Paul Seydor's PAT GARRETT AND BILLY THE KID - Page 2

Re: Paul Seydor's PAT GARRETT AND BILLY THE KID

Gary Tooze of DVD Beaver also finds fault with how Sam Peckinpah's Workprint is treated. Some good screen captures too:

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDRev...ly_the_kid.htm

and links to other dissatisfied reviews.

Re: Paul Seydor's PAT GARRETT AND BILLY THE KID

Here it is:

http://pub25.bravenet.com/forum/2127594253

But I remember a different message board.
Can't seem to find it now.

Re: Paul Seydor's PAT GARRETT AND BILLY THE KID

Yes.
"Knockin' On Heaven's Door" is played loud and clear in the 1973 Theatrical Version.
By most accounts it was also heard in Peckinpah's Workprint / Turner Version until someone mixed it down during the transfer to laserdisc. That was an earlier take of the song, not the final take, nor Dylan's final mix, which can only be heard in the 1973 Theatrical Version.

The prevailing opinion, among professionals and fans alike, is that Paul Seydor overplayed his hand. Seydor put the scene between Garrett and his wife into his 2005 Version, but he didn't even bother to reinstate it into Peckinpah's Workprint / Turner Version from which it was inexplicably cut during the transfer to laser-disc.

Well said.

It know it seems like a mess because Paul Seydor's Version and commentary make the problems sound worse than they really are. Let it be said that Seydor is a talented and astute editor of original material; but here, his subjectivity run amok. His version is expertly edited, it's just not Peckinpah's edit. Last night we watched both versions on DVD, just examining technical things. It's pretty clear that Peckinpah's Workprint / Turner Version needs perhaps 30 seconds of tightening up, at the most. Usually it's a matter of frames between the transitions, and some transitions that are begun but not completed. Usually. And of course the scene with Garrett's wife needs to be reinstated. Then clean it up and repair the sound. Review the above posts for more observations on this point.

Your sentiments are shared by just about everyone.

Turner Classic Movies is showing Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid on August 4, a Tuesday, at 11:15pm (Pacific time, naturally), a day devoted to films starring James Coburn. The running time is listed at 115 minutes which is the length of Paul Seydor's version. Spicey stuff for TCM.

The Encore Westerns channel continues to show the 1973 Theatrical Version from time to time.




Edited to correct the broadcast date.

Edited by Richard--W - 6/30/2009 at 10:48 pm GMT
Edited by Richard--W - 6/30/2009 at 10:51 pm GMT

a new forum for fans of Sam Peckinaph:

http://www.earnedinblood.com

moderated by author and film maker Mike Siegel.
Have a look see and give it your support.

Richard

Quick reminder that Turner Classic Movies is showing the Paul Seydor cut of Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid tonight at 11:15 pm, Pacific Time,

Keep watching Encore Westerns channel for the original 1973 theatrical version, which airs from time to time.

AndrewRublev, you are not alone. 

Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid's was much admired among film makers and film buffs at the time of its theatrical release. When the Z channel broadcast Peckinpah's workprint for the first time its reputation skyrocketed. When the MGM laser disc circulated Peckinpah's workprint for the first time audiences were able to spend more time with the film, and its  special qualities began to be understood. If anything, the DVD release has facilitated a dramatic reappraisal. There is no other western quite like it. Peckinpah invests his characters with motivations that are unique to the western. These are highly original characters for a western and the story is as sophisticated as any A-list drama.  [As an aside, I wish that Peckinpah's next film Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia (1974)   rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article  could receive  a similar reappraisal and rediscovery. It's an epic film noir and his most accomplished and fully realized work, despite the attention-grabbing title].

The recreation of Lincoln and Fort Sumner, New Mexico Territory in 1881 is not inaccurate and shows careful research and tremendous care. I don't think the film has ever been credited with its earthy sensibility for frontier life and conditions. The Kid's escape from the courthouse actually happened in a way not dissimilar to how its depicted here.

Personally, I wish there were less vulgarity in the film. The vulgarity is an obstacle between the audience and the story being told. Some people can't see past the vulgarity. To his credit, Peckinpah actually cleans up Rudolph Wurlitzers' screenplay considerably. It is a neurotic, angry, base script. At times it is an incoherent script that wallows in a misogyny which does not derive from the historical basis of the story. The earlier draft and the later published version were too filthy to film and too filthy to even discuss here. The vulgarity that remains in the film stretches credulity to the breaking point sometimes. Peckinpah also improved the narrative drive and circular structure of the script. He brings the characters into sharper focus than did Wurlitzer's script. In a sense, Peckinpah is co-author, and most  things that impress us today were put there by him.

On another level, I could make a case for the film's historical intelligence on one hand while criticizing its historical offenses on another. For example, the character motivations are reversed.  Biographically speaking, Garrett had just turned 30 and the Kid was probably only 19 years-old when Garrett shot him. It was the Kid who was burned out and tired of fighting the Lincoln County War and took courageous steps to end it, while it was Garrett who looked ahead with optimism and ambition for his future. They had only known each other for a little over a year -- perhaps 16 months -- before Garrett became Sheriff of Lincoln County. But the fact that the film deals with such motivations at all is a virtue. Interestingly, as the film implies, the Kid enjoyed the support and good will of the people, while Garrett, after he was elected, did not, and his reputation among the Mexican population suffered after he killed the Kid. He would not be re-elected. Further, Fort Sumner was a privately owned ranch where many travelers stopped and some engaged in business arrangements with the Maxwell family. Prostitution was not one of them. The Mexican women were observant Catholics and did not hop beds as casually as depicted in the bunkhouse scene. All of which is irrelevant to any appreciation and enjoyment of the film.

By the way, for the second time this year, Turner Classic Movies is airing the Seydor version tonight at 11pm Pacific time, followed by a rare broadcast of MGM's 1930 Billy the Kid with Johnny Mack Brown. Check it out. It's an early talkie that gains immediacy by its very primitiveness. The opening title is preceded by an endorsement from the Governor of New Mexico, which got him into no end of trouble with the old-timer residents who objected to the film's inaccuracies. In 1930, many people who fought in the Lincoln County War and who knew Garrett and the Kid were still alive in New Mexico.  These old timers began writing angry letters to newspaper editors to correct the mistakes, giving interviews, speaking to historical societies, and publishing their reminiscences. In fact the film provoked a storm of controversy more interesting than the film itself.  MGM / WHV have been remiss if not downright oblivious in failing to recognize the value of and the interest in the original Billy the Kid. It merits a supplemented DVD release with a commentary.

Likewise, Peckinpah's workprint merits a proper restoration and a documentary that puts all the deleted scenes, alternate footage, and conflicting edits into a methodical order. The present state of affairs is an artistic crime.

Edited by Richard--W - 9/24/09 at 5:33am