THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans (UPDATE 4/19:... - Page 20

I have purchased 236 WAC titles so far, several of which were multi-disc collections like the Vitaphone Shorts.  I have yet to find a single disc that has gone bad over time.  The only problem I had in the beginning was a defect which was visible to the naked eye:  a spiral pattern on the disc itself meant the disc was unplayable in all my players.  I had three of these defects early on in the first few months after the archive's debut.  Just last month, I had the first instance of this defect in many, many months.  Four defects out of about 250 discs, three of which were in the early days of the program.  While that's not as solid as my experience with pressed discs, it's not too bad when considering that the defect is noticeable from the moment you open the disc and WA has never failed to replace the disc immediately upon notification.

I guess this is sort of my fault in that I didn't mean to start up the old burnt versus pressed arguments again.  I was merely stating a fact that if the Bowery Boys series is only offered through the Archives on burnt discs, they've lost my sale.  That being said, I fully understand that Warner's release strategy over the last year or so makes it very likely that the Archive is precisely where these things will land.  I don't delude myself into thinking my sale (or lack thereof) will be able to affect any change here.  There's always the chance I may be pleasantly surprised by Warner's plans for the boys.

Ron, I appreciate your position here as the middle man in all this.  The only thing I can say is that there must be some nuance in language for Warner to be making that statement about the quality being equivalent.  The technology of burning a disc versus pressing a disc are completely different, so it's impossible to state that the quality levels are somehow identical as we're comparing apples to oranges.  I have no doubt that Warner is using the best quality materials when making their product.  Obviously, the source material and transfers are identical.  However, I never thought there was any question as to which manufacturing process was superior here, which is really what this all boils down to.

It isn't just the pressed vs burnt issue that causes me to strongly prefer a retail release for the BB over an Archive.   To this consumer, Archive releases are overpriced; there are no English subtitles or other value added content other than trailers.  I don't begrudge anyone for buying Archive discs for the films they currently have available; if it works for them, that's great.  I just think the BB films are worthy of a retail release and that they will do quite well in that arena.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve...O 

 

 I just think the BB films are worthy of a retail release and that they will do quite well in that arena.

 

 

 

But if they were don't you think Warner would have already released them?  I mean, there must have been a reason why they never put these out when DVD started, when DVD was taking off or in its last few years when we were getting official releases.  Heck, they didn't even pay the series too much attention on VHS.

I personally don't buy into the bullshit of "DVD is dead, Long Live Blu" but I think it's safe to say that retail releases are just about done for.  Wal-Mart and Target aren't going to carry anything like the BB and Best Buy probably won't either considering how many titles they're cutting.  If those places aren't going to stock something then what value does Warner have to spend the extra money for a retail release?

I agree with what you said about the Archive titles, although I'm sure Warner wouldn't be charging $20 for one 65-minute movie.  Their shorts sets are a terrific value and I'm sure they'd do something like this on these movies.
 

I don't think it means anything that Warner has waited so long to release the Bowery Boys, in so far as being able to accurately judge "how they'll sell or not". WB has always been known to take a long long time to release titles because they've always waited to get the proper elements. Remember KING KONG? How long did that take to come out to DVD? Do you think it was because KONG had no potential?

The fact is, even though there are employees paid to "know the market", they cannot "know" for a fact how the Bowery Boys will do until they're released. What sure-fire, fool-proof, guaranteed criteria is there that they "won't do well"?  They may turn out to be a flop, but they may not. 
 

I'll be heartbroken if these get released in the Archives since Warners still wont offer the titles to Canadians.  Purchasing them off a 3rd party site, even one like Amazon.com means a huge price increase since I'll never get a "Buy 2, get one free" type deal I've heard offered to counter act the already inflated retail of the archives series.  I've been waiting for this series to arrive on DVD for ages to give to my Dad, it's looking like Dad wont make it due to the constant delays which is only adding to the bitter taste I'm getting from all this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Karlosi 

I don't think it means anything that Warner has waited so long to release the Bowery Boys, in so far as being able to accurately judge "how they'll sell or not". WB has always been known to take a long long time to release titles because they've always waited to get the proper elements. Remember KING KONG? How long did that take to come out to DVD? Do you think it was because KONG had no potential?

 

The fact is, even though there are employees paid to "know the market", they cannot "know" for a fact how the Bowery Boys will do until they're released. What sure-fire, fool-proof, guaranteed criteria is there that they "won't do well"?  They may turn out to be a flop, but they may not. 
 

If Universal can do all right selling "Abbott and Costello" 8 film collections for $20 a pop, there's no reason to think Warners can't do the same with the Bowery Boys.  I know numerous people who blind bought the A&C sets (myself included) since they were a good deal and I heard they where funny. 

People should really go back and re-read this entire thread as it's a lot more entertaining than most of the movies in the series.  I won't call anyone out but the opinions that have changed over the past five years is pretty funny to read.  Me alone, I went from a must buy to there's no way in hell I'd ever buy this collection no matter how they are released or if Criterion releases them with the ghosts of Hall and Gorcey doing commentary tracks.

At the start of the thread people weren't going to buy them if they weren't in order.  Then some said they wouldn't buy them if Warner didn't release the post-53 in widescreen.  Then some weren't buying if the sets were of lesser quality.  Then people wouldn't buy if the later films weren't released.  Then they wouldn't buy if they went to the Archive.

The Bowery Boys coming to DVD started with a quote from Warner in 2003.  Almost eight years later there's nothing going on but more debates from people on the outside throwing around opinions and thoughts.

The 8-film Abbott and Costello sound good for 2011?  It was brought up in 2006.  Just about every option has been discussed over the years and we're still sitting here wondering what to do.

The funniest thing for me is that in the first five or six pages I keep asking why TCM doesn't show these films.  They've at least gotten this taken care of. 

Either way, to anyone who took part, this has to be the greatest thread in the history of HTF.

Well, Michael, in the first place this discussion shouldn't have needed to exist for five to eight years. The delay in this release is just crazy, in my personal and candid opinion. But the reality is that it has taken this long, and are you surprised? And why aren't people allowed to change their point of view in 5-8 years?  You mentioned that you "won't call anyone out", as though it's some sort of bad thing to change one's mind... yet you yourself admitted you went from a "must buy" to a "no way in hell I'd buy".

Remember how many times you and I used to debate Warner Home Video since we first met online in 2002?  Don't forget that people were always bringing up how Warner waits and waits and waits for the best possible elements before they'll commit to a DVD... or at least that's always what we've been told by them in chats ("this movie needs major restoration; no time soon!"). KING KONG is one of the biggest and best movies of all time, and although DVD premiered in 1997, how long did it take WB to give us a KONG disc... something like 8 years ? In the end, KONG was more than worth the long wait. But with the Bowery Boys, the elements to 48 movies are not as easy, and some of them were said to be in pretty rough shape.

As for the enjoyment potential of these films, I made it clear before you began watching them that they're not "great movies" or anything like that. But that should not matter when it comes to releases, and if it's true as you say that there's now no way you would ever buy them yourself, I can't help but wonder why you are even concerned with this thread? You have made your opinion more than clear on this and other sites that you feel "DVD is Dead" and that "Streaming Will Take Over". So what does any of this release stuff matter to you, really?

(Now, if you will all excuse me, I have to go and round up a bulky old blank VHS tape so I can set the VCR timer to record this week's Bowery Boys film off TCM that's still not available on DVD. Gee, I sure hope the cable doesn't go out or anything while I'm at work...   ).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Karlosi 

 

 

I can't help but wonder why you are even concerned with this thread? You have made your opinion more than clear on this and other sites that you feel "DVD is Dead" and that "Streaming Will Take Over". So what does any of this release stuff matter to you, really?

 

(Now, if you will all excuse me, I have to go and round up a bulky old blank VHS tape so I can set the VCR timer to record this week's Bowery Boys film off TCM that's still not available on DVD. Gee, I sure hope the cable doesn't go out or anything while I'm at work...   ).

You've always been one who likes to go after anyone so before you try it with me with such a quote you should probably go back and read post 575 where I said the exact opposite of what you're trying to quote me on with the bolded text.  So, first of all, get some facts in order before you try saying what my plans are or speaking for me.

As to why I posted, well, it's the same reason you post in the streaming threads.

Sorry to hi-jack the discussion here but I felt that anyone recording the TCM airings of the Bowery Boys series should know that there was a problem with the January 8th airing of 1955's SPY CHASERS. Reels were shown out of order...I think the same thing happened a few years back when TCM aired the BB series. I'll have to dig out my VHS tape and check it.

I just finished dubbing the film together in the correct order.

"you should probably go back and read post 575 where I said the exact opposite of what you're trying to quote me on with the bolded text.  So, first of all, get some facts in order before you try saying what my plans are or speaking for me".

Michael, this is turning into a fight and I didn't want it to go that route.  So I apologize if I have misunderstood you somewhere along the line. I was not responding to your post 575 there; I was talking about what you've said over at the 'Classic Horror Film Boards' on the same topic of physcial media vs. streaming. All I meant was that you most definitely have said on that other board that you feel 'Streaming' is the way of the future, and that 'physcial media' has had its day and is going down. Whenever I would tell you that there are people over at Home Theater Forum who feel differently, you have told me: "Well, that's because over at HTF they are all media fans, so naturally they would feel that way".  You have said you no longer buy discs, that you're happy to stream movies or watch TCM, and all of that. Do you still feel that way, or are you buying again? You're getting me mixed up, so it'll be my bad if I am misunderstanding you. As you said yourself, opinions have changed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBailey 

Sorry to hi-jack the discussion here but I felt that anyone recording the TCM airings of the Bowery Boys series should know that there was a problem with the January 8th airing of 1955's SPY CHASERS. Reels were shown out of order...I think the same thing happened a few years back when TCM aired the BB series. I'll have to dig out my VHS tape and check it.

 

I just finished dubbing the film together in the correct order.

I'm sorry to hear this. I'd heard that the reels were messed up the last time this movie aired and I was hoping it wouldn't happen again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBailey 

Sorry to hi-jack the discussion here but I felt that anyone recording the TCM airings of the Bowery Boys series should know that there was a problem with the January 8th airing of 1955's SPY CHASERS. Reels were shown out of order...I think the same thing happened a few years back when TCM aired the BB series. I'll have to dig out my VHS tape and check it.

 

I just finished dubbing the film together in the correct order.

I recorded Spy Chasers too because I needed an upgrade of this one, I did notice a couple things seemed to be out of place. Oh well, I won't worry about it but you would think TCM would have their act together. Maybe when I have time I'll redub it and put it in the right order. My Bowery Boys movies are mostly airings I recorded from WGN Chicago in the 1980's. A few I recorded from TCM, two titles are Warner VHS's from 1992, two others are airings from a Texas TV station.
 

Is there a time frame to skip ahead and then go back so that you watch the film in the correct order?  I'm guessing something "later" in the film was shown earlier than it should have or perhaps the other way around?  I was getting ready to watch it so I'm glad I checked the thread first.

I think it's basically the 35 to 55 minute parts of the movie that are messed up. Those two reels are in reverse order. I'll just go ahead and redub this, but damn it's a pain in the ass! Stupid TCM.

The first 35 minutes are fine.

 After Lady Zelda hypnotizes Sach, she is on the phone and says "Hello Nick! I want you to get in touch with Boris and George." (Fade to black at about 35 minutes in)

Next, skip to approx. 44 minutes into the film. The first shot in this segment is a close-up of a wall clock in the  Sweet Shop. The clock reads about 5 minutes past 4 a.m.

This segment goes to about 53:30 or so into the film and end with a shot of Lady Zelda at a radio transmitter as the Princess enters the room. Zelda says, "Everything is going according to plan.The moment the King leaves, we will notify you in ample time to seize him at the airport". Followed by a quick dump to black.

Next, rewind back to the 35 minute point and you'll start with a reaction shot of Zelda seeing the princess and the princess in the doorway with a gun pointed  at her side. This segment goes to about the 44 minute mark. There's a 3 shot of Louie, Sach and Slip. Slip says "Wait'll I get my hands on that Colonel Baxis!". Louie says "Wait'll I get my hands on that phoney courier!" and Sach says "Wait'll I get my hands on that Lady Zelda" followed by his cheek roll.

Now, forward to about 53;30 or so and the final segment begins with a long shot of King Roko, Colonel Baxis and Lady Zelda preparing to leave for the airport. Baxis is looking at his watch.

Hope this helps!

I've heard back from the gentleman who had the conversation with Gary Hall about the supposed plan to release all films by July.

Something doesn't sound right.  Essentially Gary Hall is saying he was told that Warner is going to release a series of box sets of all incarnations of the gang including the Little Tough Guys.  The problem with this is that Warner does not own the first Dead End Kids movie (MGM does) nor do they own the LTG series (Universal made them).  Warner has already released a couple of DEK films (one of which was an Archive release).   A release of public domain East Side Kids films seems improbable also.

Just my opinion, but I don't think these reported remarks by Mr. Hall are anything to get excited about. 

Wow, thanks a lot!!  It'll be a strange way to watch a movie but if I can watch them in a foreign language that I don't know without subtitles then I should be able to make it through this.

Thanks again.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBailey 

The first 35 minutes are fine.

 After Lady Zelda hypnotizes Sach, she is on the phone and says "Hello Nick! I want you to get in touch with Boris and George." (Fade to black at about 35 minutes in)

 

Next, skip to approx. 44 minutes into the film. The first shot in this segment is a close-up of a wall clock in the  Sweet Shop. The clock reads about 5 minutes past 4 a.m.

This segment goes to about 53:30 or so into the film and end with a shot of Lady Zelda at a radio transmitter as the Princess enters the room. Zelda says, "Everything is going according to plan.The moment the King leaves, we will notify you in ample time to seize him at the airport". Followed by a quick dump to black.

 

Next, rewind back to the 35 minute point and you'll start with a reaction shot of Zelda seeing the princess and the princess in the doorway with a gun pointed  at her side. This segment goes to about the 44 minute mark. There's a 3 shot of Louie, Sach and Slip. Slip says "Wait'll I get my hands on that Colonel Baxis!". Louie says "Wait'll I get my hands on that phoney courier!" and Sach says "Wait'll I get my hands on that Lady Zelda" followed by his cheek roll.

 

Now, forward to about 53;30 or so and the final segment begins with a long shot of King Roko, Colonel Baxis and Lady Zelda preparing to leave for the airport. Baxis is looking at his watch.

 

Hope this helps!

Yes, thanks for the help with the correct order of scenes. I think eventually I'll transfer my VHS recording to a DVD-R, and as I do that I will re-edit the reels.

John Hall, thank you so much for the detailed notes about the reel mix up. It was invaluable in making my DVD copy and keeping some semblance of order and ease in the process. It was a bit involved, but thanks to your comprehensive starting and stop points, I was able to create a seamless DVD of the film in the proper order. Thanks again!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lecagr 

I also wonder if perhaps part of the reason for the delay from Warner's is they don't have good prints of the seven Stan Clements films. My copies of those don't look pristine, but they are complete and the quality is decent, probably 7 or 8 on a scale of 10.
 

Warner remade the printing negative for HOLD THAT HYPNOTIST in the early 1980s, and the 16mm syndication print is a slight step down from the former Allied Artists TV prints. Most of the TCM versions derive from 35mm so the quality should be fine across the board. Turner did run IN THE MONEY in the 1990s as part of a marathon, so there are broadcast masters on the Hall-Clements movies.

If anyone from Warner is reading this: thank you for keeping these films in mind. I know there are many, many fans who would support a video release. Should a chronological release be impractical, I posted this in 2007:

_______________________________________________

TCM is indeed showing the entire run of the series, which concludes in April:

April 2: LOOKING FOR DANGER

April 9: UP IN SMOKE

April 16: IN THE MONEY

Thank you, TCM, for moving ahead with Huntz Hall and Stanley Clements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein 

Scott,

 

When is TCM going to start showing these?

 

I have to set up my DVR to record.

 

Thanks

TCM have been showing the series (with a couple of occasional breaks) on Saturday mornings for the past few months.

Yes, the series is going on hiatus for four weeks (TCM is devoting February to Academy Award-recognized films). The Bowery Boys return with Huntz Hall and Stanley Clements on Saturday, March 5 (10:30 a.m. Eastern time).

Actually they started showing the series in March 2010 so its been almost a year now.

Ron, , does your comment about wanting to set your DVR to record these films mean you believe that releases are not forthcoming or is that reading too much into it? 

Scott M - great to see you posting in this thread! I agree that its nice that Stanley Clements is getting some exposure on TCM so that those of us who haven't seen these (at least recently) can watch them and make up our own minds about their merits. Like the latter day L&H films that you wrote so eloquently about in your book, these post Gorcey films are likely not as bad as their reputation would suggest.  After all, any film with Huntz Hall is still better a film without Huntz Hall :)

The first with Clements (FIGHTING TROUBLE) is okay; Clements plays "Duke Coveleskie" about the same as he plays "Stash Martin" in MILITARY ACADEMY -- streetwise, not much humor. HOT SHOTS shows him to better advantage, and by the time of HOLD THAT HYPNOTIST Clements has settled into the role, the entire team is close-knit, and Hall ad-libs like crazy. Don't miss these if you like The Bowery Boys.