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Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

post #1 of 25
7/13/07 at 8:29pm
Thread Starter 
When it's as hot as it's been lately, nothing is better to drink than a gin & tonic. The bitter and the sour quenches better than the typical sweet syrup drinks.

The problem is simple....if you drink too many gin & tonics, you won't be able to stand up after a while.

Has anyone found a suitable flavor extract which I could use to substitute for gin? This way I could drink them all afternoon and not get plastered. I've seen extracts of juniper berries in a very small (and expensive) bottle, but apparently that's just the start for the botanicals added to neutral spirits to make gin.

EDIT For example, I've seen concotions such as those listed on this page. http://webtrolley.org/mivastore/merc...gory_Code=1200
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post #2 of 25
7/13/07 at 10:15pm

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Nicholls
Has anyone found a suitable flavor extract which I could use to substitute for gin?

maybe if you drank rain water that drained off a dead hooker's ass, you'd get close the flavor of gin without the alcohol (but adding hepatitis)

kevin t

ps....this is a thread fart and i approve this message
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post #3 of 25
7/13/07 at 10:57pm

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

I did find this description of what gin is

Quote:
Good gin, though, with its faint hint of juniper and other herbs and spices (the modern recipe also includes such flavorings as coriander, cardamom, angelica, caraway, cassia, citrus peel, and orrisroot),

source.

Bear in mind that alcohol is an organic solvent, and extracts different flavors than does water.
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post #4 of 25
7/15/07 at 5:25pm

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Well, you could buy a cheap gin, or a slightly better brand on sale, and then warm it on the stove, remove it from the heat, then apply a flame to burn off the alcohol. Allow the result to cool and you can use it in place of real gin.

Joe
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post #5 of 25
7/16/07 at 5:42pm

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino
Well, you could buy a cheap gin, or a slightly better brand on sale, and then warm it on the stove, remove it from the heat, then apply a flame to burn off the alcohol. Allow the result to cool and you can use it in place of real gin.

Joe

Right so, where you wrote 'the alcohol' there, I just wanted to check. You didn't mean 'your eyebrows' did you?
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post #6 of 25
7/16/07 at 5:49pm

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillJones
Right so, where you wrote 'the alcohol' there, I just wanted to check. You didn't mean 'your eyebrows' did you?

No, that's why I mentioned taking it off the heat first. Maybe I should have also specified the kind giant lighter used for starting gas grills or a really long fireplace match.

Regards,

Joe
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post #7 of 25
7/16/07 at 8:23pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Well I did give your suggestion a try. I put 1/3 cup of Gordon's into a half quart saucepan and warmed it on my gas barbeque. When it was hot, I lit it off with the propane wand lighter. Odd how it burns evenly from the surface. I had to agitate the saucepan to get the alcohol to burn off in a reasonable period of time. I took it back into the kitchen and used an ice bath to cool the resulting liquid. About 40% was missing which makes sense starting from 80 proof.

It didn't taste right. The resulting liquid had very little flavor at all, more like water with a faint hint of gin flavoring.
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post #8 of 25
7/17/07 at 6:01am

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

It's not really that surprising. When you warm the alcohol up, it's already evaporating. The alcohol that you set light to has already left the gin so burning it off is not neccersary. When you light it what you're doing is getting the surface a lot hotter and evaporating off a whole bunch of other liquids as well as evaporating the alcohol off faster. Did the surface boil?

I'm not sure if you could remove the alcohol without altering the flavour but I imagine you'd have to use a fractional distilator or heat it up to about 80 degrees and leave it at that for several hours.

Even then I doubt it'd taste the same.
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post #9 of 25
7/31/07 at 8:38pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Well I finally found a local supplier of juniper berries - Cost Plus. About $1 for several ounces. I ground some up in my mortar and pestle and threw them in with lime juice and tonic water.

Verdict: not quite the same. And the ground up juniper berries float and leave an unpleasant layer of ground berries on the surface. It's hard to drink past them. I suppose I could use a straw but that's just wrong.
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post #10 of 25
7/31/07 at 8:44pm

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Nicholls
Well I finally found a local supplier of juniper berries - Cost Plus. About $1 for several ounces. I ground some up in my mortar and pestle and threw them in with lime juice and tonic water.

Verdict: not quite the same. And the ground up juniper berries float and leave an unpleasant layer of ground berries on the surface. It's hard to drink past them. I suppose I could use a straw but that's just wrong.

Ugh, as said Hawkeye, a proper Martini is made with Gin. Personlly I prefer Vodka.
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post #11 of 25
8/1/07 at 5:03am

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Wow - fresh ground junipers... I admire your persistence ! I believe Gin is one of this elixirs that you just can't duplicate w.out alchohol.... kind of like dark rum or Mr Jack Daniels. But, keep it up, I'd love to hear if you find anything.
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post #12 of 25
8/1/07 at 12:06pm

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Nicholls
Well I did give your suggestion a try. I put 1/3 cup of Gordon's into a half quart saucepan and warmed it on my gas barbeque. When it was hot, I lit it off with the propane wand lighter...

It didn't taste right. The resulting liquid had very little flavor at all, more like water with a faint hint of gin flavoring.

The point of lighting the fumes is simply to give you a visual indicator to let you know when all the alcohol has, in fact, cooked off. Otherwise it is very hard to tell when you're done.

Now that I think about it, it isn't surprising that this method (which was purely theoretical) didn't work. The major flavor ingredients in the botanicals that go into gin are alcohol-soluable, so they would have been dissolved in the alcohol and burned off along with it, leaving basically water behind. A variety of booze flavored mostly with water-soluable ingredients (like wine) would have responded better to this method, although there are other problems associated with heating wine.

Regards,

Joe
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post #13 of 25
8/1/07 at 2:10pm

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

I have no idea what an essential oil is-- seems a bit shady to me--- but juniper berry oil is available from "aromatherapy" type sources. Most claim that that the esters are distilled with steam.
this article also mentions tea.
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post #14 of 25
8/1/07 at 3:28pm

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Quote:
And the ground up juniper berries float and leave an unpleasant layer of ground berries on the surface. It's hard to drink past them.

Try taking your liquid concoction & straining it through a couple of layers of cheesecloth. I don't know what the flavor will be like (without the berries, the cheesecloth adds none), but it's got to be better than ground floaties.
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post #15 of 25
8/1/07 at 3:57pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Yeah I've thought about making a strong tea out of the juniper berries - I could contain them in one of those tea infuser balls. At least there's always another use for juniper berries - making the marinade for sauerbraten!

www.thespicehouse.com/recipes/sauerbraten-recipe

Now I have to remember to buy gingersnaps......
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post #16 of 25
8/2/07 at 9:48am

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino

Now that I think about it, it isn't surprising that this method (which was purely theoretical) didn't work. The major flavor ingredients in the botanicals that go into gin are alcohol-soluable, so they would have been dissolved in the alcohol and burned off along with it, leaving basically water behind. A variety of booze flavored mostly with water-soluable ingredients (like wine) would have responded better to this method, although there are other problems associated with heating wine.

Regards,

Joe
That's not right. If that was the case purifying water by distilling it wouldn't work.

As for the juniper berries. I've never even seen a juniper berry. Can you juice them? What about boiling them for a long time and using the stock, if that's the right word.

Alternatively, why not try a Lime Rickey? It's made with A Lime quartered and muddled with brown sugar, then Angustura bitters and tonic water. There are several variations. The common one you see is using lime syrup but that's nowhere near as good.
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post #17 of 25
8/2/07 at 4:12pm

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Distilling Essential Oils

Quote:
Gin. It appears to me from 2 sites that of the main ingredients you need are 25g of juniper berries and 12.5g coriander seeds for each litre of alcohol (45%abv). The oil yield from juniper berries is 1.5% and for coriander seeds its 1%. Therefore about 7 drops of juniper oil and 3 drops of coriander oil would be quite sufficient, together with small amounts of the other herbals. Dutch gin is stronger flavored, and historically used malted grains in the mash. The use of pure alcohol is a modern idea.
...

Alcoholic strength effects aroma. The trigger point for volatile citric aromas would appear to be around 40%. Dilute to below that strength and you will kill them. 45% abv appears to be ideal for gin. The flavoring ingredients are all natural and are referred to as 'botanicals'. All gins include juniper and coriander. Gordon's also uses ginger, cassia oil and nutmeg. Beefeater uses bitter orange peel, angelica root and seed. Plymouth's 7 botanicals include sweet orange peel, cardamon . Bombay Sapphire uses cubeb berries, cassia bark, grains of paradise, almonds, lemon peel, liquorice, orris root, angelica root. Typically a fine gin contains 6-10 botanicals. The combination of botanicals is important. Angelica root helps to hold in the volatile citric aromas. In most cases the botanicals are steeped in 45% alcohol.This is then redistilled to release the essential oils from the botanicals (less than 5% of the weight - you can therefore work out your yield). Only the middle run at about 80-85% is used.

Not sure that you could use the result to flavor water, though.
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post #18 of 25
8/2/07 at 4:18pm

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillJones
That's not right. If that was the case purifying water by distilling it wouldn't work.

Maybe you should read up on fractional distillation. The vapor that comes off is not pure EtOH.

Quote:
The next essential in making fine brandy
is the speed of distillation:
the slower, the gentler,
the more effectively the aromatic elements
in the raw material are detached
with the alcohol, the better.
It is rather like stewing fruit:
the lower the flame on the stove,
the more intense the aromas released
and the more thoroughly is the residue
drained of them.

How Brandy is Made
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post #19 of 25
8/2/07 at 5:12pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Quote:
I've never even seen a juniper berry.

What? You've never seen Life of Brian?
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post #20 of 25
8/3/07 at 11:22am

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

This site sells gin "essences" - might be what you're looking for:

http://www.brewhaus.com/Gin_Essences_s/35.htm

The price is right and they don't appear to contain alcohol.
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post #21 of 25
8/6/07 at 11:38am

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyErwin
Maybe you should read up on fractional distillation. The vapor that comes off is not pure EtOH.



How Brandy is Made

I'm not a chemist but I always thought what evaporates isn't related to what's disolved in what, it's because the temperatures at which the different components evaporate are quite close together. So if you evaporate the alcahol off slowly at a lower temperature, less of the less volatile components will go with it. I bet if you try it with any drink, you'll get similar results.

I once attended a talk by John McDougal, formerly of the springbank distillery where he described the distillation process in terms of moving down progressive 'layers' of volatility until you hit the sweet spot with the right fraction of the various alcohols. Whatever else happens to be evaporating at the time has an impact on how the Whisky will taste.
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post #22 of 25
8/6/07 at 12:37pm

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

It's been a long time since I was in a chemistry lab. So, in a sense, I'm relearning as I go along.
Consider this:
Quote:
(2) High-boiling point components Almost all amounts of n-decyl alcohol and ethyl esters of fatty acid were distilled at the beginning of the second distillation. Thereafter their flow rate decreased rapidly. The amount of furfurol was distilled almost constantly during the second distillation. β-Phenyl ethylacohol began to be distilled after about 8hrs and increased after about 14 hrs. During distillation, it was observed that a greater amount of the high-boiling point components except β-phenyl ethly alcohol, was distilled when Australian malted barley was used.

Studies on Flavor Components of Whisky : (XI) Behavior of the Components during the Manufacturing Process : (Part II) Distillation Process

Boiling Points:
Water 100 C
ethyl alcohol 78.3 C
Benzene 80.1 C
n-decyl alcohol 233 C

If distillation were as simple as you propose, the n-decyl-alcohol would never get in to the distillate.

You have to consider azeotropes:
For instance,
95% EtOH + 5% Water 78.15C
74% benzene + 18.5% EtOH + 7.5% water 64.9 C

So, it's a lot more complex that removing pure alcohol from pure water.
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post #23 of 25
8/7/07 at 12:50pm

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyErwin

If distillation were as simple as you propose, the n-decyl-alcohol would never get in to the distillate.

.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to imply that all of a component vanishes as soon as you hit boiling point and none of it leave before. At a certain temperature, a give liquid will evaporate at a certain weight. In statistical thermodynamics you can work it out using the fluids molecular energy distribution. The hotter the liquid the higher the percentage of molecules above the critical momentum and the faster it evaporates. The liquid is constantly replenishing the high portions of the distribution by thermalization. I didn't say this at first because I figured it'd be getting a bit heavy.

The upshot is that the amount of product of your various components is a complicated function of temperature, time, and pressure. The only point that I was trying to make is that I don't know of any mechanism causes one substance to take another along for the ride when it evaporates.
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post #24 of 25
8/7/07 at 3:00pm

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Quote:
The only point that I was trying to make is that I don't know of any mechanism causes one substance to take another along for the ride when it evaporates.
Formation of complexes, perhaps? R·N H2O?
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post #25 of 25
8/8/07 at 5:16am

Re: Fake gin flavoring for non-alch gin & tonics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherDAC
Formation of complexes, perhaps? R·N H2O?

I dunno, maybe. Certainly formation of Complexes is a step beyond solvation, so to speak. In a solvate, the molecules aren't actually physically connected they're kind of evenly distributed. For example, the salt in brine isn't chemically bonded to the water, so merely being soluble isn't sufficient. Does the alcohol form complexes with the botanicals or are they merely dissolved? If it's the former, then you might be onto something, if it's the latter than it's back to the simplest explanation; the botanicals evaporated all on their own with no help.
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