Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*
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**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106* - Page 64

post #1891 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickER
I dont know anyone that even knows what HD DVD or Blu-ray is. Well, i do have one friend who has a Blu-ray player, but no discs. They dont know that DVD itself is not HD. Why would they buy into either? Some of these people even own HD sets. Of course these are also the same kind of people that watch their pan and scan DVDs stretched on their HD TVs. Educated people with money, and they dont care, cause its just TV.

Rick sounds like you're falling down on the job! Get out there and edgimicate this people!

Doug
post #1892 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickER
I dont know anyone that even knows what HD DVD or Blu-ray is. Well, i do have one friend who has a Blu-ray player, but no discs. They dont know that DVD itself is not HD. Why would they buy into either? Some of these people even own HD sets. Of course these are also the same kind of people that watch their pan and scan DVDs stretched on their HD TVs. Educated people with money, and they dont care, cause its just TV.



Let God sort em out.
post #1893 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Talk about stretching out 4:3 video on a widescreen display. Every time I visit a casino here in Vegas the sports video is usually stretched out. Digital cable no doubt, not HD.
post #1894 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanjay Gupta
... But I think you are missing the point. The issue is not so much that HD-DVD cannot deliver the same quality as Blu-Ray today, but rather will it be able to do so in the long run, if/when the capacity and bandwith limitations of HD-DVD become an issue.

...


"Sound Advice: HD DVD leaves Blu-ray in the dust"

Saturday, November 10, 2007 - By Don Lindich

Quote:
Q: Do you have a preference between HD DVD and Blu-ray? --

RHETT ELTON,
Seattle

A: I enthusiastically recommend HD DVD because it's a better product and a better proposition for consumers. Signs are showing it is going to trounce Blu-ray, and soon. Surprised? Read on.

For those looking for a single sentence explaining why go with HD DVD: It's a better thought-out, more solid product than Blu-ray, it is half the price, and picture and sound quality are identical. At less than $200 including seven or more movies, HD DVD players are a stunning value. Why pay twice the money when Blu-ray has serious issues and the movies look and sound the same?

I smile when I see people buying HD DVD players based on bargain pricing, because they are unknowingly getting the Ferrari as well! Despite its purported superiority and much higher cost, Blu-ray is the emperor with no clothes. HD DVD has been superior since day one.

HD DVD has delivered as promised from the start, receiving critical acclaim for its spectacular picture and stunning sound. Hundreds of great movies are available, with more added every week. Check out amazon.com to see the wide, varied selection.

On the other hand, at launch Blu-ray's picture quality was horrible, generating barbs such as "needs to go to the scrap heap" and "who in their right mind would ever like this?" Though they have since closed the picture quality gap, almost all Blu-ray player models announced or existing are already obsolete. They conform to an early player profile that does not support upcoming disc features. Profiles should have been finalized before product launch! Blu-ray's record has been spotty at best, and if you say it sounds like they have been fixing it as they go along, I'd say you are right.

In the words of video industry legend Joe Kane, "Blu-ray is all about greed." Though a poor value, many retailers push Blu-ray because of the higher price and higher margin. It's easy to debunk Blu-ray's purported advantages:

* "More studios support Blu-ray, including Disney ... no 'Cars' or 'Pirates' on HD DVD."

Well, HD DVD has plenty of exclusive support, too, and has never lost a studio. Conversely, Paramount and DreamWorks recently abandoned Blu-ray for HD DVD, calling it "the affordable, high quality choice." So, no 'Star Trek' or 'Shrek' for Blu-ray. The answer for either camp is to get the regular DVD if you can't get the HD version.


* "Blu-ray discs have higher capacity."

Another nonissue as HD DVD has enough to do the job. Plus, expensive new equipment is needed to manufacture Blu-ray discs. Existing DVD factories need little modification to press HD DVDs, meaning lower costs from movie studio to consumer.

* "More Blu-ray players have been sold and more companies make them."

Well, almost all of the "Blu-ray players" sold so far are Playstation 3 game consoles that happen to have a Blu-ray drive in them. Many, if not most of them, are used solely as game machines. HD DVD has the lead in stand-alone players. As for more manufacturers, what's the difference if there are one or 10 obsolete, expensive Blu-ray models on the market?


* "Blu-ray will win because it has sold more movies to date."

Another nonissue because even combined, Blu-ray and HD DVD disc sales are an infinitesimal piece of the DVD pie, a few grains of sand in a sandbox. Blu-ray's tiny numerical lead will be obliterated soon anyway because kingmaker Wal-Mart has embraced HD DVD. In early November, Wal-Mart placed HD DVD ads on primetime TV and ran a promotion estimated to have sold well over 50,000 players in a single day. Other retailers showed increased HD DVD player sales in Wal-Mart's wake, with the events making national news.

----------------------

For more, read the prophetic "Blu-ray: Can it survive?" at ...

www.projectorcentral.com/blu-ray_2.htm

... Dated July 14, 2006, it is right on the money!

With the premium offering at a lower price, DreamWorks and Paramount's abandonment of Blu-ray, and support from extremely powerful places, HD DVD, with its growing momentum, is showing signs of turning into a tidal wave this holiday season.

I know consumers are smart enough to see which way to go, and they're going to love their choice. Nice to get the best for half the price, isn't it?

----------------------
Don Lindich is a national columnist and creator of the "Digital Made Easy" book series.

Send him your questions and read past columns at www.soundadviceblog.com.

First published on November 10, 2007 at 12:00 am
post #1895 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Iturralde
"Sound Advice: HD DVD leaves Blu-ray in the dust"

Saturday, November 10, 2007 - By Don Lindich

I am going to use the "Slashdot tagging (beta)" here for the author of the article, not the poster:

troll, yes, no, idiot, lame, flamebait, wrong, !walmartexclusive
post #1896 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Iturralde
"Sound Advice: HD DVD leaves Blu-ray in the dust"

Saturday, November 10, 2007 - By Don Lindich

Every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in...

I had swore I was not going to get into any more of the stupid format war talk, but this really is hard to let be. Phil, you are kidding, right? This article, blog or whatever, has got to be some of the most juvenile writing I have come across in a long time. Who is this guy, Don Lindich? Are we supposed to know him and more importantly who died and made him the last word on this subject? With such gems such as "I smile when I see people buying HD DVD players based on bargain pricing, because they are unknowingly getting the Ferrari as well! Despite its purported superiority and much higher cost, Blu-ray is the emperor with no clothes. HD DVD has been superior since day one." "On the other hand, at launch Blu-ray's picture quality was horrible, generating barbs such as "needs to go to the scrap heap" and "who in their right mind would ever like this?" This guy is hoot. Thak you for providing some well needed laughs around here.
post #1897 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

In my advanced speech class, we were given an assignment to make a powerpoint on anything we wanted.


So I dutifully did a HD-DVD/Blu-Ray presentation.



Of, course, any good speech needs a good opening line, something to drawn in the listeners, so of course mine was "Any body in the mood for some good propaganda?"


It was a joke, but I layed down why I chose HD-DVD, and some features and such. I then encourage the class to research on their own if they are interested, but I told them exactly why I chose HD-DVD.

This dude's a ditz.

If you want push something on people, that fine. But do it in an honest fasion, and make it clear why YOU made that choice. Not why everyone should.

My reason. I was looking at a $180 Add on Drive, or a $500 PS3. Either one had the movies I was looking to buy. I chose HD-DVD.
post #1898 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

While this has nothing to do with the war. I do think where we choose to spend our money says something. The next time you shop at WalMart, think about:

1) Lower wages
2) More China goods
3) More tax payer cost for healthcare. I believe not many have heathcare coverage.

I may pay more somewhere else, but if it helps support my community by buying where there are better wages and healthcare for workers, then it is worth it.
post #1899 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_Ohio
While this has nothing to do with the war. I do think where we choose to spend our money says something. The next time you shop at WalMart, think about:

1) Lower wages
2) More China goods
3) More tax payer cost for healthcare. I believe not many have heathcare coverage.

I may pay more somewhere else, but if it helps support my community by buying where there are better wages and healthcare for workers, then it is worth it.

And it's not counted in the Nielson video scan.












Come on I had to.

My dad owns a local busines, and I definatley understand the need for respect of local business. Wal-Mart is last resort for me.
post #1900 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Shopping at locally owned stores instead of Walmart is great, but for most people the other choices are Target or Kohls or Kmart or grocery chains, not some long-running mom & pop operation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_Ohio
1) Lower wages
2) More China goods

When you compare Walmart to other chain stores, is there really that much of a difference?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_Ohio
3) More tax payer cost for healthcare. I believe not many have heathcare coverage.

$4 generic prescriptions for everyone goes a long way towards improving Walmart's image in my book.
post #1901 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Warner officially abandons Total HD (for the forseeable future):

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...isc_Plans/1147
post #1902 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_Ohio
Sony can't do what Toshiba can do and lower the price of the player below cost.
PS3
post #1903 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Don Lindich & Bill Hunt should get together for lunch sometime!

JJ
post #1904 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Sony can't do what Toshiba can do and lower the price of the player below cost.

Sure they can. But then how would Panasonic, Denon, Pioneer, Samsung, Sharp and Philips feel when a competitor offering a comparable product slashes prices like that and undercuts their already-slim profit margins?

Since Toshiba is basically the only company selling HD DVD hardware, they can price it how they like without rocking the boat with other manufacturers who've invested R&D in the format. Not having any other major manufacturers supporting your technology can be a good or bad thing, depending on who you are and how you look at it.

post #1905 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Sure they can. But then how would Panasonic, Denon, Pioneer, Samsung, Sharp and Philips feel when a competitor offering a comparable product slashes prices like that and undercuts their already-slim profit margins?
They can and they have. Since the release of the PS3 Sony has undercut all of the BD competition, and have struck again with a 399.99 PS3. The only manufacturer that is probably immune to the PS3 pricing is Pioneer with their Elite player. Elite buyers have seldom worried about cheaper players being available and Pioneer prices their Elite product assuming relatively low sales figures..
post #1906 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
They can and they have. Since the release of the PS3 Sony has undercut all of the BD competition, and have struck again with a 399.99 PS3. The only manufacturer that is probably immune to the PS3 pricing is Pioneer with their Elite player. Elite buyers have seldom worried about cheaper players being available.

This has been addressed 100 times over already. While the PS3 attracts some "movie" buyers due to its cost/performance ratio (I'm an example), it leaves plenty of room for higher-priced BD hardware since the majority of consumers don't want a game console and prefer a stand-alone device. I know several HT buffs who wanted to buy a stand-alone BD player at a higher price even without the advanced features of the PS3 (like wireless ethernet). Go figure... but that's the mindset of most consumers (even tech-saavy ones).

Even when the PS3 costs less, these other manufacturers still are able to sell their hardware.
post #1907 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Even when the PS3 costs less, these other manufacturers still are able to sell their hardware.
Well they certainly have not done a very good job of it, have they. And you are right, this has been addressed 100 times before. Price is the issue. This is why the five or six BD stand alone manufacturers have not been able to come close to equaling the sales of the Toshiba stand alones. And if you think the PS3 pricing is not hurting the sales of the stand alone BD players, you are living in a dream world.
post #1908 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Chalk me up as one who would prefer a standalone machine to a game console. Games are played on one TV in my house, and the other TV is dedicated to HT. That being said, @ this point, both are SD displays (although the HT unit is a 16:9 CRT) and I'm not in any rush to upgrade.
post #1909 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Sure they can. But then how would Panasonic, Denon, Pioneer, Samsung, Sharp and Philips feel when a competitor offering a comparable product slashes prices like that and undercuts their already-slim profit margins?

Since Toshiba is basically the only company selling HD DVD hardware, they can price it how they like without rocking the boat with other manufacturers who've invested R&D in the format. Not having any other major manufacturers supporting your technology can be a good or bad thing, depending on who you are and how you look at it.


They would do what they always do. They don't sell to the same demographic as Sony does, and a low end Sony player shouldn't have any effect on their some what higher end market. Does the fact that you can buy a $120 Sony receiver change the fact that Denon sells one for $1000. I don't think so.

Doug
post #1910 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

The very fact that many major manufacturers are investing in developing and selling BD hardware is a statement that they are returning a profit and aren't being driven away by competition with sony's PS3. And that includes lower-cost models other than the high-priced Pioneer elite unit.
post #1911 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

"Welcome" back, David.

I admire your passion, persistence and video expertise but, in matters BD, you perennially place the partisan cart before the logic horse.

The very fact that many major manufacturers are investing in developing and selling BD hardware is a statement that they are returning a profit and aren't being driven away by competition with sony's PS3.

This is a tautological argument. Other manufs making BD players doesn't necessarily mean what you want it to mean. It may--or may not--be dispositive of anything. It's remarkable how this format competish has turned some movie buffs and techno geeks into business majors with crystal balls providing insight into the uber confidential p & l statements of the multinational parent corporations of c.e. companies.

By this logic, one could argue that the "very fact" that Tosh continues to manufacture and release more HD DVD players (more even than Sony has made of BD players) is ipso facto indication that it must be a profitable enterprise for the company. And we all know you don't agree with that notion.
post #1912 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Toshiba and Sony have heavily vested interests in their respective "formats" surviving due to long-term royalties. That's why Toshiba doesn't care if they don't make money on their hardware... they're hoping to recoup those with long-term royalty profits if their format succeeds. Similar with Sony, which is one reason why they are willing to take some loss on the PS3. Nothing about hardware sales of either Toshiba or Sony can be construed to indicate anything about profitable hardware sales.

However, the other host of manufacturers releasing Blu-ray players are doing so as they do with any other product they sell: to make money off the hardware sale itself. They are't studios (wont' make $$ on software sales) and they don't get a cut from royalties on the format. Just the players.

Profits with hardware sales of HD gear is one reason manufacturers embraced Blu-ray. They said for years that they were looking to HD media to help them create a market where they could make some profit for a time on hardware sales since DVD hardware profits had all but vanished. Toshiba undercut profit margins early on by pricing their hardware at or below its cost threshold. That's why manufactures haven't invested in HD DVD hardware thus far. Those that will (Onkyo, Meridian) are likely to price their players well above the "affordable" level of Toshiba's 199-299 stock and aim their gear towards a high-end customer in order to keep profits sustainable. It's a catch 22 that's been discussed over and over (low priced haredware is attractive to consumers, but unattractive to manufacturers if the profit margin falls/vanishes too fast).

Quote:
By this logic, one could argue that the "very fact" that Tosh is continuing to manufacture and release more HD DVD players (more even than Sony has made of BD players) is ipso facto indication that it must be a profitable enterprise for the company. And we all know you don't agree with that notion.

99% of logical thinkers would assume that a hardware manufacturer that's the sole supporter of a format that they will receive royalties on, who goes into the market to produce low-priced hardware unsupported by other manufacturers, is taking a loss in order to try to gain market share. If they could turn healty profits at their price point, then why aren't other manufacturers chosing to make money along side of them?
post #1913 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I'm still waiting for the full featured sub-$500 BR players I was told would be appearing "real soon now". It was supposed to be early this year, then this summer, then this fall....
post #1914 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

99% of logical thinkers would assume that a hardware manufacturer that's the sole supporter of a format that they will receive royalties on, who goes into the market to produce low-priced hardware unsupported by other manufacturers, is taking a loss in order to try to gain market share. If they could turn healty profits at their price point, then why aren't other manufacturers chosing to make money along side of them?
Count me in as a member of that 1% minority of logical thinkers that disagree with your assumptions.
Just because other manufacturers do not jump on the HD-DVD's bandwagon, at this time, does not mean that Toshiba is taking a loss from player sales in order to gain market share. This is rather a HUGE assumption and I for one do not subscribe to this theory. Perhaps you have hard facts to support this theory.
Now I'm making an assumption here that BD manufacturers have set up their Blu-ray assembly lines and incurred huge expenses in doing so and it's a little late in the game to suddenly reverse directions and compete with Toshiba on a cost basis even if they may wish to do so. The old "early bird gets the worm" theory.
I don't know what it costs Toshiba to make 1 HD-A2 and market it, I just know they have been manufacturing their line of HD players for several years now, and I'll wager they know what their doing. My only regret is that Toshiba was not part of the BR manufacturing group. If, somehow, they were, I'll wager that Toshiba would be selling their BR players for Under $200.
They are that good!
post #1915 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
I don't know what it costs Toshiba to make 1 HD-A2 and market it, I just know they have been manufacturing their line of HD players for several years now, and I'll wager they know what their doing.

They absolutely know what they are doing. They're letting hardware sales profits take a back-seat to the priority of pricing their hardware low enough to encourage rapid player sales. This is a calculated strategy to try to gain market share for HD DVD early on in the format's life cycle while competition with BD is strong. It's worked as far as helping HD DVD get in the hands of more customers faster. But it's hurt because it's caused other manufacturers to sit on the side-lines or invest in BD where hardware sales profits are more rewarding.


Quote:
Now I'm making an assumption here that BD manufacturers have set up their Blu-ray assembly lines and incurred huge expenses in doing so and it's a little late in the game to suddenly reverse directions and compete with Toshiba on a cost basis even if they may wish to do so.

Toshiba had been disclosing their strategy for low-cost hardware, including bragging that low-cost Chinese players would be coming very quickly, well before their format hit the streets. That's why other major brands didn't get involved early in the game and nothing has changed to encourage their participation since that time.


Quote:
My only regret is that Toshiba was not part of the BR manufacturing group. If, somehow, they were, I'll wager that Toshiba would be selling their BR players for Under $200.

Comments like this suggest a fundamental lack of awareness about key issues of the format war. FORMAT ROYALTIES are the key reason why we have a format war at all. Toshiba wants to rake it in with HD DVD (where they own most of the royalties). Sony and it's gang (there are many members of the BD team) want to rake it in with BD. Toshiba's royalties are tied specifically to the *disc structure* of the DVD format, which is why they based HD DVD on DVD manufacturing (preserves those royalties they enjoy now with DVD) and why they weren't willing to merge with Sony when it meant going with Blu-ray Disc's higher-storage disc format. If it had been anything otherwise, we'd have one format right now.

Quote:
They are that good!

They are indeed. And from a consumer point of view of "here and now", those players represent a great value. If HD DVD crashes and burns in a year or so because of lack of support by other manufacturers, it may not end up being a long-term value, though those players are amazing DVD up-converters and worth the price for that feature alone.
post #1916 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

The irony that strikes me here is that Sony and Toshiba were allies back in the days of Beta. How times change.
post #1917 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
I'm still waiting for the full featured sub-$500 BR players I was told would be appearing "real soon now". It was supposed to be early this year, then this summer, then this fall....

They basically already have it. Just a few firmware updates.. Do I need to say the name?
post #1918 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
The irony that strikes me here is that Sony and Toshiba were allies back in the days of Beta. How times change.
An even greater Irony is that Toshiba has procured all future Cell Processor development and manufacturing from Sony. The life of BD (PS3) lies in Toshiba's ability to deliver the Cell. Strange bedfellows.
post #1919 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jari K
They basically already have it. Just a few firmware updates.. Do I need to say the name?
They will have it when they have it. Until then, just promises.
post #1920 of 3878

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Quote:
Do I need to say the name?
If its initials are PS3, I'nm not interested.
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Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › **Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*