**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106* - Page 62

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

If you buy into something that's better than "good enough" I wouldn't say you've wasted your time. Probably your money, but not your time.

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Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

That clearly implies that the same result could be achieved by tweaking the CD (or the movie soundtrack), making 24 bits unnecessary.

It's pretty simple, really. Just go back to the CD source material, tweak it, and voila: better sound.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Here ya go...

http://www.geek.com/anydvd-makers-sl...laim-bd-crack/


Doug

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

You are kidding, right? My statement rests on a very big 'if' and there is certainly no proof of the same and I was certainly not implying what you have comprehended from my statement.

If it were as simple as that, why didn't they simply tweak the CDs when they weare first released.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

If you are using extremely good equipment, perhaps 2 of the extra bits (above 16) are not destroyed by the amplifiers and contribute to your hearing experience.

The amplifiers must have a S/N ratio of 108db or better (real figure, not just the ahem "optimistic" manufacturer's spec). This will render 18 bits of the original signal intact. Any more bits are "drowned" in random noise and lose any resemblance to the original value. If the S/N is worse than 108db, more and more bits will disappear when the value gets lower.

Unfortunately, most receivers do have lower values: 95db or 85db are rather common figures (as given by the manufacturer!)

Of course, this doesn't mean the speakers get 18 significant bits worth of signal. The other enemy is the THD.
Typically this value is in the neighbourhood of 0.7% - 0.05%, leaving no more than 11 significant bits at best. Fortunately, these 11 significant bits are relative to the sound level, so they can "shift" together with the total volume. Thus, in soft passages of the sound track, they may still be present as 11 bits (in the lower area of the sound bytes) - until at even lower levels the sound begins to drown in the noise, which "eats" the lower bits away.


Cees

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Actually, it's not such a big "if". The remastering of CDs to make them sound better (sometimes it fails, and they end up sounding worse, but that's a different issue) is not all that uncommon. And there's no "if" at all about the fact that the number of bits is hardly the only way to improve sound.

You may as well ask why ANY product that's rereleased as "new and/or improved" wasn't done so in the first place. Again, it simply isn't uncommon for people to rethink what they did previously or second guess what someone else did previously, or, ahem, simply want to sell you the same product over again.

I would add to Cees' post that an argument can be made for 24 bits during the mixing stage so as to avoid truncation losses, but he's absolutely right about the fact that it's pointless to try to deliver 24 bits of dynamic range in the home.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

On a different note (and about studio support).

According to HighDefDigest, Warner has now reacted to the "leaning to Blu-ray" story. Some people may want to read this for what it's worth (as was the previous story):

Warner Says Blu-ray Comments "Misquoted and Misconstrued"

Interesting paragraph:



Cees

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Wow, what is up with Howard Stringer changing his tune so drastically? He's gone from "Blu ray has won" to "it doesn't matter who wins." I never thought he would back down like that.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/format-wa...uch-320802.php

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I thought the biggest thing in that artice was that he used the word stalemate. That is definitely bad news for Sony. It certainly puts pressure on
bluray only studios. I think MGM is extremely vulnerable since the majority of the company is owned by financial entities. They are interested only in money. If this keeps going on, they are going to start asking why we aren't servicing hd-dvd owners. Their money is as spendable as bluray owners.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

What Stringer is now saying seems to validate what we were told at the EMA expo in Vegas -- namely that it will be a long time, if ever, before one format dominates.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I totally agree. MGM is delaying HD versions of Ronin and Red Dawn perhaps to wait it out.
I know one thing - I would seriously rethink laying some big bucks on a Blu-ray player this X-mas which I was going to do because of BR releases of Battle of Britain, A Bridge too Far, Master and Commander, Ronin, Red Dawn and Close Encounters. (sigh)

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Reading the latest posts, It looks like people on here have reached my point. Tired of the war.

Can we all agree that this war has eliminated high def discs as becoming mainstream? DVD won..... Microsoft has strategically worked the war to make sure we have no winner. Why say that about Microsoft, they supplement the studios with a group of people creating the HD programming. Didn't they mention that in Vegas? Without it, would the exclusive studios been exclusive? We get to pay more for discs for the life of the format.

I would not want to be on the Toshiba board explaining how they spent so munch on R&D for HD-DVD and dumped the old player. Low player prices are not going to end the war. It just keeps it going. Sorry had to get that jab in.

The biggest hardware winner will be the one that creates the high def receiver box that receives over air signals that let you watch it on non HD TVs. Add a DVD player to it and you have a winner. Does anyone know the ratio of HD TVs to non HD TVs being used?

I am happy watching my Direct TV HD channels,on my Samsung HD 720p TV, with my playstation 3. Up stairs, Sony 720p TV with Panasonic Blu-ray player (thanks Panasonic), and non HD direct dvr. Not enough cash or desire to convert that to a HD dvr player yet. Think I will be waiting a long time to go to 1080p and spend more money on HD.

The mass consumers probably think the biggest selling feature for HD is that it finally fills the screen like their old tv. one day the studios can eliminate the Pan&Scan versions. Wonder how much it costs them to make that version?

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I agree it's a foregone conclusion that both of these formats are doomed from ever going mainstream. I love my HD-DVD titles and I plan on buying into Blu-Ray over the holidays as well, but I'm a total A/V nut and let's face it people on forums like this one and AVS are a huge minority. DVD has been and will continue to be more than sufficient for the vast majority of the American public and the studios and CE companies have nobody to blame but themselves. If they weren't so stubborn and greedy they would've all gotten together and worked out a deal like they did with DVD to create a unified format that would be much more appealing to the consumer. Instead the they chose to engage in a dick wagging contest and in the end they're all going to lose. Good job.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I agree it's a foregone conclusion that both of these formats are doomed from ever going mainstream. I love my HD-DVD titles and I plan on buying into Blu-Ray over the holidays as well, but I'm a total A/V nut and let's face it people on forums like this one and AVS are a huge minority. DVD has been and will continue to be more than sufficient for the vast majority of the American public and the studios and CE companies have nobody to blame but themselves. If they weren't so stubborn and greedy they would've all gotten together and worked out a deal like they did with DVD to create a unified format that would be much more appealing to the consumer. Instead the they chose to engage in a dick wagging contest and in the end they're all going to lose. Good job.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I don't agree at all. High def will slowly but surely replace SD. This will be greatly aided by the fact that analog TV is going away in 2009. As a result lots of HDTVs are going to be sold. Eventually there will be no SD only players. Most likely what you will have is a player that will play all 3 formats, just as today you have DVD players that play audio CD, CD video, MP3, DIVX codec, Kodak picture CDs, DVD-R and DVD+R, etc.

Doug

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I don't know about that. I think the current stalemate may have delayed it, but it was never happening within just one or two years. DVD is going to stay the standard for a while just because there are DVD drives and non-HD screens everywhere - computers, bedrooms, portables, classrooms - and HD devices are going to have to replace all of those before HD discs are "mainstream". That's a long, long process - someone who bought an NTSC television three years ago probably still figures it's got another five to ten years in it.

Anyway, neither format was ever a threat to replace DVD in the short term. But they don't have to; there's probably not going to be another video format after them for a long, long time. Whichever survives (or both) can grow slowly and supplant DVD as people buy new players to replace their old ones.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I think the only people who are going to have set top boxed to convert digital tv to watch on an analog TV are the people who get them for free from the government. As far as I can tell all new TVs now can get the digital channels. I just bought my mom a 13 inch Durabrand TV from Walmart for around $80. It can get the digital channels. In a year and a half you'll be able to buy a 30 inch HDTV for under $200

Doug

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Certainly not!

On the contrary, the competition has forced prices down to levels where the format becoming mainstream may start to become feasible.

Apparently, IMO, the "war" (= competition) has accelerated the general acceptance, which is still very modest, though.


Cees

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Sorry, but I just can't see it happening. These two formats have been on the market for a year and a half now and they've barely made a ripple in the water. Transformers sold about 180,000 HD-DVDs and over 8 million copies on SD DVD. Spider-Man 3 sold 130,000 Blu-Ray discs, but probably sold 4-6 million copies on DVD. Face it, we are a very niche market much like LaserDisc owners back in the days of VHS and the vast majority of people are not interested in these formats. Maybe that will change someday, but I think we're talking several years for mass adoption to take place and by that time both of these formats might be dead as everything will be going to downloads. I hope not, but I can definitely see that scenario playing out.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Exactly. I'm not as early of an adopter as many people on this forum and I didn't plan on buying into either format this year. But when the A30 came out and Amazon had it for $300 with the seven free movies (2 in-box, 5 by mail) I jumped on that deal.

I was planning on getting an upconvert player, which would cost at least $100. And getting the free discs, I figured it was worth going the extra mile for the HD player. Without the two formats, there's no way IMO that player would've been that cheap and I wouldn't have HD DVD right now.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Even after nobody makes standard def TVs, no body broadcasts in standard definition, everyone will still buy standard def movies?


Probably not.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

A year and a half is hardly enough time to say that it will only be a niche. The problem with the VHS/Laserdisc analogy is that you couldn't play a VHS tape on a laserdisc machine and vis versa. However you CAN play a blu-ray, HD DVD and DVD on the same machine. That is the future.

Doug

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

There's a HUGE difference between watching SD programming on TV and watching a DVD that can be upscaled via component or HDMI on a high def display. Also, just because analog broadcasts are being phased out in 2009 it doesn't mean everyone will go out and buy a high def TV either. Millions of people will just get the cheap converter boxes for their existing TVs rather than upgrading to a new display. Like I said before, mass adoption of the HD formats may happen someday, but it's not happening anytime soon.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I don't think the TVs are going to be that much more than the converter boxes. As I said I got my mom a 13 inch TV that can get the digital channels for around $80. And again I suspect that by that time you'll be able to get say a 30 inch HDTV for under $200.

Doug

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

No, actually the future is downloads. Personally, I hate the idea, but all you have to do is look at the success of iTunes and you'll see that the majority of people prefer convenience over quality. All signs point to the download model being the way of the future and unfortunately HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are just a quick stopgap that will NEVER reach the mass penetration of DVD. As I said before, I own an HD-DVD player and plan on buying into Blu-Ray over the holidays so it's not like I'm rooting against either of these formats. I know enough about business, however, to see that neither of these formats will ever be a major success as long as they're competing against each other.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I've yet to see any hard survey data that proves that slow adoption rates are due to the format war. And unlike VHS/Beta, combo machines will be available. Once that happens, the "I want to avoid format confusion" reason simply goes away. The sales person will be able to say very simply, "buy this, and you can play anything". Then the buyer can say "war? what war?".

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Nothing could be more wrong. It will take time but eventually HD will become mainstream. Oh joy, more bogeyman comments about Microsoft. Boy MS really is the redheaded step child for the Blu fan boys.

Those individuals who think MS is some secret villain behind the curtains pulling the strings are so sad. MS is not responsible for the format war or the current stalemate.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

It's actually in retailers intrest to sell you new products. They will educate people because its in THEIR intrest for people to WANT new products.

Have you seen TV selections? Maybe one or two SD Tv's. The emphasis is on hi def.


It'll never be as big as DVD, but theres still alot of room to grow.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

No, downloads are only part of the future.

As it stands now the reality is the infrastructure needed for downloads to become a major player or even a minor player in the HD movie venue is simply nonexistent and might be for a long time.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

How can a person who thinks physical media will die, ALSO thinks that digital downloads are the future?






Explain to me how the people who are avoiding high defintion are going to be savy enough to invest in whatever future home internet high defintion infrastructer with whatever terabyte amount hard drive for downloading movies?