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Which 1080p projector?

post #1 of 30
7/12/07 at 1:55pm
Thread Starter 
Background:

I'm putting together a new HT system in a room I'm having added onto the house. I plan to have a projector, 5.1 surround, HDTV, and XBOX360. System will primarily be used for TV, movies, and games (in that order). The room is 17'6 by 15'8 and will be used for more than a HT. I want small, satellite-type speakers all around mounted in the corners. I'd like a 1080p projector with ~100" screen. Video is more important to me than audio. I've budgetted $3k for projector and about $500 for AVR and $500 for speakers. Another $1k for everything else.

---------------------------------

I can get a Panasonic PTAE1000U or an Epson Powerlite Home Cinema for the same price. Which would you get?

Also, do projectors upscale the video input or will it adjust to what's coming in? Like, if I pipe in 480p will it try to push it up to 1080?

Thanks,
Jason
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post #2 of 30
7/12/07 at 2:03pm

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Greetings

It's also important to know how far back you are sitting from the screen. at 1.5X screen widths back ... 720p and 1080p projected images tend to look the same.

As long as you stick to LCD ... you will have weaker blacks and non uniformity issues in the color. there is also the polarizer failure stuff that will occur over time. Beginning in a noticeable fashion even by 600 hours ... and progressively getting worse over time.

No technology is perfect ... but those are a few of the issues you can look forward to.

Regards
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post #3 of 30
7/12/07 at 2:08pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Thanks for the reply.

Primary seating will be about 13.5' back. I'm sure there will be all kinds of things I'll learn about once I get any projector in there. Just trying to decide where to start. I'd obviously like something that's going to last me a while. I'm not a cutting edge kinda guy. I've had my current Pioneer 5.1 HTIB for 7 years, along with my 27" CRT. Anything is going to be a massive improvement.
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post #4 of 30
7/12/07 at 2:47pm

Re: Which 1080p projector?

good luck....I dont think you can do 1080p and screen for 3K. That being said, I'd do a good 720p anyday before a low end 1080p. Resolution is not near as important as contrast ratio.
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post #5 of 30
7/12/07 at 2:56pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Have you read the reviews for those two projectors or do you have experience with them? projectorreviews.com has reviews of both the Epson Home Pro Cinema 1080 and the Panasonic PTAE1000U. (Sorry, can't post the links yet)

I've already got the price quotes, just interested in which one is best.

Thanks,
Jason
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post #6 of 30
7/12/07 at 3:36pm

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Greetings

The reviews are not looking for the discoloration effect and no review uses a projector over 600 to 1000 hours to determine long lasting negative effects.

All the brand new stuff looks great ... but what will it look like 6 months in ... 12 months in?

Non uniformity is a technology characteristic ... just like rainbows.

You have to pick your poison.

Don't get caught up in the hype to get 1080p ...

The top 4 elements most important to image quality are as follows in order of importance:

1. contrast ratio ... dynamic range.
2. color saturation
3. accurate colors
4. resolution ... detail

Regards
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post #7 of 30
7/12/07 at 3:43pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Thanks for the reply Michael. Do you have any other suggestions? I can't go over $3,000 and I won't something that will last. I also have to get this thing purchased in the next week or so if I want it mounted when the contractor finishes the ceiling.

Thanks,
Jason
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post #8 of 30
7/12/07 at 3:44pm

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Greetings

I should note that at 13.5 feet back ... you are outside the 1.5 zone (for a 100" screen). This means that you are seeing even less detail than a typical 720p image can provide. The 2 million pixels of a 1080p provide you with no more visible detail than a 720p model. You are paying for pixels you cannot see.

At this distance, a 720p unit with superior contrast ratio would produce a superior image to the 1080p unit. If you want to see all the pixels of a 1080p projector, you need to be literally 1x the screen width to see that detail.

Regards
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post #9 of 30
7/12/07 at 3:55pm

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Greetings

Cheap screen solutions ...

Get pro performance ... but on the cheap. Buy the screen material yourself ... and build your own screen.

A Dalite 106" screen selling for $1500 can be constructed for less than $450 typically. Same visual performance.

As for projectors ...

The LCD ones are actually okay as long as you understand that you need to replace the unit in 2 years ... or be prepared to pay for repairs to bring it back to like new performance. More than just a bulb ...

(Mind you ... if you have found that DLP rainbows give you a headache ... then you have no choice but to go the LCD route ...) But if DLP is an okay option ... also consider things like what BenQ has and Optoma and even Mitsubishi in the more budget line.

Regards
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post #10 of 30
7/12/07 at 3:57pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Which 1080p projector?

If the 1080p is pointless given my viewing distance and screen size, should I reduce my screen size? My inputs will be HDTV, upscaled DVDs, and XBOX 360 games. Does that matter?

The screen has to be a rollup, can't be fixed. Just not an option in this room.

Thanks,
Jason
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post #11 of 30
7/12/07 at 4:23pm

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Greetings

Where do you normally want to sit in a movie theater of olde ...? The old days?

row 5 ... middle of the theater ... back of the theater ...

middle of the theater usually = 1.5x screen width at the theater ... so if you went smaller ... it is like moving further back in the theater seats.

A lot of people learn the hard way that they usually go too small to begin with. After a while ... the screen size shrinks on you ... psychologically speaking. Most wish they had gone larger. Get as large as you can handle or that the wife unit will permit. You will get used to it quickly enough.

We are not telling you that you should not buy 1080p ... we just want you to keep your options open. Don't rule things out and don't buy into hype.

normally ... people should spend a bit more on a screen because projectors tend to come and go ... screens stick around a lot longer. Best to have a quality screen.

(everyone gets upgradeitis after a few years ...)

Regards
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post #12 of 30
7/12/07 at 6:52pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Thanks again, but at this point, in all honesty, i'm tired of reading about projectors. I really would like someone to say, "Buy this one. It will give you a good picture and won't drain your bank account." I will be 13.5ft away and I know that 100" is a good size. I've stated the inputs I'll have and what I'd like to spend. Is there no way to take this information and recommend something specific?
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post #13 of 30
7/12/07 at 8:12pm

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Greetings

BenQ 8720
Mits HD1000u
Mits HC3000
Optoma HD72
Optoma HD73

for instance on the DLP side.

Regards
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post #14 of 30
7/13/07 at 10:37am

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV
Greetings

BenQ 8720
Mits HD1000u
Mits HC3000
Optoma HD72
Optoma HD73

for instance on the DLP side.

Regards

So Michael, are you saying that the DLP projectors will last longer/be more reliable than LCD projectors? I haven't heard that before, but I'd be very interested in hearing your experience on this.
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post #15 of 30
7/13/07 at 11:27am

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Greetings

No, not saying that at all.

The wearing down of the polarizor plate in the LCD is just a fact of life. Hardly fatal though. The replacement part costs about $125 and takes about 15 to 20 minutes to replace ... for those so inclined to do it.

So on LCD projectors ... just be aware that there is a second consumable part that has a significant impact on image quality. More than just a bulb.

If you go in knowing this ... then you will get many happy hours of performance from it.

I've seen the extreme case of the polarizor plate wearing out ... on a lcd projector at 4300 hours ... the image was green. no more blue at all in the image.

The same person then changed the plate out and the colors came back. But the fading colors portion is a pain because it starts at as little as 600 hours and if you know what it looks it ... it will annoy the heck out of you. And it gets worse ...

Unitformity issues outside of this plate issue are somethings one almost never sees in normal TV watching ... unless ... you are a big B/W film buff. Then you will see that B/W films have green and pink shades of gray ... rather than neutral shades of gray.

I've been tracking these characteristics in LCD projectors for 6 generations or more ... and it hasn't been over come yet. The problems still persist.

Mind you, if rainbows make you sick to the stomach ... then you may have no choice but to choose the LCD alternative.

Regards
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post #16 of 30
7/13/07 at 7:31pm

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Well, not to hijack a thread, but...

So far, I have opted not to put my HT in my Media room, but rather my unused Master Bedroom. I plan on making a shell inside this room to make it even smaller. So I'm looking at 11'x 9' after shell is framed in. So I need a projector that can throw a 96" image from say 10??? feet. I already scored a 96" Carada Criterion screen from a fellow member with 1.4 gain. I will of course have 100% control over the light (I can add ambient light if needed). My video source will be a HTPC with movies at both 1080P and 720P. Edit: Seating will be around 9 feet.


I had my eye on the same Panasonic as OP because of the 1080p, short throw, and similar budget. But now you are scaring me, this is my first front view projector purchase. I was unsure about DLP and rainbows. Would a Optoma DV10 MovieTime cheapo be good as a demo of DLP before making a larger investment in a more expensive unit? And are there any good short throw DLPs?

I have no problems at all buying a used 720p unit from a reliable source if it means I can get superior internal parts and higher contrast ratio. But most of these people seem to want $4000-5000 for these units. Where I would prefer under $2000 for older technology.

Thanks
David
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post #17 of 30
7/13/07 at 10:04pm

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Greetings

Benq and optoma and Mitsubishi have decently priced dlp units ...

Rainbows are seen by maybe 20% of the people at most ... with it being very bothersome for 4% of the people. The faster the color wheel turns, the less likely you are to see the rainbow effect.

I am one of the 4% that sees the rainbows easily and they give me headaches. Or used to. My Benq 8700 has a 5x wheel I believe and I rarely see the rainbows now. Once every 5 minutes at most.

I see a lot of other things in images that bug me more often in that same 5 minute period.

You have to try it out to know for sure.

Regards
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post #18 of 30
7/18/07 at 9:44am

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Take your time, and read as many reviews as possible. Good luck with your new HT!
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post #19 of 30
7/18/07 at 3:43pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Thanks for the posts. I think I'm going with the InFocus IN76 720p. After the screen and everything this fits my budget better. It looks to be solid.

Thanks.
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post #20 of 30
7/23/07 at 2:36am

Re: Which 1080p projector?

check out the Epson 1080p projector, you may still go over budget though with everything. Dont sell yourself short with trying to buy all at once, piece it all out. Its more fun that way. Good luck though.
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post #21 of 30
7/23/07 at 1:47pm

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Some very good info in this thread. Really didn't know the difference between DLP and LCD. No idea if I can 'see the rainbow' or not. More to consider. Fun.
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post #22 of 30
7/26/07 at 9:18am

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Hi Michael....

Would you mind giving your LCD / LCOS recommendation? DLP rainbows kill me, and I enjoy taking things apart. :-) My "agreed" budget is $3000 for projector only, but I'm still working the wife over to let me spend $6000.

Sorry, I should mention my room is 15x13. Viewing distance will be 11' 6" and I'm leaning towards 80-86" screen size. Source will mostly be DVD with HDMI connection.

Thanks!
John
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post #23 of 30
7/26/07 at 10:18am

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Greetings

If rainbows kill you ... then it is time to die.

No ...

Try the Sony Pearl LCOS ... at around $3500 to $4000 range. While it is still a LCD variant, the non-uniformity issues do not seem to plague that technology nearly as much as the regular LCD units.

I know of no data about polarizer plate failure in LCOS ... (just that I have not seen or read about it.)

I also don't know if it occurs in LCOS like LCD ... so I keep my eyes open whenever I get my hands on such units. Come October ... I will for sure get my hands on a JVC LCOS with about 800 hours on it. If it has degradation ... I'll talk about it ...

If you have to only spend $3000 or less and you can't find said LCOS ... then LCD is your only bet.

EPson ...Panasonic ... Sanyo ... all similar grade LCD 1080p units .. just be prepared for the plate thing after the first year of use ...

86 " screen ... so using the 1.5 rule ... anything more than 9 feet away and the extra 1080p pixels go to waste. Can't see them. A 720p projector will look the same ... from a detail perspective.

What you gain from the 1080p is reduced artifacting from deinterlacing and scaling. Think moire patterns ...

Regards
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post #24 of 30
8/27/07 at 7:05pm

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Sorry Michael...I thought I replied...thank you again!! Coincidentally, you named the exact 2 projectors I was leaning towards - pearl and JVC :-)
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post #25 of 30
8/29/07 at 7:23pm

Re: Which 1080p projector?

In regards to a cheaper screen solution than Da-lite, Draper, or even Carada for a manufactured screen, I would recommend a Tribal Projecter Screen. I bought one on-line for less than $500 total cost. I paid nothing for shipping and it was tax free.

I have 92" Tribal Screen with 1.0 gain matte white screen material. I also have the Mits. HC3000 which is a 720p 16:9 native. I love it. I am like you...I watch TV, Movies and play video games. In that order. I am very happy with my set up.
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post #26 of 30
8/30/07 at 5:42am

Re: Which 1080p projector?

AUMFC... I have a very similar set up to what you're describing. It's an approx 100" screen and an Optoma HD72 projector. At the front end I have a Digital HD Cable Box, an Oppo 981 DVD player that upconverts up to 1080p. I have it set at 720p to match the native resolution of my Optoma projector. I have a Marantz SR4001 Receiver and PSB Speakers and sub. In all I think it cost me about $6,000 - $7,000 to set up but it works really well and was well worth the investment.

I've thinking about upgrading the Optoma HD72 to the HD80 as it is 1080 and will handle the maximum upconvert from the Oppo.

http://www.optoma.ca/Product_detail.asp?product_id=249
http://www.oppodigital.com/dv981hd/dv981hd_index.html
http://us.marantz.com/Products/1867.asp
http://www.psbspeakers.com/product.php?pId=14&sId=3
http://www.psbspeakers.com/product.php?pId=18&sId=3
http://www.psbspeakers.com/product.php?pId=80&sId=12
http://www.psbspeakers.com/product.php?pId=26&sId=5
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post #27 of 30
9/5/07 at 11:25pm

Re: Which 1080p projector?

The story on the LCD is true that you do lose a lot. However, with the advent of the new "inorganic" LCD, it is claimed to not happen anymore. The Panasonic PTAE1000U is supposedly one of those. The newer generation LCD projectors are touted to have these LCDs. You might want to inquire. However, the lumen output of that projector is so low that even with the darkest room environment and high gain, say 1.8, you won't get much over 110".

The Optoma (hd-80/81) has a very long throw distance which keeps it out of most home theaters, but it does have a very good brightness.

AUMC: I would go with the Mits HC5000 unit and add a 120" screen. It's got 1080p with excellent sharpness and wonderful color saturation, not to mention great pricing. Its one of the new projectors with inorganic LCD. It's also one of the new ones that recognizes a 1080p/24 signal and displays it without first converting to 1080p/60 - very film like. This model is old so the price on this unit has gotta go below 3k.

John: if price (> $4,000) is not a problem, go with the JVC RS1 unit. It is better than the Sony unit. But if you are willing to wait, I would first see how the new Sony projector coming in Nov (VPL VW 60) does. The claim is that it will have 35,000:1 contrast ratio with 1080p. Now that's a CRT killer! The blacks will be so deep, you will be able to watch Catwoman with all the detail. That would be like a real theater.
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post #28 of 30
9/6/07 at 8:58am

Re: Which 1080p projector?

http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...under_3k/C157/

Epson is bringing out an updated Home Cinema 1080 model the "UB". Just announced.
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post #29 of 30
9/6/07 at 2:51pm

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Great News! This will bring more competition to the market. I guess we will see many new projectors for the holiday season. Although, the JVC would still be my preference given their film-like picture.
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post #30 of 30
9/9/07 at 9:48pm

Re: Which 1080p projector?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aumfc
I will be 13.5ft away and I know that 100" is a good size.

If you're still reading this thread, I'd re-think your screen size. I sit 13.5' back from my Panny 700 (720p) and my screen is 126". Couldn't imagine it being smaller.
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