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AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights" - Page 2

post #31 of 57
6/24/07 at 9:51am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Maybe, I'm an oddity, but I have to think that there are other people like myself who have similar thought pattern in which they dislike certain film(s), but who also realize and then accepts a film(s) greatness as a representation of the artform called film.
I agree. I recognize the filmmaking skills of people like Stanley Kubrick and Robert Altman, though neither of them made more than 2 or 3 movies I particularly like. There is also a breed of film I like to refer to as being "better than it is." Basically my way of saying the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I don't expect those movie to be widely recognized. I also think a lot of people around here have their opinions clouded by unimportant issues. For example, I have always and continue to believe The Deer Hunter is a great film, but I think too often it is slammed not on its own merits but because of what Michael Cimino went on to do. None of that makes one bit of difference on this particular movie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanOhara
Its presence on the American Film Institute's original list of the 100 greatest American films was a total disgrace.
I was thinking the same thing, though I would not call it a "disgrace", but The Third Man is hardly the only one. The same applies to both Lean movies as well as possibly Ben-Hur, just for starters. Just imagine the uproar if Lawrence of Arabia, decidedly NOT an American film, was left off the list.
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post #32 of 57
6/24/07 at 8:26pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanOhara
No it shouldn't. Its presence on the American Film Institute's original list of the 100 greatest American films was a total disgrace. Sure, it technically fit the criteria for an "American" film since Selznik fronted some money for it, but that's obeying the letter and not the spirit -- it's no more an American film than Kagemusha, which was also financed by Americans.

Two of the stars are American (Welles and Cotten) and one of the producers is an American (Selznick). In contrast, Lawrence of Arabia just had American producer (Sam Speigel) and A Clockwork Orange only had an American director (Kubrick). The Third Man's story deals with an American traveling to Vienna to meet another American. LoA does have Arthur Kennedy's supporting character. I can't think of anything American about A Clockwork Orange.
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post #33 of 57
6/24/07 at 10:38pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Speaking of David Lean and LOA, did anyone notice that Dr. Zhivago is now off the list? I believe that it was somewhere in the 20's on the last list.

That's quite a drop.

Seriously, I really hope the AFI doesn't pull this crap and revisit the 25 male/female legends list... or whatever they called it. I found the list, not to mention the criteria they used to determine exactly who qualified as a "legend," dubious in the first place. I guess it's all good for publicity and ratings. Ranking films is one thing, but classic actors?

I'll pass.
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post #34 of 57
6/25/07 at 1:13am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
Speaking of David Lean and LOA, did anyone notice that Dr. Zhivago is now off the list? I believe that it was somewhere in the 20's on the last list.

That's quite a drop.

Seriously, I really hope the AFI doesn't pull this crap and revisit the 25 male/female legends list... or whatever they called it. I found the list, not to mention the criteria they used to determine exactly who qualified as a "legend," dubious in the first place. I guess it's all good for publicity and ratings. Ranking films is one thing, but classic actors?

I'll pass.

they need to take Ava Gardner and Lillian Gish off thatlist and put Oliva de Havilland and Doris Day on there.
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post #35 of 57
6/25/07 at 2:18am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Why should they take Lillian Gish off?

She's literally like the 1st lady of cinema, much like Helen Hayes was the 1st lady of theatre.

She had a longer film career (1912-1987) than probably any other woman in cinema. I believed Bette Davis said that when they were doing "The Whales of August" That Director Lindsay Anderson had complimented Lillian on her closeups in which Davis chimed something like "she should give good closeups, hell, she was around when it was invented." Heck, her career lasted longer than most people lived and she was an awesome actress who could perform in any genre. Lillian should stay.

Lillian rant over.

I agree with you about Doris & Olivia, but this is the very reason why the AFI shouldn't have made such a list. I personally scratched my head and wondered how Orson Welles got on it as an actor, but somehow Paul Newman, Montgomery Clift, Charles Laughton, Errol Flynn & Charleton Heston all managed to miss the boat.
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post #36 of 57
6/25/07 at 5:17am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
Why should they take Lillian Gish off?

She's literally like the 1st lady of cinema, much like Helen Hayes was the 1st lady of theatre.

She had a longer film career (1912-1987) than probably any other woman in cinema. I believed Bette Davis said that when they were doing "The Whales of August" That Director Lindsay Anderson had complimented Lillian on her closeups in which Davis chimed something like "she should give good closeups, hell, she was around when it was invented." Heck, her career lasted longer than most people lived and she was an awesome actress who could perform in any genre. Lillian should stay.

Lillian rant over.

I agree with you about Doris & Olivia, but this is the very reason why the AFI shouldn't have made such a list. I personally scratched my head and wondered how Orson Welles got on it as an actor, but somehow Paul Newman, Montgomery Clift, Charles Laughton, Errol Flynn & Charleton Heston all managed to miss the boat.
Actually, what you're ranting about now is exactly why this list was made. AFI probably wants even more debate and high spirited discussion.




Crawdaddy
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post #37 of 57
6/25/07 at 8:25am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieW
Why should they take Lillian Gish off?

She's literally like the 1st lady of cinema, much like Helen Hayes was the 1st lady of theatre.

She had a longer film career (1912-1987) than probably any other woman in cinema. I believed Bette Davis said that when they were doing "The Whales of August" That Director Lindsay Anderson had complimented Lillian on her closeups in which Davis chimed something like "she should give good closeups, hell, she was around when it was invented." Heck, her career lasted longer than most people lived and she was an awesome actress who could perform in any genre. Lillian should stay.

Lillian rant over.

I agree with you about Doris & Olivia, but this is the very reason why the AFI shouldn't have made such a list. I personally scratched my head and wondered how Orson Welles got on it as an actor, but somehow Paul Newman, Montgomery Clift, Charles Laughton, Errol Flynn & Charleton Heston all managed to miss the boat.

Well I actually agree with you, but it just seemed plain wrong to leave Olivia off and one of the biggest box office champs of all time, Doris. I highly think that if the list did was redone, Bette Davis would get the #1 spot.

It's mighty strange how nowadays Betty Grable is negleced when she was the the top female B.O star for 11 years straight.
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post #38 of 57
6/25/07 at 9:05am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey
Well I actually agree with you, but it just seemed plain wrong to leave Olivia off and one of the biggest box office champs of all time, Doris. I highly think that if the list did was redone, Bette Davis would get the #1 spot.

It's mighty strange how nowadays Betty Grable is negleced when she was the the top female B.O star for 11 years straight.
Tell me which Doris Day movie is among the best 100 movies ever made? Same with Grable? Also, this best 100 movie list has nothing to do with box office.




Crawdaddy
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post #39 of 57
6/25/07 at 9:36am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Tell me which Doris Day movie is among the best 100 movies ever made? Same with Grable? Also, this best 100 movie list has nothing to do with box office.




Crawdaddy

Actually, I wasn't talking about the 100 greatest movies list. I was referring to the 50 greatest legends list.
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post #40 of 57
6/25/07 at 2:02pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Also, this best 100 movie list has nothing to do with box office.
Not exactly true. As indicated on the ballot (which can be downloaded), one of the criteria the AFI asked voters to consider in making their selection was:

Popularity Over Time
Including success at the box office, television and cable airings, and DVD/VHS sales and rentals.
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post #41 of 57
6/25/07 at 2:23pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth_C
Not exactly true. As indicated on the ballot (which can be downloaded), one of the criteria the AFI asked voters to consider in making their selection was:

Popularity Over Time
Including success at the box office, television and cable airings, and DVD/VHS sales and rentals.
So that explains Titanic being on the list.





Crawdaddy
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post #42 of 57
6/25/07 at 2:26pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Well, I'm not going to bother repeating myself:

Why I hate those AFI lists...
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post #43 of 57
6/25/07 at 4:55pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul McElligott
Well, I'm not going to bother repeating myself:

Why I hate those AFI lists...
fixed
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post #44 of 57
6/29/07 at 5:59pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Now it gets even weirder. Check out this link:

http://www.2livefools.com/foolsblog/...n-bootleggers/
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post #45 of 57
6/29/07 at 6:35pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey
ugh at Citizen Kane. It's so booooooring and overrated.

I think this attitude might be the fact that Kane spurred on so many innovations that in looking back it seems like things people have seen so many times before. It needs to be looked at in that it did so many things that hadnt been done at the time. But then again maybe they just hate Kane .
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post #46 of 57
6/29/07 at 8:20pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Swindoll
I think this attitude might be the fact that Kane spurred on so many innovations that in looking back it seems like things people have seen so many times before. It needs to be looked at in that it did so many things that hadnt been done at the time. But then again maybe they just hate Kane .
Was it really that innovative? If you are refering to the wide angle lens with deep focus style, then you can find earlier films that exploit that method. For example Dodsworth (1936). If you mean over lapping dialogue, then you can look at His Girl Friday which was released over a year earlier.

I think the legacy of Kane is that it is flamboyant film making, where style comes to the surface. In some ways it seems to be an experiment in what you can do with the Camera. This seems to be innovative for a Hollywood film at the time. But having said that, look at early Technicolor films, surely they use colour in ways that are highly expressive and decorative, and not necessary just meant to drive the plot.

I'm not sure what Kane's legacy is, other than it is a great film. But we shouldn't forget that the Classical Hollywood Cinema is full of great films, it is a mass art and should be appreciated as such.
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post #47 of 57
6/29/07 at 8:30pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter of Mars
Now it gets even weirder. Check out this link:

http://www.2livefools.com/foolsblog/...n-bootleggers/

John: I don't get what that dude is talking about.

Quote:
The African Queen is NOT legally available on DVD anywhere in the world…

The African Queen is, indeed, available on DVD. For example, just a few months ago I featured THIS VERSION of the film in my Weekly RoundUp over in Coupons & Bargains. This seems to be a legitimate HK import that can be purchased at amazon.com (see link), Best Buy and Circuit City and other e-tailers.
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post #48 of 57
6/29/07 at 8:39pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Was it really that innovative? If you are refering to the wide angle lens with deep focus style, then you can find earlier films that exploit that method.


Sure, Gregg Toland didn't invent deep-focus for Kane, but he played with the way it distorts space in ways earlier films hadn't. For example, the scene where Kane signs away his newspaper empire -- it's set in what first appears to be a moderately sized board room, with the characters sitting in the foreground and what seem to be normal sized windows in the background. But then Kane gets up and walks back, and back, and back, until you realize that the room his huge, and the window sill, instead of being at waist height, is actually eight feet off the ground. Find a comparable shot in Dodsworth.
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post #49 of 57
6/30/07 at 1:40am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon
John: I don't get what that dude is talking about.
The article is pointing out that The African Queen is not out on DVD and that the AFI site includes a picture of a bootleg disc. Even the disc you linked to appears to be of a dubious origin judging by the reviews at Amazon.
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post #50 of 57
6/30/07 at 4:45am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

The whole AFI, is a JOKE !!!!!!!!!
Titanic on the list and Forrest Gump........
Give me a BREAK !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #51 of 57
6/30/07 at 6:00am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanP
The whole AFI, is a JOKE !!!!!!!!!
Titanic on the list and Forrest Gump........
Give me a BREAK !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agreed. I loved these films as a child, but now that I'm older and I watched them again, they're not that good. I just think the AFI list is generated to drive dvd sales. Sophie's Choice is another particularly bad movie with a great performance in it.
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post #52 of 57
6/30/07 at 1:52pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

"TITANIC" is the "EARTHQUAKE" and "TOWERING INFERNO" of the 90's.
TOTAL SPECIAL EFFECTS, thin on plot and storyline...............
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post #53 of 57
6/30/07 at 2:01pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanP
"TITANIC" is the "EARTHQUAKE" and "TOWERING INFERNO" of the 90's.
TOTAL SPECIAL EFFECTS, thin on plot and storyline...............
Titanic is Citizen Kane compared to Earthquake and The Towering Inferno. I'm not saying Titanic is a brilliant movie but since Cameron is one of the best action directors in history, it's leaps and bounds above the 1970's disaster movies.

EDIT: And was it really neccesary to have two posts saying that you don't like Titanic?
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post #54 of 57
6/30/07 at 7:06pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter of Mars
The article is pointing out that The African Queen is not out on DVD and that the AFI site includes a picture of a bootleg disc. Even the disc you linked to appears to be of a dubious origin judging by the reviews at Amazon.

But that was my original point. That "Castaways" company seems legit. The product may not be good (admittedly, reviews are mixed leaning towards bad) but they have a number of releases of hard-to-find films for sale on amazon.com and a number of other sites.

Here is Rome Adventure.

The Student Prince.

The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

King Richard & the Crusaders.
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post #55 of 57
6/30/07 at 8:51pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Simon's arguments remind me of something my father (a former jazz musician) was saying recently about a conversation with a relatively young jazz musician. He mentioned how innovative Charlie Parker was and the "kid" scoffed and said "oh, he did all that clichéd stuff", of course, not realizing it seems like nothing now because everyone has imitated it for decades.

I admit, Kane is not the most exciting movie, but the first time I saw it was for a film class back in photography school in Rochester NY, as well as being an actual film presentation of a very nice quality print. That would have been about 1985. I recall being numb as I walked out of the screening room. If my first viewing of it hadn't been that way and from the perspective of filmmaking, I might be at a bit of a loss why it is so highly regarded. I definitely would NOT try to claim it is no achievement though. That does nothing but exhibit remarkable ignorance. Even though it is not in my personal Top 20, I have no argument with it being a perennial #1.
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post #56 of 57
7/1/07 at 2:44am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

I was just saying you can go further back and find examples of that style. But I agree with Sean that Welles' approach is very exaggerated so that space is distorted, rather than just revealed as in Wyler. Why some people say that Kane is an example of cinematic realism I have no idea!

There is no doubt it is a great cinematic acheivement, I especially like the use of sound. There you can hear Welles applying a lot of his skills from his radio days.
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post #57 of 57
7/1/07 at 12:15pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Most great works of art, whether it be paintings, sculpture, motion pictures, music, or theatre, take the grammar of the art form and shape it into a masterpiece. Orson Welles used the techniques that had been developed for the last 40-some years and made Citizen Kane. It's an important and masterpiece of a film because it used the entire bag of tricks at the same time to a stunning degree to tell a story. Shakespeare didn't really invent anything incredibly new for Hamlet, nor did Ralph Vaughan Wiliams do the same for Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis. They simply used principles to the most effective way.

There's other films that are "textbook of cinema" examples like The Passion of Joan of Arc and Napoleon, but it's not as if we can't have more than one "greatest" movie. That's why ranked lists can be silly since there's no reason to say Citizen Kane is better than Casablanca or The Godfather. Would you tell your children which one you loved the most?
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