A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD - Page 2

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

The question has been answered, but it is the premise of the question I have a problem with. How does one "optimize" a compression to take advantage of higher throughput? Are you asking if they turned the encoder up higher than necessary in order to take up more space than necessary, which by definition is not "optimizing" anything? That is, in fact, NOT optimizing the compression.

Are you assuming the compression is not optimized because it fits in a smaller space than you think it should?

What is the question behind the question?

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

Sounds pretty clear that he thinks it would look even better with a higher bit rate, even though Robert Harris thinks it looks "just perfect".

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

Ok....I went for exercise & task man Tim & mowed the yard. (very fast I might add & with each lane I proclaimed.....THIS IS SPARTA! )

As Robert Harris has pointed out, this is indeed a terrific HD DVD. I'm sure the BD version is just as good. This is not an easy disc as the stylistic choices made aren't the most alluring for folks wanting a discovery channel hd lookalike demo scene. But it looks EXACTLY how I remembered it in the theater with better sound though.

Normally I watch the main feature first, then go back and re-watch with any commentary, PiP etc...but this time I decided to watch the HD DVD exclusive blue-screen PiP the entire time first. Way cool....way cool. As Mr. Harris also states it's kind of gutsy and honest to see what they did to create the intended look. The director, Mr. Snyder, certainly knew what he wanted and went for it. The result is not only true to the graphic novel but on this HD DVD disc, comes across extremely authentic.

It was fascinating to see & hear all that went in and with each scene....not just a few scenes but the ENTIRE film has this PiP feature.

The audio was as expected. Even better. A film like 300 is all about image and sound and every little atmospheric nuance comes through and the battle sequences will make those bass heads smile. There was one moment when I swear something came loose in my mouth.

I know there are the combo haters out there and those here who want to save that extra $3-4, but those who are format neutral really should get this on HD DVD. Most neutral titles are a wash really but to miss this PiP feature would be a mistake.

This disc is going to be a BIG hit.

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

If one doesn´t feel that the "artistic choice" is good for the film etc, he/she can of course write all those opinions on the "film"-section of the review. I have no problem with that.

But: They don´t really belong to the "transfer"-section.

There are times when we film buffs disagree with the "artistic choice" of certain films (e.g. "Miami Vice (2006)" comes to mind), but that shouldn´t effect how we rate the DVD/HD transfer. I mean e.g. both "Bad Boys 2" (NOT yet on HD) and "300" look very different on the screen (the other one is ultra-slick, vivid etc, while the other one is grainy, muted etc), but both probably would be very close to that "perfect" in HD.. Just in a different ways. Giving e.g. 5 to "Bad Boys 2" and 4,5 to "300" wouldn´t be right, IMO.

So Blu-ray-release has an additional PCM-track? Even if Blu-ray would have higher (?) bitrate (due the additional capacity), I guess the PCM-track takes that additional space? Just wondering..

With HD DVD, the audio commentary is only on the SD DVD-side?

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

The HD DVD has a Snyder commentary that plays with the PiP feature, but WB did not put the commentary track w/Snyder, screenwriter and DP on the HD DVD side, SD side only.

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

The PiP feature of the HD DVD will be very interesting. Can't wait for Tuesday to pick this up.

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

One makes it look closer to the source. If this is possible here or not is speculation without access to the source for comparison unless one sees obvious compression problems (such as blocking). There more noise there is the more likely a higher bit rate will give visibly different results.

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

I'm tempted by the combo. Haven't been bitten by the HD bug yet, but I will likely buy a dual format player when/if the time comes.

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

I wasn't a huge fan of this movie, but I will at least rent it to see the pip feature--sounds very cool. This should be a big seller by next gen format standards and it should be popular with what some like to deride as the "ps3 crowd."

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

But remember the PS3 is Blu-Ray, which does NOT have the PIP feature.

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

There is clearly a sweet spot with VC1 beyond which a higher bit rate doesn't produce obvious improvement. As a film gets longer though, blu-ray will have a definite advantage over HD DVD for now. But for the average movie of 2 hours or less, a higher bit rate will, in most cases, not produce a better picture.

I am starting to hear rumors that Toshiba has worked out their 51 gig 3 layer disc, and that it will work with all players with a firmware upgrade. However this is just a rumor at this point.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

And who says the current encode is not the best optimized encode for BD (or HD for that matter) Of course not. Nor does yours. This is all conjecture. And if the encode has been optimized, would not help.

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

But who says it is? I would think that on an enthusiests forum we'd be asking for the maximum possible bitrates. I don't get why anyone would have a problem with Blu-Ray enthusiests asking that a studio actually dedicate the same attention to Blu-Ray that they currently do to HD-DVD. Paramount certainly spends the additional effort to optimize an encode and it seems to be appreciated. It certainly doesn't take a penny out of any of our pockets. Seems more like sour grapes from the people arguing against a seperate encode then anything else.


Ah, but there is actual science behind the conjecture of those asking for taking advantage of the higher bitrate Blu-Ray affords. It's certainly been shown that extra bits can help preserve quality when dealing with lossy encodings in both audio and video.


Ah, but optimizing for maximum quality with a higher ceiling and optimizing for the max bitrate they actually have available are not necessarily the same thing. They could optimize for a bitrate half of what they use on this disc, but that doesn't mean that it would look identical to the current encode.

All people are asking is that Warner give the same attention to Blu-Ray that is given to HD-DVD. With 2/3s of Warners sales coming from Blu-Ray, it's certainly a fair thing to ask of them.

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

[quote=Shawn Perron]
A higher bit rate doesn't always mean that the image quality will be better. Again there is a point at which increasing the bit rate doesn't improve the image, at that point its only a waste of space.



Only up to a point, and I think its pretty clear for an average running time movie HD DVD has more than enough space and bit rate through put to produce an image that is indistinguishable from the master. increasing the bit rate in most cases would be redundant.


It also doesn't mean that it wouldn't look identical.


I don't think Warner cares all that much about Blu-ray, at least it seems to be an afterthought for the most part.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

The only way to waste space on a disc is not to use it at all.

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

If you had written "the most certain way", I would have agreed.
But there are many other ways besides not using it at all, to waste bit-space.

BTW, the newest one seems to be dumping a superfluous audio track in it. Delivers a vague aura of usefulness, of course.


Cees

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

Well no if the using of that space provides no advantage then it is a waste, as it is only carrying redundant information.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

And yet it would do no harm, and possibly do good. I still say the masters are the weak spot at this point. It'd be the same pattern we saw with DVD at the beginning. I think the extra bitrate will be more beneficial when studios are all mastering in 4k and working from there. Obviously the benefit for an older movie can be less, but newer movies may really shine when given room. All the bitrate in the world won't help if the master isn't top notch.

Over at AVS some of the fellows have been doing some down conversion then up conversion. Turns out most masters don't even contain 1080p worth of information to preserve. Either that or the masters are being prefiltered, which would indicate a lack of bitrate to preserve the detail (or just trying to filter out the grain which is bad too).

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

I bought the BRD of this title because I'm not interested in the interactive stuff and the BRD is cheaper than the HD DVD combo-disc.

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

[quote=Shawn Perron]

It would do no harm other than to take up space that could be used for something else (branching versions of other cuts of the movie? More commentary tracks? Etc)

Considering that 35mm film, even from older film stocks, has a more resolving power than even 4k digital video, I think all feature films could benefit from high quality digital mastering.


I think the speculation at AVS about some HD masters being unconverted from SD masters is highly questionable and I would take that information with a huge grain of salt.

The only point I'm making, and I'm making it as someone who authors SD DVDs as part of my job, is that at a particular point increasing the bit rate isn't always going to give you a better image. To be honest on SD discs for a movie that is 90 min or so, you can easily fit that film onto a 4 gig DVD with the extras being on a second disc. Yes you could increase the bit rate and fill up a 9 gig dvd, but the image on your tv screen isn't going to look any different. The same is true for any lossy file format. You eventually reach a point of diminishing returns.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

Which is why I will rent the HD DVD and would buy the HD DVD if I liked the film more. I am very interested in seeing this special feature. Still, I expect it to sell quite well on Blu-ray and I could see the PS3 being a factor.

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

I feel like an idiot due to my poor use of the word optimize. I'm in the camp of wanting the least amount of bits as possible being thrown away. I know that a lot of people are of the opinion that high bitrate video is a waste of space, and they may well be right; however, I think that something subtle gets thrown away as the level of compression rises. so I want the least amount of compression. As you noted that is not optimizing.

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

I thought "300" was shot digitally?
Isn't the "film grain" fake?
Thanks.

EDitEDbyED:
Thought this was interesting;
One of the elements that the filmmakers wanted to explore was the photographic look of the film. Snyder had the idea of manipulating the color balance to create a process that was ultimately nicknamed "the crush." "Zack developed a recipe where you'd crush the black content of the image and enhance the color saturation to change the contrast ratio of the film," Jeffrey Silver explains. "Every image in this film went through a post-image processing. The crush is what gives this film its distinct look and feel."

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

Shot on 35mm.

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

I would have normally purchased the Blu Ray version, but for only $4 dollars more, I felt the extra features, especially the PIP, was worth it.

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

And this illustrates exactly why we should like the presence on the market of two competing formats.
The consumer makes his/her choice!


Cees

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

You said it Cees. I fortunately have both, so I'm a happy camper.

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

For $4 more, you get the HD DVD, the DVD and extra features. I think it's definitely worth it.

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

..or: You have to pay $4 more of the SD DVD-version that you don´t really need..

Re: A few words about...™ 300 -- in HD & BD

Some wild, but interesting rumors:
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...y_Re-Issue/828

"Deborah Snyder, the film's executive producer (and wife of '300' director Zack Snyder) revealed at a Comic-Con panel last week that indeed an in-movie experience feature for the Blu-ray edition of the film wasn't yet ready for this week's release. Later, according to an article in Home Media Magazine, she went further, saying "I think there's going to be another Blu-ray special edition later on."

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/new...ticle_ID=10969