THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans (UPDATE 4/19:... - Page 8

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Problem with that is I am sure Warner has some pride in what it puts out on the market and not just some sub-quality print any $1 distributor releases. And if they did you would get another group of people bitching because of what Warner "should have done".

Also I am sure those boots are from broadcasts and broadcast prints have different distribution rights than VHS or DVD - each format has a separate set of contract stipulations so you can't simply say copy what was already released on VHS onto DVD because it just doesn't work that way in the legal department.

Eric

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

I didn't have TCM back then so that's why I missed this. It looks like they'd reair them just to get some newer people interested in them.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Warner Brothers released an official VHS release of 6 of the films that is what I was referring to and they also released the catalog to be shown to TCM and A & E back in the 90's. Their logo was at the beginning of every film so they have copies of all the films they just don't have pristine copies of a few of the films that they are looking for so as I said if its not possible to release all restored to pristine glory because of cost then release what they have. They can do some remastering to what they have. Its better than nothing. They've released westerns like "Escape from Fort Bravo" with poor color because of the color process originally used and also released many 50's and 60's stereo films in mono as examples and pride did not stop them there.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

No my original vote was release them in Chronological order and skip the problem films and come back to them when good prints are found. But if its a question of cost or the "economy" then release all that they have with the prints they have in chronological order vs. not getting them because of the cost of spending tons of money to restore b-films. Most b-films don't get that extra special care for DVD release anyways. These films are not Gone with the Wind or Casablanca or even Duck Soup or A Night at the Opera to make comedy references. Don't get me wrong as a big fan I would love to see these films look like they were made yesterday but I'm realistic about them and don't have my expectations that high.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Randy... you didn't listen to what I said. Even if Warner owns the copyright they may not own the distribution rights 100% Often if something "was" released on VHS doesn't mean they have the contract rights to release it on DVD! It's a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo but that is just the way it works. They may not have legal distribution rights to release what they used on VHS onto DVD or had to work around to getting it - or look for other sources, hopefully better.

Eric

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

As I keep pointing out though, Warner has indeed cut corners with some less-than-pristine prints for some releases where they had to.

As far as the bitching goes, as long as there are humans you'll get people disagreeing and offering their ideas of what "should" or "should not" be done.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Any examples?

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

I have to admit that Warner in years past may have released inferior DVDs especially in the early days. But I can admire what they do "now" and love the -total movie experience- packages they put together for classics (newsreels, trailers, cartoons, etc..). And how many defective Warner discs have you run across? They have the software and experience now to run these through pretty quickly and still come out way ahead of others. But if I were them, I would try my damndest to make sure what they put out there now will be the last and no need to redo the transfers.

Lets use another example - you know that Paramount gave Legend (the colorizing people) rights to release certain titles that would be in low demand for them but at the same time Legend has/had a reputation of "restoring" the original print as well as a colorized version as a second option. I picked up a copy of "The Skull" (1965) they did for Paramount and have to say that I was disappointed... for someone who prides themselves in restoring titles, this one had specks and dirt all through it and even a hair jumping up and down in the skull intro. They too have the experience and could have cleaned this up easily but for some reason didn't where as Warner would have taken time to make sure their print was clean and the best. Hell, that damned hair was very noticable and could have been removed from the printing process! Someone was asleep on the job.

Eric

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Yes. I have been repeating the same ones several times during the course of this thread to the point where I fear it's becoming redundant. But the most recent time was within my comments back on post #192, last page.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Eric, I think Warner is the best when it comes to their DVD presentations and quality. All I have done was point out a few odd exceptions where they had to, in fact, decide not to be sticklers about "pristine quality' where they had no alternatives. And those DVDs are not from that long ago. But my only point is that I don't see why The Bowery Boys should be any greater exception for them, especially when there are a whopping 48 films to locate great elements for.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Joe... I see what you are saying in #192 and Randy's reply. True, with these minor studios that went under decades ago, it may be next to impossible to find all movies in pristine condition or reels that haven't deteriorated especially from a buget Poverty Row studio. But Warner can make the best of what they find and even may have the technology to make it look new but I am sure they want to exercise due diligence before giving in and running across a better print "after the fact".

I am 51 years old and I never even heard of the Bowery Boys (or Dead End Kids) until a couple of years ago. The people who grew up with them have either forgotten or passed on as all of the cast members are dead as well. These were minor releases when new (1946-1958) and had a following but not a blanket mass appeal and they have less appeal today. EVEN if the window of opportunity was still open (which it is closing each day) it is a niche release.

Eric

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Eric
What you just said is the point Joe and I have been trying to make. There is a niche audience for these films now that will buy them, very few others will and there will be very few new converts in the future. The economy is not an issue. The longer they wait the smaller the niche market will get due to age. So looking for perfect prints that may or may not exist just causes the potentential market to get smaller and smaller the longer it is delayed.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

If that's true then hopefully Warner won't release these and will work on something else.

THE DEFENCE PRESENTS ITS CASE!!!!!

Dr. Simon Noble (Robert Foulk): "You are Horatio guarding the bridge."

Horace Debussy "Sach" Jones (Huntz Hall) under hypnosis: "I am Horactio guarding the bridge."

Dr. Noble: "And what did Horactio say when he was guarding the bridge?"

Sach: "Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes!"

Dr. Noble: "No! No! Horatio guarding the bridge!"

Sach: "They shall not pass...until you see the whites of their eyes!"

--A typical nonsequetor exchange from HOLD THAT HYPNOTIST (1957) screenplay by Dan Pepper and directed by Austen Jewell.

I have gone on record and will continue to emphatically state that a Bowery Boys DVD release will do very well indeed...albeit there will always be skeptics who just stubbornly can't be convinced of this despite the most reasoned and convincing arguments made (see THE INVADERS tv series discussion thread)!

Now "other" contemporary comedy teams of the period Laurel and Hardy, the Marx Brothers, the Three Stooges and Abbott and Costello (all fine and exceedingly popular in their own rights) have been mentioned except that (discounting Laurel and Hardy) these groups have been over-exposed and are over-familiar to the point of outright "ennui" on the part of the DVD consumer (I am not including Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis as this once sensational comedy team of the 1950s hasn't been given much attention either until the welcomed DVD releases of most of their splendid films).

I am saying this solely in the context that these aforementioned films as good (or even great) as they are have been seen to death and let's be totally honest about it!

Not being as well-known (and even that conclusion is somewhat debatable) the Bowery Boys have the distinct advantage of being something totally fresh and new especially to the younger aged demographic that may not be as familiar with this highly entertaining film series (I once again refer to the overwhelming success of the similar "dark horse" proposition THE INVADERS which many critical disbelievers never gave any chance of succeeding as well as it has).

In their day which literally covers an impressive three decades this particular comedy team (or group) in its various incarnations (as either the Dead End Kids, Little Tough Guys, Eastside Kids or Bowery Boys) has always scored exceedingly well with the movie audiences. Obviously they wouldn't have gone as long as they did if they weren't popular!

On television major U.S. cities like New York, Los Angeles and Detroit always had a weekly "East Side Comedy" hour airing these timeless screen classics to enthusiastic viewers...and this syndicated property may well still be carried in these major tv markets to this very day!

Unlike the majority of their "rivals" the Bowery Boys have always successfully transcended each succeeding decade (impressively encompassing the 1930s to the late 1950s).

The Bowery Boys also have potential appeal to fans of both 1940s and 1950s films two decades which their movies extensively covered and if Leo Gorcey hadn't prematurely dropped out of this extraordinary screen series it would have likely carried on (at the very least) right up to 1960. Huntz Hall himself said that with the departure of his good friend and coworker Leo he merely finished out his contract and decided to throw-in-the-towel himself.

To help give a necessary "clarity" of vision here all that it being requested on the part of Warner Brothers Home Entertainment is the release of the initial volume one of this proposed Bowery Boys DVD release which will consist of the first 6 to 8 films in the series. Just how many films will be included on this initial volume release anyway?

Naturally if it scores well (as I insist that it will) Warners will logically carry on with the next and the profits encurred will (or should) be primarily invested in the continuation of volume two.

I just recently said this before and I am saying it again if Warner Brother Home Entertainment looses any money it won't be because of the Bowery Boys.

The onus is now on the company (if it has any doubts) to prove me wrong on this...and I am NOT wrong! I am dead right!

As far as actual restoration is concerned from what I have purchased Warner Brothers' track record on the older films and tv series is quite abysmally poor (ie. read the recent online DVD reviews of the just released THE PICTURE OF DORIAN GRAY) but times and consumer expectations are rapidly changing and (once again) as I previously said full restoration from the original 35mm print negatives would make good sense as this would serve two significant purposes: 01) for a quality DVD release and 02) a renewed and vastly improved upon tv syndication property from which the initial investment of the actual restoration will reap definite profits.

At least in my own experience the Bowery Boys films which I saw on television have always been extensively edited to fit an hour time slot (discounting the commercial breaks these shortened syndicated versions must be 50 minutes in length) and in the case of the earlier entries produced many of them ran up to 70 minutes in length.

So it would seem that returning back to the original source elements is not only desirable but necessary.

My last bit of evidence to be submitted to the jury on behalf of "my" (much maligned) client is a weblink to an online videoclip of varying vignettes as a tangible example of the Bowery Boys' special brand of humour (taken from NO HOLDS BARRED, JALOPY and DIG THAT URANIUM):

THE BOWERY BOYS (Click Here).

Judge for yourselves. Seeing is believing. Right Cornelius?!

Bring on the Bowery Boys on a quality DVD release!!!!!

Jeff T.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

This gets to the point of "mass appeal" vs. "collector appeal" and one reason why Warner should be given an opportunity to find the best elements because they will be in "collections" rather than thrown about in the average family room. The collector will be more scrutinizing.

It is a shame in general that these older films have fallen through the cracks as has Silents because the newer generations don't want to bother with anything in black and white believing it to be boring and one reason why a company like Legend has colorized some to re-introduce classics to a younger audiance.

Eric

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Silents are actually more popular than ever if you go buy DVD sales from various companies. If someone really thinks these titles aren't going to appeal to a newer crowd then Warner is just wasting time and money.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

If that is the case, then we have 15 years of silent films - a boat load, that needs to see the light of day on DVD. Problem is that a VERY LARGE percentage of silents have been lost forever.

Another problem is demographics. Just who are watching silents? Is it the 10-25 year old crowds? Doubt it.

I am hoping that Warner, MGM, Paramount, etc... will release some of their archives soon but unfortunately they too would only appeal to a niche market.

Do you have figures with titles by Kino who specializes in these? Any particular title and how long has it been on the market to see how profitable they are - or aren't?

Eric

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Why release Black & White Horror films other than the classic Universal monsters. The same statements can be applied. The niche audience is enough for B & W horror to be sucessful and it is for the Bowery Boys to be released. Neither has or will have many new converts. The majority of people under 30 have no interest in anything Black and White. I know there are exceptions but I meant the majority which means very few new converts.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Randy, I think the Universal Horrors are a class all their own. They have been around so long, was cutting edge and introduced horror to a very conservative society at the time. They are historical in the movie annals... and have been around on 16mm, VHS, Laser, and DVD so many people have already been exposed to them. Unlike some smaller title that got limited distribution and no aftermarket exposure to say of except TV. So it is not completely fair to include them in your umbrella statement but should be excluded for fairness to all of the "niche" titles we are speaking of. That would be like comparing a Bentley to a Yugo to someone who doesn't have the ability to compare on their own.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Which is exactly why I said other than the Universal Classic Horrors. There have been tons of B & W horror released by the Major studios and lesser studios on DVD that are cult films with niche audiences that are exactly the same as the Bowery Boys would be.
Warners already know that the Niche audience is large enough to release the Bowery Boys or they wouldn't even be considering it. It sounds like a few in here are implying that if Warners were to wait 2, 5 or however many years it takes to find Great Prints and restore all of them that people will suddenly line up around the block of their local DVD store just to buy the new Bowery Boys release because all the films are restored from newly found prints. Of Course they won't; so What Joe and I are saying is release remastered prints of what they have before the niche audience starts to die away and the potential profit with it. No one is forcing anyone to buy this if you don't want it.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

I think releases based on quality of prints may be best. Like the Doctor Who range; it isn't chronological but based on which releases are ready. Some require a huge amount of restoration - including the reconstruction of original colour and even the original video medium itself

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Eric,

I think you need to re-read Randy's post - clearly he is excluding the Universal Monsters from his statement.

Randy,

While your statement on new converts, although sobering is probably correct, I'm guessing that B&W horror films have a much, much larger perspective audience than The Bowery Boys. B&W horror is on all the time (much like B&W Noir films) The Bowery Boys aren't.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Michael, you're one of those younger people who will be trying out the Bowery Boys films (or most of them) for the first time, if I remember correctly. I think it's great, but I also think your feeling above is basically sort of a "resentment" of the stereotype, because some of us feel that the MAJORITY of buyers will be the core older viewers who grew up with these films on TV. I'm not suggesting "NO" younger people or "newbies" will take the plunge... you are living proof of that ... but they'll be the exception, IMO.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

You need to look around a tad bit more if you think new people aren't being introduced to these films via DVD or TCM. Not to sound rude but the "older folks" are the one who will be dying off sooner so introducing these to a newer crowd who will then introduce them to someone younger is the way to keep them alive. Most of the folks who saw these in the theater are already dead so most "fans" that you speak of were introduced to them via television so they aren't original fans either. The key to film's staying alive are new fans being introduced to them and taking them into future years.

Again, if you really think only older folks are going to buy these then you need to get off Warner's back for not releasing them yet. If only "fans" were going to buy these and there were no new buyers then it would be pointless and sure to lose money.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Michael Elliott can continue to ignore me 'til the cows come home (shrug), but I will never shy away nor turn a deaf ear to others' opinions nor refrain from giving my responses to them. So...


Once again, it's great that a young 28-year-old movie buff like Michael Elliott is into trying out all sorts of films, and it would be great if many others followed his example; but he's a relatively rare exception, and in the minority. Nobody's saying there are zero younger people who'll try out these movies; just that they're in the minority. If the Bowery Boys (not to be confused with "The Eastside Kids") don't have any DVDs released yet, how have "new people been introduced to them on DVD"? If they haven't been shown on TCM since 2001, how have "new people been introduced them by TCM?" Besides -- TCM is largely a station for older people. Your average 20-year-old doesn't even want to see black and white movies, period.


Indeed... without a doubt. But how do you propose to get scores of 20-year-olds interested in doing blind buys of 48 films in "boring old black and white", featuring some old obscure comedy team they've never heard of? The percentage of diehard movie buffs of that younger age group who'll watch anything from silents to today is VERY tiny. Actually, the same goes for older people like myself - I won't watch everything or just anything, either. The ratio of open-minded movie fans may seem bigger to you when reading posts here at HTF, but this forum is not indicative of the whole world at large.


Here you're just arguing semantics. Whether or not those of us who saw them on TV growing up are "original first generation fans" is not the issue at all. We're still well aware of them from having been exposed to the movies on a daily basis during our youth. Many kids today haven't even seen I LOVE LUCY or THE HONEYMOONERS, never mind The Bowery Boys!

By the way, not that it means anything, but since you mentioned it -- there can still be plenty of fans alive today who saw The Bowery Boys films at a young age when they played in theaters. But whether they saw them regularly at the theater or home on TV, THESE are the core people awaiting these DVDs.


To this I would answer that it still hasn't kept Warner from releasing tons of older films of other types as well.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Valid points to be sure. As long as a film resonates with a new generation it's bound to take on a new life to some degree.

Certainly we can all agree that it's not just first generation viewers that matter. DVD purchases is somewhat analogous to car purchases. It's not just the initial buyer of the 1965 Pontiac GTO, it's also the purchaser who buys it as a vintage car. And the people buying a 1965 Pontiac GTO is mostly the 45 - 60 year old dude who admired the car when he first saw it as a teenager and now has some cash in his bank account.

It's also true that films that interest us will interest anyone, but new generations ... it's generally limited to quality stuff. Look at Facebook profiles and see just how many 16-22 year olds love Rear Window or Fellini films. It's a beautiful thing.

I question whether The Bowery Boys, endearing as they are, will resonate with a new generation. The production never were intended to be 'A' stuff from the get-go, so it merely becomes anyone's guess.

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Joe already covered my response pretty well but I'll add I think you under-estimate the core audience for the Bowery Boys. Its at least as large as something like the Charlie Chan films and those are making enough money to get continued releases.
And while its great that you are young and into older films you are in a small minority and I have done my part many times with family members and co- workers that are younger to help introduce them to older films and TV but it meets with very limited results. My niece mildly enjoying I Love Lucy is about the biggest result. The majority of younger viewers just aren't interested in older films. Many of them will watch all time classic films once just to say they have seen them but will not go far beyond that. Certainly not to go out and buy an old B-movie Comedy team that they have never heard of. Again the main buyers are the older core audience with very few new converts. So the moneys here today for the Bowery Boys but for how much longer....

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

I still think there is some misconception by many especially younger people that the studios can put whatever they originally produced onto a DVD for .05¢ per copy and not worry about profits. There is a lot more involved than that which means the studio has to make a profit and not have dead stock lying around. A lot of things happen behind the scene that people just don't think about - like unsung heros. How many praise support staff in large offices? Let something go wrong and they complain but as long as everything runs smooth, there is no thanks.

Like someone else mentioned, it may seem like a major release or desired title for a few hundred, if that many, people interested in this thread on HTF as opposed to millions of DVD buyers who don't even know this website exists. Yes, studios have to look at the BIG picture.

I am still in awe as to why younger audiences run away from b&w movies? And get a laugh when they speak of a 1980s film as being "old".

It is this fact that I am puzzled as to why studios haven't pushed more for "on demand" DVDs like was proposed 2 years ago through HP and others? No overhead to speak of, and can sell a few high quality burned copies of a library title "as is" that doesn't have mass appeal.

Eric

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

What is it with you and "young people"

I see many fans of all ages, assume the studios can easily release anything. I think the reason for a long time we saw a wide variety of releases is that the studios could afford to cater to mainstream tastes AND the niches.

This is not as easy now. The stores give more and more space over to mainstream titles, including large discount sections. Niche titles have much less space dedicated to them. Its much harder to get a store to buy the products. This creates a cyclical problem. Stores won't buy them, so people can't see them when browsing, so titles can't get sold to inspire new releases

And as for "young people", well its quite common for people to be become less tolerant of non-mainstream things once they reach puberty, and this carries on into adulthood. I suspect this comes from the sudden increase of responsibilites and pressures of adulthood, which leads people to be less paitient and daring. I know many boomers who HATE black and white. Also, black and white tv, and old films in general, are very rare on UK tv at least in recent years. When I was 8, it was very easy to see classics like King Kong, and even rarer curios like Return of the Vampire on the major UK channels. Now, despite the introduction of 24hr tv, they have gone. How are people supposed to get interested in these films if they are not having an opportunity to do so in the first place. An 8 year old can't exactly rush online and buy Return of the Vampire!

re: THE BOWERY BOYS on DVD: continuing discussion of Warner's eventual release plans

Eric,

Some good news, perhaps. Our children not only love b&w films, but they prefer them. They think b&w films are creepier (even when they are not horror-related). To partially quote R. Ebert, such films often have a 'timeless' quality to them. Through repeated viewings of several b&w films, I believe that they (our children) are beginning to see why this is so.