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**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106* - Page 65

post #1921 of 3878
11/15/07 at 10:50am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

The new Panasonic BD30 is profile 1.1 and seems, from my initial impressions, to be a very good player. No internet connection and I hear there are some issues with how it decodes (or doesn't decode) DTS-MA, but otherwise it looks to be the best non-PS3 player on the market. And for $500.
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post #1922 of 3878
11/15/07 at 11:05am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I should have mentioned that "full featured" to me includes the ability to output decoded True HD and PCM via analog outputs. From what I read after seeing your post, the BD30 doesn't qualify. I'd be happy to know of any other candidates (if there are any).
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post #1923 of 3878
11/15/07 at 11:38am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
I should have mentioned that "full featured" to me includes the ability to output decoded True HD and PCM via analog outputs.

Well sure, "analog out" is a plus, but HDMI-receiver is still what we all probably have at some point in time.. So I don´t see that analog out is THAT important (at least I don´t skip any players for the lack of that alone).
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post #1924 of 3878
11/15/07 at 11:54am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppltd
They will have it when they have it. Until then, just promises.

So far they´ve really delivered. If PS3 is not supporting profile 1.1, I definitely feel cheated in some ways. That would end my "honeymoon" with the console.

But at the moment, I´m not worried.
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post #1925 of 3878
11/15/07 at 11:57am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
. But it's hurt because it's caused other manufacturers to sit on the side-lines or invest in BD where hardware sales profits are more rewarding.

Your saying Toshiba is hurting because it's not sharing the wealth with other manufacturers near term or long term. It just depends on your perspective doesn't it. If I were running a business, I would prefer to be an exclusive manufacturer and distributor of a product and enjoy the added freedom of making business decisions without having to consult other rival manufacturers. What you view as a negative, I view as a positive.

I do know the history of this format war. My comment was more reflective of Toshiba's uncanny ability to manufacture quality electronic products at 1/2 the price of the competitors product. And I think VALUE will determine the winner in this format war. Tosh has the value...we both agree on that.
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post #1926 of 3878
11/15/07 at 12:07pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Well sure, "analog out" is a plus
No, for ME it's a requirement. Period. Toshiba has been doing it from the very start, so such a requirement is hardly unreasonable.
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post #1927 of 3878
11/15/07 at 12:10pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Very strong indications (the same source that's been right about the PS3 updates so far) say that the PS3 will be upgradeable to profile 2.0 with full DTS-HD MA decoding.

The thing the PS3 will probably always lack is the ability to pass decoded multi-channel out over analog (I don't think it has multi-channel d/a converting internally) and it can't stream the raw TrueHD and DTS-HD streams over HDMI to an outboard decoder bcs it used an early version of the 1.3 HDMI chipset (though one could still get full lossless going extracted PCM over HDMI).

In any case, it is a *royal* shame that no decent stand-alone BD player offers advanced audio *and* an internet connection... regardless of price. That is certainly where HD DVD hardware specs had it together from the start. In 2-3 years it will all be a non-issue as all players (of both varieties if they both survive) will have everything, but for now the PS3 seems to offer the fewest trade-offs in the BD camp. Any indications that the Tosh HD DVD players will be upgradeable to DTS-HD MA decoding? That was left out of the spec at launch bcs DTS didn't have their stuff together, though they do now and some HD DVD software that non-US uses DTS HD MA.
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post #1928 of 3878
11/15/07 at 12:13pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
In 2-3 years it will all be a non-issue
It's a shame that a format asks people to wait more than 4 years to work out major "issues".
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post #1929 of 3878
11/15/07 at 12:39pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Maybe by that time HD DVD will have worked out 51GB tri-layer discs...



And it will probably be much sooner than that before BD hardware with 2.0 spec is standardized for sale. I think it was last month that was the deadline for 1.0. Anybody remember the date for 2.0?
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post #1930 of 3878
11/15/07 at 12:57pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Maybe by that time HD DVD will have worked out 51GB tri-layer discs...
You mean the discs I don't care about, and the absence of which hasn't kept me from buying into the format (or anyone else that I've seen)?
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post #1931 of 3878
11/15/07 at 1:03pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

For someone who cares so much about getting that lossless audio over analog, wouldn't it be nice to have lossless audio on your Transformers HD DVD? Paramount didn't have room on 30GB HD DVD to provide it.

Quote:
You mean the discs I don't care about, and the absence of which hasn't kept me from buying into the format (or anyone else that I've seen)?

So far that's the way most consumers seem to feel about "web features" (which 2.0 spec brings) given the way 300 on BD outsold 300 on HD DVD. In other words, what BD has yet to deliver hasn't stopped consumers either.

(Personally, I want ethernet to allow for convenient firmware updating, though I could care less about web-features per-se)
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post #1932 of 3878
11/15/07 at 1:15pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
So far that's the way most consumers seem to feel about "web features" (which 2.0 spec brings) given the way 300 on BD outsold 300 on HD DVD. In other words, what BD has yet to deliver hasn't stopped consumers either.
Let's see how the general consumer, if and when he ever buys into the HD market, feels about be required to burn a CD to update the firmware (with what seems like an endless stream of updates). that ought to go over like a ton of bricks. At that point, the lack of network capability is going to come back and bite the players.
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post #1933 of 3878
11/15/07 at 1:17pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigluigi
I do know the history of this format war. My comment was more reflective of Toshiba's uncanny ability to manufacture quality electronic products at 1/2 the price of the competitors product. And I think VALUE will determine the winner in this format war. Tosh has the value...we both agree on that.

There's nothing uncanny about it -- they can sell the players so cheaply because they plan to make up the difference in royalty payments on the technology from the content providers.

My $98 HD-A2 was a great value (today I'm leaning towards keeping it ). On the other hand, so was my $350 60 GB PS3 (and, frankly, it would've been a great value at $500).

IMO the PS3 could be the greatest "value" in the history of consumer electronics. That's not to say that everybody should be interested in everything it has to offer -- a $50,000 Aston Martin would be an awesome value as well, but I personally wouldn't spend that kind of money on a car regardless of its features.

Well, maybe if it was that DB5 with the machine guns and ejection seat. . .
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post #1934 of 3878
11/15/07 at 1:17pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
For someone who cares so much about getting that lossless audio over analog, wouldn't it be nice to have lossless audio on your Transformers HD DVD? Paramount didn't have room on 30GB HD DVD to provide it.
As it turns out, the Transformers Audio was near perfect. I doubt that a lossless track would have added much, if anything. But I guess we will never know.
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post #1935 of 3878
11/15/07 at 1:19pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppltd
Let's see how the general consumer, if and when he ever buys into the HD market, feels about be required to burn a CD to update the firmware (with what seems like an endless stream of updates). that ought to go over like a ton of bricks. At that point, the lack of network capability is going to come back and bite the players.

I agree that firmware updates are a hassle, but considering the fact that even the $350 laptop I got at Walmart has a CD burner and wireless networking built in, burning a CD from a downloaded ISO may be more convenient for a lot of people than setting up an extra ethernet connection in their living rooms.
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post #1936 of 3878
11/15/07 at 1:20pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Silverman
a $50,000 Aston Martin would be an awesome value as well, but I personally wouldn't spend that kind of money on a car regardless of its features.
Tell me where you found that $50,000 Aston and I am all over it...
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post #1937 of 3878
11/15/07 at 1:20pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppltd
As it turns out, the Transformers Audio was near perfect. I doubt that a lossless track would have added much, if anything. But I guess we will never know.

Sure we will -- just wait a couple of years for the *next* A/V format!
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post #1938 of 3878
11/15/07 at 1:29pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
For someone who cares so much about getting that lossless audio over analog, wouldn't it be nice to have lossless audio on your Transformers HD DVD? Paramount didn't have room on 30GB HD DVD to provide it.

If some person is a HD DVD-supporter, then he suddenly "doesn´t care about lossless" in Paramount-releases, but wants that 5.1 analog out on Blu-ray-player.. No analog out in Blu-ray = bad. No lossless in HD DVD = good enough. Always look at the bright side of...

Seriously speaking, it´s obvious that Paramount doesn´t really care about lossless. Not sure how "format related" it´s in the end..
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post #1939 of 3878
11/15/07 at 1:35pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
For someone who cares so much about getting that lossless audio over analog, wouldn't it be nice to have lossless audio on your Transformers HD DVD?
I’d need the analog connections for Dolby Digital Plus as well. Too bad I can’t seem to find any BR players in the price range that have it.
Quote:
Paramount didn't have room on 30GB HD DVD to provide it.
Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t (it’s not known for sure). I’ve posted the opinion of “Filmmixer” from AVS, who has stated that he cannot tell the difference between 1.5 Mbps DD+ and the film master (NOT encoded to another format) in a blind test. I’ve asked if anyone can contradict his experience who has listened under the SAME master vs. DD+ conditions he has, and have yet to hear from anyone.
Quote:
You mean the discs I don't care about, and the absence of which hasn't kept me from buying into the format (or anyone else that I've seen)?

Quote:
So far that's the way most consumers seem to feel about "web features”
Do consumers also not care about not having decoded analog outs combined with low prices? How about fully functional/debugged BD Java? And Ethernet would be nice to have for firmware updates (I wonder why it wasn’t included from the start).
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post #1940 of 3878
11/15/07 at 3:35pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
So far that's the way most consumers seem to feel about "web features" (which 2.0 spec brings) given the way 300 on BD outsold 300 on HD DVD. In other words, what BD has yet to deliver hasn't stopped consumers either.
On the BD side of the house, I guess it is either true, or it simply that they have no choice. My guess it is the later.
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post #1941 of 3878
11/15/07 at 3:42pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Robert,

we both agree about wanting networking if, for no other reason, than to provide easy updates. Not having that from the start was a stupid decision on the part of the BD group (who were bending to pressure from the manufacturers not to require it before 2.0). I agree that firmware updates via disc are a pain... though so far it hasn't (to my surprise) stopped folks from buying those Disney BDs with Java (that sometimes require updates to play).

Quote:
Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t (it’s not known for sure).

Paramount reps told Peter Bracke at a confernece that the lack of space on the 30GB HD DVD was the reason it wasn't provided. That's been well documented and discussed. The conversation he had (which he report on in his review) appears to be legit (and Paramount has not reversed that statement).

Yes, and we all know FilmMixer and Amir both say that they can't hear the difference between 1.5 kbps lossy DD and uncompressed. Ironic considering that lossless codecs such as TrueHD on the Spiderman 3 disc don't sound identical to their PCM counterparts (for whatever reason). This is confirmed by folks doing full TrueHD decoding over HDMI (not just 2.0 PCM over SPDIF).

I'll be getting the Marantz SR7002 shortly so I can do multi-channel lossless over HDMI without downfolding to stereo in my own system. Now... if the PS3 would get that DTS-HD MA update to us...



Quote:
On the BD side of the house, I guess it is either true, or it simply that they have no choice. My guess it is the later.

So if you like BD, it's because you have "no choice" about what it doesn't yet to (profile 2.0), but with HD DVD, what it can't do (like lossless on Transformers) or may or may not do in the future (51GB) is just stuff that nobody would ever care about?

I guess BD consumers are more discriminating...

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post #1942 of 3878
11/15/07 at 4:29pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Silverman
IMO the PS3 could be the greatest "value" in the history of consumer electronics.
Personally that is exactly what I have felt about the PS3 since the very first day I lay my hands on one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
I guess BD consumers are more discriminating...
Discerning and Discriminating, the most telling words in this entire HD format war.

Considering that I have sworn myself off 'format war' talk, that's all I will venture to say. In any case I am way too tired even thinking about responding to some of the same old rhetoric from the 'usual suspects'. But you, David are doing a great job so please continue.
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post #1943 of 3878
11/15/07 at 4:44pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanjay Gupta
Personally that is exactly what I have felt about the PS3 since the very first day I lay my hands on one.

Unfortunately for Sony, most people don't feel it has great value - as we can see by the NDP numbers that were just released for October. They're hurtin'.
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post #1944 of 3878
11/15/07 at 5:09pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
So if you like BD, it's because you have "no choice" about what it doesn't yet to (profile 2.0), but with HD DVD, what it can't do (like lossless on Transformers) or may or may not do in the future (51GB) is just stuff that nobody would ever care about?

I guess BD consumers are more discriminating...
There is a great difference between what can not be done because the BDA decided not to include Web in it's mandatory requirements, and a studio deciding not to include Lossless, which would have been a simple matter of off loading the non-interactive special features to a second disk. BD consumers (which I am one) do not have a choice to watch WEB enabled content because the format does not support it.

And who, other than you, has mentioned the non-existent 51 GB HD DVD? It has the same likelihood of hitting the market as Profile 2.0.
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post #1945 of 3878
11/15/07 at 5:30pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Silverman

IMO the PS3 could be the greatest "value" in the history of consumer electronics.


........there's so many things I could say, funny things, and I just want to be sarcastic. However, I'll refrain.
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post #1946 of 3878
11/15/07 at 8:11pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
And it will probably be much sooner than that before BD hardware with 2.0 spec is standardized for sale. I think it was last month that was the deadline for 1.0. Anybody remember the date for 2.0?

David-If I remember correctly Profile 2.0 is always going to be optional.
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post #1947 of 3878
11/15/07 at 10:12pm

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
They absolutely know what they are doing. They're letting hardware sales profits take a back-seat to the priority of pricing their hardware low enough to encourage rapid player sales. This is a calculated strategy to try to gain market share for HD DVD early on in the format's life cycle while competition with BD is strong. It's worked as far as helping HD DVD get in the hands of more customers faster. But it's hurt because it's caused other manufacturers to sit on the side-lines or invest in BD where hardware sales profits are more rewarding.


In my opinion David the flaw in this logic is the assumption that people care about brand names. Most people just care about price. When you get players below $100, they become disposable like DVD players are now. People won't care if it says Toshiba or Onkyo or Venturer or some Walmart branded thing. If they can maintain these prices, with in a short period of time the 2 to 1 sales advantage that blu-ray has now will slip away.

If HD DVD starts outselling blu-ray by a large margin you can bet that other manufacturers will start making HD DVD players in a hurry.

All I'm saying here is that while lots of manufacturers in one camp can be an advantage, its only an advantage up to a point. Then price takes over.

Doug
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post #1948 of 3878
11/16/07 at 2:54am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

CE manufacturers don't care two hoots about how much more or less software sells on a format. All they care about is making a profit on the hardware and the hard fact is that Toshiba has made it impossible for anyone else to market a HD-DVD player to the general masses and still make money. That is why even when a LG or Samsung dablles in HD-DVD it is only with a dual format player. The reason being quite simply, ie. they can price the dual format player so that they still mke some money. HD-DVD could outsell Blu-Ray 10:1 in software sales and it would still not make any other CE manufacturer offer HD-DVD players atleast not as long as Toshibaa keeps giving away HD-DVD players almost for free.
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post #1949 of 3878
11/16/07 at 4:13am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
In my opinion David the flaw in this logic is the assumption that people care about brand names. Most people just care about price.

I would say "MANY people care about the price", not "most". People do care about the brand names. HD DVD (nor Blu-ray) doesn´t win the war with "Chinese players". Mark my word.
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post #1950 of 3878
11/16/07 at 4:26am

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
I’ve posted the opinion of “Filmmixer” from AVS, who has stated that he cannot tell the difference between 1.5 Mbps DD+ and the film master (NOT encoded to another format) in a blind test.

Oh boy, not this mysterious "filmmixer" again.. It´s just one opinion from one guy in one online-forum. Sure, the "guy" is professional - no doubt, but it doesn´t change anything; Just one opinion. Won´t change my opinion on anything.. Are we going to quote this guy forever?

I´m ready to shell around 1000-1300$ to a new HDMI 1.3 receiver (yes, it´ll be 1.3, so don´t even ask.. ), so I definitely want that studios would support lossless/PCM in their HD-releases (like many are doing). I won´t cry over them nor skip certain releases for that reason (nor I claim that 1.5mbps DD+ is "bad" in any way) - no, but I hope that other studios doesn´t follow Paramount´s example..

In the end, we can debate on this subject forever. Others prefer lossless/PCM, others don´t really care. Again the truth? It´s "out there".
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Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*