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AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

post #1 of 57
6/22/07 at 12:47pm
Thread Starter 
Regarding the new AFI list of the 100 best films, to me it was notable that "The African Queen" fell from 17 to 65 and "Wuthering Heights" (1939) from 73 to off the list.

I was wondering if their general unavailability on DVD in some way contributed to this. Perhaps some voters took this into account, or, because of their unavailability had not seem them for a while and somehow degraded their greatness accordingly.

I'd venture there are perhaps other reasons also, notably the whimsy of taste, but I feel these two films were perhaps hobbled because of their current situation.
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post #2 of 57
6/22/07 at 12:58pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

now that's what I call fascinating indeed
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post #3 of 57
6/22/07 at 1:10pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Your theory has merit.
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post #4 of 57
6/22/07 at 1:21pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

I certainly can't say that it isn't possible but I don't think each vote cast for a movie means that someone sat down and rewatched that movie again. They looked at the list and voted based off of their knowledge of the nominated movies.

In other words, if a voter planned on voting for Citizen Kane, they probably didn't watch it again. They just knew what they wanted to vote for.
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post #5 of 57
6/22/07 at 2:08pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Ted, I agree with you. Some of the films that rose substantially on the list had their increases attributed to new DVDs of those titles.
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post #6 of 57
6/22/07 at 2:32pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

The whole AFI, has no credibility to me.
It is a SHEER JOKE.
I mean what criteria are they using and whom is voting ??
Ridiculous, is what AFI, is.
OK, it is ten years let's all vote what the greatest films are.
"GONE WITH THE WIND" should have been in the top 3.
"THE WIZARD OF OZ" also, should have been in the top 5.
"THE GODFATHER" number 2, ridiculous !!!!
"VERTIGO" should have been in the tope 3.
"Casablanca" is so over rated.
Where were "GIANT" and "Ben Hur" ??
I missed the beginning, or did they not make it ??
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post #7 of 57
6/22/07 at 2:44pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

True, Ted- look at how silent films like Sunrise and The General have risen because of new availability on DVD. To paraphrase what was said in Field of Dreams- If you will make a DVD, people will buy. Sadly, in the case of these two venerable unreleased classics, it's a case of 'out of sight, out of mind".
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post #8 of 57
6/22/07 at 2:47pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Ellis
'out of sight, out of mind".

Hey, I was about to post these exact words ... so I'll reiterate

Out of sight, out of mind.
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post #9 of 57
6/22/07 at 3:18pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

AlanP, if the AFI is a complete joke, your post equally matches the description.

It's a Poll. Who in their right mind expects to agree with it? I'm not much for making these lists myself, but I still enjoy seeing what shows up. During the show, I decided to renew the Top 20 I did a few years back for ymdb and only 4 of my 20 are even in the AFI 100. So what? Does that make any of us wrong? In fact, i consider at least one of the AFI 100 (Forrest Gump) to be one of the worst movies ever made.

Regarding the original post, it's ironic that I was recently having a conversation about how some movies seem to be revered for little reason. My example was that Casablanca is no great shakes, and nowhere near as good as The African Queen. Personally, I don't think Wuthering Heights has any place on the list. So shoot me.

BTW Alan, Ben-Hur was in there around the 90s.
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post #10 of 57
6/22/07 at 4:59pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Another thing that certainly makes the AFI list somewhat "un-rankable" is how it is tallied. Voters are asked to pick 100 of the 400 nominated movies (in no particular order). They are also asked for their Top 5 for tie-breaker purposes only. THe movies with the most selections within the "100" the voter picks are at the top. So technically, when a voter picks 100 movies, movie 100 carries the same weight as movie #1. Other than the tiebreakers, there is no way to vary your selection.
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post #11 of 57
6/22/07 at 5:21pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

AlanP, you made some good points, until you wrote:
Quote:
"Casablanca" is so over rated.
Which goes to show, that as JohnRice said, these things are purely subjective. CASABLANCA is perfect Hollywood entertainment, IMO. Every time I watch it, I am in awe of how well everything clicks in that movie. IMHO, Giant does not belong on the list at all, so there.

I didn't watch the show. Those "movie list" shows are always bogus.
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post #12 of 57
6/22/07 at 5:42pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

I think availability has some to do with it, but also consider how Snow White and E.T. have been out of print for 4-5 years. Didn't the DVD for Wuthering Heights go out of print around 2001-2002?


Also, Giant is an overrated overlong good film and didn't belong on the list. Casablanca is basically the perfect Hollywood movie. The Third Man is the worst casuality since it should have been on the top 25. The AFI should be embarassed that they included Titanic (a good film, but really only notable for the box office and production values) while dropping that. They really need to revise the list immediately.
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post #13 of 57
6/22/07 at 6:07pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

I watched the show this time as I was curious to see how the past decade had affected the list. 23 titles were replaced by others I believe - quite an impressive number.

Of course, it all so purely subjective - I don't think there are 25 films in there that I would chose as the finest Hollywood films ever made. A lot of highly acclaimed films bore me to death (Citizen Kane for one) and so many lesser-known ones strike me as immeasurably better. For instance, I have always MUCH preferred Heaven Knows, Mr. Allison to The African Queen. My favorite Hitchcock film is Rebecca. It's just a matter of opinion, like everything else

But I do have a problem with the fact that the 400 nominees did not even include Rio Bravo!!!???

Was thrilled that Singin' in the Rain reached #5 though

I do think that DVD availability made a difference in some of the results. Certainly last year's DVD of The Searchers had something to do with its going from #96 in 1998 to #12 this time around!!! I would not be surprised if the unavailability of Wuthering Heights and The African Queen accounted for their lesser showing or complete disappearance to a certain extent too.

And as classic film lover, I lament the fact that there were not enough pre-1960 films in there. Yet so many people my age I talked to thought there were too many! Go figure!

It certainly works to create discussions, that's for sure.
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post #14 of 57
6/22/07 at 11:35pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick McCart

Also, Giant is an overrated overlong good film and didn't belong on the list. Casablanca is basically the perfect Hollywood movie. The Third Man is the worst casuality since it should have been on the top 25. The AFI should be embarassed that they included Titanic (a good film, but really only notable for the box office and production values) while dropping that. They really need to revise the list immediately.

IMO, Giant isn't even a good film. I would be majorly peeved if anyone considered it in the top 100. African Queen deserves a decent Region 1 DVD release, and I can't think for the life of me why it hasn't received one.

As for Titanic, don't get me started on how much I hate that one. If you want a good Titanic story, go for A Night To Remember.
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post #15 of 57
6/22/07 at 11:54pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Clearly the lack of a DVD effected the standings on these two movies. Does anyone know what the hold up is?
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post #16 of 57
6/23/07 at 2:02am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

What exactly is the criteria that helped to decide this list? Evaluating films in this way is completely subjective.

There are hundreds of films that could replace all of those that are on the list. Yet we just don't know about them because other films get discussed so much instead.
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post #17 of 57
6/23/07 at 4:49am
Thread Starter 

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

I tend to lose track of what films are in or out of print once they are in my greedy little hands. As for "Snow", Disney re-releases its movies every 7 or so years to a big burst of media hoopla so they keep their interest high. I was unaware "E.T" had gone out of print but I remember it being released a few years ago to a big hoopla also. (That's when I bought it. ) And it will most likely be released again in a promotional blitz.

I bought my first DVD player in 2001, so "Wuthering Heights" has been OOP during my entire tenure. I'd venture there are a great many people out there who if they saw it in their local store would put it on their shelves and its reputation would be restored a bit. I'm sure that's true for "The African Queen".

The major exception is "Sunrise" which is not easily available. (I got my copy during the Fox promotion.) But its (well-deserved) rep as a great silent film probably helped it. And it probably snared a few votes from those who wanted to abandon "Birth Of A Nation".

I'm not debating how good or bad the list is. It's a list whose primary purpose is to get people talking about great films. I don't doubt that practically anyone would add or subtract some films from the list, or move others substantially up or down. I'm not even saying "WH" or "TAQ" deserve to be on the list. I just think they have a substantial disadvantage by being generally not available.

PS. Ok, I'm unhappy that "The Third Man" and "All Quiet On The Western Front" dropped off, happy that "Sunrise" and "Who's Afraid Of Virginia Woolf?" dropped in, annoyed that "Titanic" dropped in, happy that "Amadeus" and "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner?" dropped off, annoyed "The Deer Hunter" (actually rose!!!) and "Forest Gump" remained on.

PPS. "Casablanca" and "The Godfather" are great films. Live with it
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post #18 of 57
6/23/07 at 5:50am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

ugh at Citizen Kane. It's so booooooring and overrated.
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post #19 of 57
6/23/07 at 7:58am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Howson
Evaluating films in this way is completely subjective.
What other way is there? You make that sound like a negative. The fact is, evaluating films is subjective, always.

Oh yeah, regarding Wuthering Heights. I was wondering what the fuss about availability was. I completely forgot my copy is R2. Regarding The Deer Hunter. I think it's a great film. In my opinion, far too many people judge it based on the director's future work, which is something I see happen a lot.
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post #20 of 57
6/23/07 at 10:17am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey
ugh at Citizen Kane. It's so booooooring and overrated.
to you, not to me.

the list should be just a list and not be a 100 to 1.
it should not have any number attached to a movie.

i think titanic is not a great movie.

it is a fascinating thing to see at least after the thing starts to sink.

other then that, eh, seen it all before.
titanic is not one of the 100 best movies, to me.
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post #21 of 57
6/23/07 at 10:20am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
the list should be just a list and not be a 100 to 1.
it should not have any number attached to a movie.
That's what I always say too. You should just take the list and alphabetize it and call it '100 Great Movies You Should Watch But There's Still Other Great Ones Out There'.
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post #22 of 57
6/23/07 at 10:36am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRice
BTW Alan, Ben-Hur was in there around the 90s.

While off-topic Ben-Hur was #100. I don't know if the lack of a DVD for The African Queen contributed to it's fall but it deserves a restoration and release. SOON!
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post #23 of 57
6/23/07 at 11:46am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
to you, not to me.

the list should be just a list and not be a 100 to 1.
it should not have any number attached to a movie.

i think titanic is not a great movie.

it is a fascinating thing to see at least after the thing starts to sink.

other then that, eh, seen it all before.
titanic is not one of the 100 best movies, to me.

well i didn't say it was boring and overrated to everyone. if that was the case, it wouldn't have been on the list. use your noggin!!

i thought titanic was superb growing up, but now that i'm older, the film is pretty bad scriptwise.
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post #24 of 57
6/23/07 at 1:18pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

that why i said "to you"

no need to be rude about it.
"use your noggin"
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post #25 of 57
6/23/07 at 9:04pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRice
What other way is there? You make that sound like a negative. The fact is, evaluating films is subjective, always.

I disagree. I think one of the best approaches to studying films is to look at how the form and style of films have changed throughout film history. The changes are usually based on the influence of industry, economics, technologies and a range of other factors. Studying films in that way can be objective, because conclusions are made that best fit available evidence.

Defining a cannon of so called 'classic films' actually restricts the ability to understand more about film. This is because film is a mass art that needs to be examined as such. A lot of film criticism and academic film studies is based around interpreting a few so called 'classic films'. This process is ultimately subjective, and priviledges a few films instead of seeking to understand how cinema works as a mass medium.

The argument breaking out in this thread shows how futile it is trying to rank films, because a person who just doesn't like a particular film will never conceed that it is actually a great film.

Attempting such a ranking is completely flawed, because a) there is no universal criteria to determine the quality of a film and b) the people that end up making the judgements often have no idea about the historical context in which the film was made. So how can they say that it is a particularly good example (or counter example) of that industry or film making movement? There is no structure or reason to it, they could think of the first 100 films that came to mind and produce a similar looking list.
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post #26 of 57
6/23/07 at 9:26pm

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

I would absolutely agree with the original premise that the absence of AQ and WH on DVD has certainly made it difficult for most film fans to be familiar with those films in recent years.

I haven't seen African Queen in several years. I went to order Wuthering Heights a few years ago when I learned it was OOP.

I count myself among those who would have a hard time including those two films on any subjective film list as I've had no access to either of them for a long time.
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post #27 of 57
6/24/07 at 3:43am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Howson
I disagree. I think one of the best approaches to studying films is to look at how the form and style of films have changed throughout film history. The changes are usually based on the influence of industry, economics, technologies and a range of other factors. Studying films in that way can be objective, because conclusions are made that best fit available evidence.

Defining a cannon of so called 'classic films' actually restricts the ability to understand more about film. This is because film is a mass art that needs to be examined as such. A lot of film criticism and academic film studies is based around interpreting a few so called 'classic films'. This process is ultimately subjective, and priviledges a few films instead of seeking to understand how cinema works as a mass medium.

The argument breaking out in this thread shows how futile it is trying to rank films, because a person who just doesn't like a particular film will never conceed that it is actually a great film.

Attempting such a ranking is completely flawed, because a) there is no universal criteria to determine the quality of a film and b) the people that end up making the judgements often have no idea about the historical context in which the film was made. So how can they say that it is a particularly good example (or counter example) of that industry or film making movement? There is no structure or reason to it, they could think of the first 100 films that came to mind and produce a similar looking list.
The part of your argument that I bolded is not true, at least as it pertains to me. Maybe, I'm an oddity, but I have to think that there are other people like myself who have similar thought pattern in which they dislike certain film(s), but who also realize and then accepts a film(s) greatness as a representation of the artform called film.

Such is the case with Tootsie, Nashville and Sophie's Choice in this year's list. In the prior list in which some titles fell off, they're The Jazz Singer, Fargo and The Birth of a Nation.

Again, maybe, I'm on the branch by myself, but I would think that there are some people that voted in this poll that gave their consideration of this list in a larger scope of what needs to be thought of, beyond their personal film opinion and have devise their listing in a similar fashion as I have.


Crawdaddy
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post #28 of 57
6/24/07 at 4:52am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
The part of your argument that I bolded is not true, at least as it pertains to me. Maybe, I'm an oddity, but I have to think that there are other people like myself who have similar thought pattern in which they dislike certain film(s), but who also realize and then accepts a film(s) greatness as a representation of the artform called film.

Such is the case with Tootsie, Nashville and Sophie's Choice in this year's list. In the prior list in which some titles fell off, they're The Jazz Singer, Fargo and The Birth of a Nation.

Again, maybe, I'm on the branch by myself, but I would think that there are some people that voted in this poll that gave their consideration of this list in a larger scope of what needs to be thought of, beyond their personal film opinion and have devise their listing in a similar fashion as I have.


Crawdaddy

Can you explain your criteria for disliking a film, while appreciating that it is a good representation of film art? There is no clear benchmark or criteria is my point, so that makes list building an extremly difficult exercise. I talk to people in English departments who think that Merchant Ivory films are the best example of high brow cinema, yet I'm of the opinion that even a second rate film noir is more representative of film art than any M/I film.

But I see your point...
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post #29 of 57
6/24/07 at 5:29am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
The Third Man is the worst casuality since it should have been on the top 25.

No it shouldn't. Its presence on the American Film Institute's original list of the 100 greatest American films was a total disgrace. Sure, it technically fit the criteria for an "American" film since Selznik fronted some money for it, but that's obeying the letter and not the spirit -- it's no more an American film than Kagemusha, which was also financed by Americans.
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post #30 of 57
6/24/07 at 9:44am

Re: AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights"

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanOhara
No it shouldn't. Its presence on the American Film Institute's original list of the 100 greatest American films was a total disgrace. Sure, it technically fit the criteria for an "American" film since Selznik fronted some money for it, but that's obeying the letter and not the spirit -- it's no more an American film than Kagemusha, which was also financed by Americans.

Blimey, if we took all the American financed films out of the BFI Top 100, we'd hardly have a list at all...
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