star trek the next generation complete set coming - Page 2

Re: star trek the next generation complete set coming

There's a review at The Digital Bits:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/review...92607.html#sta

Essentially, it's the same as the original release. The big difference is packaging and art and the 2 bonus documentaries. And the price is less then half of what is was back in the day! Depending on your point of view, thats either a good or bad thing.

Re: star trek the next generation complete set coming

I just received my set in the mail and noticed something, was curious if anyone else had this problem.

The packaging mentioned a "20th anniversary collectible poster" and "a reproduction of the USS Enterprise D Dedication Plate," which I assume is something that is seen folded out in the background of the released image of the set. However, my set didn't include or have these. Has anyone else had this problem?

ETA: Disregard this. Someone told me where to find it; it was glued to the inside of one of the disc holders. Sorry!

The news of ST: TNG coming to BR is interesting.  As we know, all the effects elements were shot in SD.  So, the hope is to get new F/X like the original.  I of course, wouldn't subscribe converting SD to 1080p.  But, I think back on the scrubbing issue.  If the studio removes most artifacts of film grain in movies like "Predator", what is the difference in replacing the SD elements?  Isn't the SD elements the intended version?  I find it interesting that certain BD websites argues that removing film grain destroys the original intent of the filmmaker.  So, also can be said of replaced effect elements.  I'm not advocating scrubbing, but to help preserve my beloved DVD.  Only the recent announcement of Star Wars being released has finally got me thinking to invest in BD.  Only a handful of my movies with I ever convert.  I went through all that during the LaserDisc years.

 

Yes, DVD compression creates it's own artifacts.  And the resolution difference can't be ignored.  But, BR actually enhances the imperfections of video or film content.  Not improve it.  Case in point, the SD F/X elements of ST.  It seems that BD websites are talking out both sides of the mouth.  I own a BR and it is superior to DVD.  But, it is a newer movie, with out the hang ups of older films.  

 

 

My final conclusion.  I want the best possible movie experience.  Regardless of the format or elements.  I will eventually join the BD bandwagon.  But as long as DVD lives, I stay wih the format that gave me a whole new experience with my beloved movies.

 

What do you think?  Should the F/X elements in ST:TNG be changed?  Or should they remain for their original intent.

 

Peace.

James,

 

Welcome to the HTF.

 

You must be referring to the post on the other blu ray thread regarding the news from the Las Vegas Star Trek convention that CBS is discussion how to do Star Trek TNG on blu ray?

 

There was no mention of redoing the effects in CGI or any definitive plans or release dates for TNG on BD. Speaking of only preparing the film elements for HD, I have confidence that the people who did the clean-up work on The Original Series for HD will do an excellent job on TNG, if they use the same people. Assuming you may not have seen the TOS BD set yet. I'm a long time fan and purist when it comes to The Original Series. I was very happy with the work they've done for Star Trek TOS. To my eyes, they did not DNR it to death. I don't think it was ever brought up in any discussions. I remember some of the promotional videos of the restoration effort discussed how there was film grain retained and that the new CGI effects were so clean, they had to add noise to them to avoid a jarring appearance when going from film to new CGI effects!

 

We've discussed here how amazingly clear the BD's of TOS are! The molding seam lines for the rubber ears that Leonard Nimoy wore can be seen as well as the join line where the rubber ears are attached to Nimoy's real ear. Close-ups of Shatner reveal a lot of facial detail. Fine lines are seen. And the costumes reveal a lot of detail not seen before!

 

The only controversial thing the CBS team did to TOS that was iffy was recreate the original theme music in higher quality. They didn't quite get it right. Though a very good job of recreating it. The great thing about the set is they include the original mono tracks.

 

As far as FX elements, CBS did us all a huge favor and included the original optical effects on the BD sets, so we have a choice to watch either. The CBS team did quite a monumental effort to create the new effects over a period of 2 years and under time constraints to meet syndication broadcast dates! Not the best conditions. The quality of work was always high and done with an eye towards effects that matched the 1960's and not be overly too good. So it was hit or miss, early shots of the Enterprise looked too flat or plasticy, but later in the process, the effects were quite good! On Space Seed and Doomsday Machine, the CGI were top notch!

 

For the TNG, I think the effects work of the first 2 seasons were okay, but got progressively better as the series went on. It's a tough call for TNG if CGI effects should be done to replace the originals. It should not be considered an automatic thing. Restoring TV shows for BD is a new thing and each series should be reviewed thoroughly to see what makes sense, in my opinion. In the case of TNG, CBS will probably consider the cost of the effort and the potential returns.

 

The only bad thing about the new CGI effects, is that given they could only work with an film negative, the new CGI shots had to be faded in earlier then the original fades so they mask the old effects. This throws off the timing with music and sound effects. If you really know the show, you can see this. For TNG, given they have all the separate elements, they can probably avoid this problem.

 

The main thrust for the TOS restoration and conversion to HD was to celebrate it's 40th Anniversary and to preserve the series. The TNG was a great series, and continued the themes of Gene Roddenberry. I think it's worthy of a restoration of effort. And it looks like it's just a matter of time. But I doubt the digital scrubbing will yield results with lots of DNR. I'd be real happy with a result like TOS and if the effects are still the originals, it could be okay. New CGI effects would no doubt be the icing on the cake! If they retain the same philosophy on TNG and include the original effects and mono tracks, the new BD sets would be a home run. Though probably expensive! 

I said this with TOS and the original Star Wars trilogy:

 

As long as the original version is included on the discs, I don't care what they do to the effects.  Side by side is the only way to go on these. 

Including the originals won't be like it was for TOS. As poor as some of the bluescreen may have been at times in TOS, it was all on film, and therefore transferable to HD at scale. Will seamless branching even work between SD and HD versions? I suspect not, in which case total episode duplication would be required (albeit at a smaller footprint for the SD version), in order to attain the TOSR Blu nirvana of having both versions with TNGR.

 

If they wanted seamless branching, they'd have to uprezz the SD stuff, moving from 29.97 interlaced to 24p,  and losing some of the original data (DS9 DVDs, anyone?). Surely they would not do the reverse, and force the whole project to 29.97i in order to accommodate seamless branching with the SD version. That would be crippling. Existing DVDs may remain definitive on TNG-SD, I'm thinking, though the compression is too steep for me, I'd hope they'd give it some more bits before turning the page.

 

Since they apparently have all the multipass footage of the "D" on film, those shots would be less "recreation" than "reassembly," with CGI reserved for things like phasers, shields, warped stars and like, with even some of those elements having been laid off to film and therefore available for the "reassembly" style upgrade.

 

I would guess that true CGI like Q's barrier in "Farpoint," Nagilum from "Where Silence Has Lease" and the phantom Husnock ship from "The Survivors" would be areas receiving totally new elements a la TOSR (since it was an illusion, was it intended to look "fake" to a degree?). 

 

The question for me, at least, is to what extent there are film elements that they won't go to, and create CGI rather than go through what is doubtless a more painstaking process. Hopefully they will maximize whatever film resources they do have, rather than recreating footage in CGI needlessly.

Edited by Joseph Burns - 8/16/10 at 11:33pm

Joseph, It completely slipped my mind that the TNG effects were all done in video at 480! Which is the main reason they are having trouble figuring out how to go to HD! I kept thinking that if they could retain the originals, it would be great to have them!

Nelson: I absolutely agree with the principle of providing originals. The Star Wars debates galvanized a generation. TOSR on Blu-Ray follows the tradition of movie releases like Close Encounters and Blade Runner with all versions included, and this is the approach I support generally whatever the title.

 

Having said that, TNG is a pickle. I've read that many elements that'd you'd think they would just do in video they did in fact shoot on film, like cloud tank stuff and other FX elements. So there are many opportunities for faithful reproduction in HD. Since the compositing was done in NTSC, the film frames don't always "gang" up in the composites, so any reproduction in a 24fps space by definition will be deciding which cadence to follow. Then there are the video elements that were actually generated at 29.97, which will obviously "feel" different when shown at 24, regardless of resolution. They can get close, but there will be subtle differences just from using the HD space for compositing, with better tools. 

 

IMHO, I'd like to see important effects that have been reimagined with the originals on disc as deleted scenes. Duplicating 178 episodes in total seems a little much for this. I would certainly like to see the original TNG episodes as broadcast with less compression. If they can do it, I'd certainly prefer an all-inclusive set. I'm trying to be understanding about the challenges this project faces, and I'd like to see TNGR on Blu no matter what.

The problem with TNG (also DS9 and Voyager) isn't just that the effect shots were done in 480i. The whole show was edited in 480i resolution!

 

This means that the film elements from the show are completely unedited. All they have are the raw reels that came out of the camera for each episode. Hours and hours of film for each episode. So unless the edit logs still exist, which is doubtful, the folks at CBS would have to go through each episode with a fine tooth comb, and try and figure out which takes of each shot were used for each scene. In some cases an actors performance might be made up of parts of take 4 and parts of take 8. They would have to figure out which is which by just looking at each episode frame by frame. Complicating this task is the fact that the sound for take 4 may have been re-synced and used on take 8. (not uncommon) This process would be far more time consuming and far more costly than shooting, editing and sound mixing the show originally.

 

Of course if they still have the edit logs, its just a matter of tracking down each shot and cutting it in at the right frame. Still a huge task, but not the nearly impossible a task if they have to make guesses.

 

All of this assumes that all of the film elements still exist and are still usable. Could they be missing? Stranger things have happened. Toward the end of season three of TOS, Roddenberry was taking film elements out of the editing rooms and cutting them up to sell at conventions. The editors would be looking for a shot and it would turn up missing.

 

Doug

Not a huge fan of TNG but would love to own it. And I can also see what they do here being the template for doing other shows, my favourite hopes being DS9 and Babylon 5.

 

Will be very interesting to see how they can approach it but I agree that they have to look long-term here and even though it may cost quite a bit, they will surely recoup their investment in the long-term being able to release the show in HD.

I wouldn't mind if they just dumped the SD episodes onto Blu-Ray for the sole reason of perhaps being able to have an entire season on 1 disc instead of like 5+ on DVD.