razor in the mail to promote the razor.
I grow facial hair like a 12 year old however, and the same conversation happend at least 5 times.

"Hey, it looks like you need to shave some of that peach fuzz"

Me-"Yeah, actually I got a free fusion in the mail, but I haven't used it yet"

"Well, you don't need it that bad, you barely have any facial hair give it to me"

So it went from, you need to shave, to I got a free razor, to GIVE ME THAT RAZOR you dont' need it.

It was a very confusing time in my life. I turn 20 in a few months and it's still economical to individually pluck each hair off.
That's funny. But you kno what is funnier i the thouht that crossed my mind as I read your post. That the 'razor give away' seems like a good analogy of the Hd-DVD $99 fire sale, since it seems to have not generated the substantil increase in software sales, it seems like that based on the neilsen numbers for the week, that the HD-DVD group were looking for.
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post #1967 of 3878
11/17/07 at 11:08pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanjay Gupta
That's funny. But you kno what is funnier i the thouht that crossed my mind as I read your post. That the 'razor give away' seems like a good analogy of the Hd-DVD $99 fire sale, since it seems to have not generated the substantil increase in software sales, it seems like that based on the neilsen numbers for the week, that the HD-DVD group were looking for.


It's definately like that. The whole, give away movies with the player is interesting. Because they are already giving you a few of the razors with it. That means less razor buying.



Seriously, my mustache looks good from the front, but terrible from the side.

*hangs head in shame*
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post #1968 of 3878
11/18/07 at 8:13am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanjay Gupta
Sony is the only manufacturer of PS3s thus the same situation does not apply. Time and time again, many people here have pointed out that most people will not buy a gaming console instead of a stand alone player. Personally though, I do think that the PS3 has definately cannabalized 'some' of the sales of standalone Blu-Ray players. But even then $399 compared to $99 leaves a lot of room for the other Blu-Ray manufacturers to make some money.
The problem here s that most BD owners have chosen the PS3 over standalone players. The five or six CE manufacturers producing stand alone players for BD have a very small sales market to sell to (much smaller than Toshiba's sales), and have to further divide by every manufacture producing BD stand alones. They will not likely see a profit for many years, if ever.

With Toshiba's current marketing model, when the market (if it ever does) open's up, other manufacturers can jump into the HD DVD market with little R & D, as Toshiba will have already done it for them.

At this time in the marketing of BD and HD DVD, there is little value to having multiple manufacturers.
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post #1969 of 3878
11/18/07 at 10:20am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I can't think of a good reason *other than analog outputs* to buy a stand alone player vs. a PS3.


Maybe not wanting a gaming system, but It would operate just like a standalone with the remote, so I think that's a bad reason to say.
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post #1970 of 3878
11/18/07 at 10:48am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanjay Gupta
That's funny. But you kno what is funnier i the thouht that crossed my mind as I read your post. That the 'razor give away' seems like a good analogy of the Hd-DVD $99 fire sale, since it seems to have not generated the substantil increase in software sales, it seems like that based on the neilsen numbers for the week, that the HD-DVD group were looking for.
I'm waiting for BOGO sales myself. Also I'll bet a lot of those players are sitting under X-mas trees.
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post #1971 of 3878
11/18/07 at 10:57am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigluigi
I'm waiting for BOGO sales myself. Also I'll bet a lot of those players are sitting under X-mas trees.

You also have to figure that the HD-DVD players came with free movies, so there's very little need to purchase movies right away. They will be buying more movies in the near future though.
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post #1972 of 3878
11/18/07 at 12:02pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigluigi
Also I'll bet a lot of those players are sitting under X-mas trees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Colella
You also have to figure that the HD-DVD players came with free movies, so there's very little need to purchase movies right away. They will be buying more movies in the near future though.
And the guys that bought a couple of players to sell on eBay.
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post #1973 of 3878
11/18/07 at 5:23pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppltd
I expect some to drop out of the market, or go the way of Samsung and LG by moving into dual format players.
This is exactly what I'm thinking, Thomas. I just saw a print ad for the LG SuperBlu and thought, "If the price is right, that's the way I'd go. I can watch all the movies I want and not worry about whether or not it will play on my player."

The key is putting out a dual format player that is competitively priced as compared to buying both a $99 HD DVD player and a $399 PS3. The manufacturer who pulls that off will make money faster than a one-armed bandit.
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post #1974 of 3878
11/18/07 at 6:27pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Silverman

Like I said -- the fact that the average person isn't interested in a $50,000 Aston Martin doesn't mean that it wouldn't be an incredible deal on its own merits.

Aaron, PLEASE point the way to that brand new $50,000 Aston Martin!
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post #1975 of 3878
11/18/07 at 8:22pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

The A3 is $199 all over the internet.


Amazon has it plus 2 movies at the checkout, with Bourne and 300 included in the box, plus 5 mail in.


Good deal for somebody getting in.
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post #1976 of 3878
11/18/07 at 9:06pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
Aaron, PLEASE point the way to that brand new $50,000 Aston Martin!


Even if I got the Aston Martin free, I couldn't afford the insurance on it!

Doug
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post #1977 of 3878
11/19/07 at 1:03am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Even if I got the Aston Martin free, I couldn't afford the insurance on it!

Doug

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post #1978 of 3878
11/19/07 at 2:19pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

You guys are killin' me here!!!
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post #1979 of 3878
11/19/07 at 10:37pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
I can't think of a good reason *other than analog outputs* to buy a stand alone player vs. a PS3.

fan noise.
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post #1980 of 3878
11/19/07 at 10:46pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricW
fan noise.



Why?


Stand Alones are the same price and or more expensive, slower, and can't play games.


Duh.
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Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*