"Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD - Page 2

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

Not having been around when these films were released theatrically I can only comment on how I've seen them in previous incarnations and to my eyes they haven't looked better. I do recall noticing the lack of film grain in the dissolves that Douglas mentioned above but I didn't think too much of it at the time.

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

I suppose its possible, but with out having seen an original print from the era I don't know how anyone could make that judgment.

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

The title sequence of Rio Bravo is VERY grainy which is normal for an optical of this time period. All of the optical in this film, ie fades and dissolves exhibit this level of grain. The scene you are talking about starting at 36m 50s looks exactly right to me for a film of this vintage. Again I don't see anything that would suggest any kind of noise reduction or "filtering". The film to me appears to be perfectly rendered in this respect. Again as to color I can't speak to what this film looked like in 1959.

I don't have The Cowboys yet so I can't talk about that film on HD.

Doug

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

Time for Mr. Harris to chime in... :-)

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

Hope he has an HD copy, as that would lend a credible slant to the various opinions.

I was only 8 (or 9 if the movie came out after August 1959).

IMHO:

From the comparison pictures of "Rio Bravo" from this Link (scroll down to the comparisons) The Warner Region 1-NTSC on top and the latest Warner (2-disc SE) DVD on the bottom of each sample;
In every example, I would choose the bottom picture as to what I remember was the classic "look-of-the-western" that I would see week after week in the late 50's.

They were dark and they were colorful. Every top picture of (The Warner's first region 1 DVD), looks like brightness was added to the entire picture, changing the atmosphere of the scenes, by revealing more background detail. (This seems logical to me, as people were becoming accustomed to the look of a picture that was "televised" on TV.) The color is toned down and the tinting adjusted, offsetting the darker look with a side affect of giving the skin an unnatural pink glow to it.

IMHO, people have gotten so used to looking at the "technical video look" of the revisions made from the VHS tapes and then the first region 1 DVD, that it's very difficult to get accustomed back to the "original film look", where I think technology is headed for a truer rendition that can be captured from an original film source. Doubt is compounded by chemical changes of the film's age, technical manufacturing structure and improper storage. "The Searchers"?

Paul

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

Paul,

You're absolutely right. The bottom ones are not just better in several aspects, but they certainly look a lot more like the images I saw theatrical, colour wise.


Cees

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

You guys must be seeing something I don't, because the top pictures in the comparison look darker to me than the bottom ones. The shadows in the bottom pictures look "washed out" and the lighting looks harsher to me. The bottom picture in the very last group does look much better than the top one. The skin tones look more natural in the bottom picture. Dean Martin looks sunburned in the top pic.

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

Cees have you gotten Rio Bravo on HD DVD or Blu-ray? I'd be be interested in your impressions.

Doug

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

I watched Rio Bravo this morning and it was a terrific time. Coming so soon after seeing The Searchers, I was afraid Rio Bravo would pale considerably in comparison, but it was a different sort of beast altogether. While John Ford's vision seemed as wide as Monument Valley, Howard Hawks could bring characters alive. You gotta love John Wayne leaning over and kissing Walter Brennan quickly on the top of the head in Rio Bravo as a pure character moment that Hawks easily brought to many of his movies. But I still cringed a bit during the singing section with Dean Martin and Ricky Nelson...

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

HD DVD. But still in the post ("trains and boats and planes...").


Cees



Edit: Package just arrived! Let you know soon!
C.

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

OK, here's my impression.

I only wanted to watch a few scenes to get a quick but proper impression - and ended up seeing the whole film again. (BTW, I didn't remember how young Angie Dickinson looked back then.)

I will not comment on the grain structure (yet): getting caught by the movie again, I simply forgot to judge it thoroughly, especially in the darker scenes. Let me just say: nothing ugly or distracting anyway.

(My new big screen isn't ready yet, so I had to watch it on my Samsung 46" 1920x1080 LCD TV screen.)

The colours were the most debated question here. Well, I can say, they are almost exactly as I seem to remember about 47 years ago (for what it's worth).
Especially the total colour impression of the night scenes (street, pubs, inside jail) are precisely like I saw them in the theater (I'm not going to repeat "as I remember" ad nauseam, it's implied). Textures of wood, sand, clothes, the copper spittoons ( ), all looked amazingly detailed and beautiful, perhaps even better visible now than back then.

There are several outdoor scenes in full sun, the "shootout" being the most important one, that made me wonder. They may be ever so slightly more yellow/brownish than I remember, and then again: it may also be exactly like it was. Please understand: even if it's really there, it's very minor and never leads to anything even remotely looking abnormal.

So even in these cases when I hesitate, I think it's at least very close to the way they looked back then. Not an overall "different" effect (or with a digitally enhanced gamma). Blacks are very black, and it never looks "too bright" as well.

Overall judgement: this version is the one closest to my original cinema experience (twice) by far. This HD DVD looks so good, it's not a "show-off" disc for the format in the absolute sense, but it shows what the format is worth.

My wife, who only came in to bring a cup of coffee when the title roll just started, sat down and watched it to the end. All she knew was our VHS version, but she is truly amazed that an "old" movie can look so good and fresh again on HD.

I'm very happy to own this version. Again: the colours seem extremely faithful to the original, and where (if) there may be a difference, it's never obvious, let alone distracting.


Cees

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

I'm so sorry that you HAD to watch it on a 46" 1920x1080 LCD! Man are we all getting spoiled or what?

It's good to see that someone who actually saw this movie in the theater thinks its an accurate representation. It seemed right to me but I never saw it theatrically.

Doug

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

Rio Bravo: I really don't know what the color is supposed to be so I won't get into that other than.... what's the deal with blue hair?

My disappointment is with the softness. Every film has it's own story but this is so far removed from The Searchers as to be quite confusing. I find it hard to believe that there isn't detail in there that's getting lost somewhere along the way.

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

The Searchers is a large format VistaVision film, Rio Bravo is a matted 35mm film. Rio Bravo is never going to look as sharp or fine grained as The Searchers. Having said that I think the level of detail in Rio Bravo is quite remarkable.

I also noticed the blue high lights. I'm not sure if they were using blue gels on the back lights, or if this is some artifact of a fading yellow layer of the original negative.

Doug

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

I purchased both of these but have only had the pleasure of seeing the Cowboys which I thoroughly enjoyed.

The picture quality of the Cowboys was tremendous and appropriate. In fact, it may have been too good as it was quite obvious in some of the shots that JW was wearing a rug during this film! Never noticed that before.

Looking forward to seeing Rio Grande when I get some time. I took some time and watched the excellent extras on both disks though. Very good supplements.

I went to Old Tuscon as a kid, wish I remembered more of it and also wish I had a better appreciation of its historical significance when I was there. However, I was only 9 so the fact the JW and Dean Martin etc had walked those streets was lost on me. I suspect though that fact was not lost on my Father who is a HUGE fan of the genre. May actually explain how we ended up there ,as it was off the beaten track.

Maybe I will wait until he visits next month to give Rio Grande a spin. We can have a some beers and cowboy steaks and make an evening of it!

Dave

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

Unfortunately most of the Old Tucson buildings seen in Rio Bravo burned down in a fire about 10 or 12 years ago. The streets were rebuilt, but they don't look the same as they did in that film. The barn where John Wayne and Ricky Nelson hold up to make the exchange at the end of the film still exists and look pretty much the same today. As far as I know thats the only building used in the film that is still standing.

Doug

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

Just watched Rio Bravo last night (an HD DVD rental). It's been about 10 days or so since I watched The Searchers (I got the HD DVD for Christmas) and I have to say, about both of them, that they looked great. The Searchers (for all the technical reasons outlined above and elsewhere) is more visually impressive but each of them is FAR, FAR better than I expected (and, I trust, the same is true for most people--especially those who don't hang around here ).

I've read with great interest the various RAH comments on classic films in HDM and I've also read through some of the debates over these releases vis a vis prior editions and/or theatrical runs. I must say I'm a bit surprised at the level of histrionics I've sometimes read ("a travesty", "completely ruined", etc.) in various places on the web (in particular with The Searchers). Certainly people should expect and demand great care for HDM releases of such classics, but there seems to be a disconnect between expectations and reality. These films are sometimes 50 or more years old, are not necessarily in pristine (rarely, it would seem) condition and yet it seems some expect "like new" images. Not to mention the incredible variety of display types, sizes and quality these releases are being judged upon.

Certainly people can express disappointment if it's not as they remember but (despite the fact I've not seen either film at all before now, never mind in other formats) I think we need to manage our expectations a bit as well as remember that ALL forms of artistic representation degrade and/or change over time (just think of the debates over the repair/restoration of Leonardo's The Last Supper). Sometimes I think obsession over the last few technical details simply blunts the enjoyment of the film. I for one am glad such films look as good as they do in my modest set up and while I want the studios to make every reasonable effort to present excellent versions, excessive nitpicking is a very good way to motivate them to say "it don't matter if we don't work on this too hard, the fanatics will NEVER like what we do anyway".

Just my 2 cents.

I watched Rio Bravo tonight, the issue is not one of grain reduction but low bitrate artifacts on darkly lit scenes, just a handful of scenes really stand out to me but its no surprise when bitrate drops below 13mbp/s at some points, thats low for a film with grain in it and i believe its the root cause of some of the artifacts i saw, incidentally between the running time of 37m and 39m the barn scene where Wayne goes after the bad guy and him and Dean Martin talking after that, noticeable artifacts and its not print damage its caused by too low a bitrate, indeed a handful of night shot scenes suffer this issue and its down to Warner using lower bitrates than they really should, they used 28GB of a 50GB blu ray but then the movie is 23GB and i guess its a port of the HD DVD, pity they didn't re-encode to take advantage of the disc space and it would have eradicated the artifacts.

 

Mostly an excellent transfer and i saw no grain reduction issues ( but check my post below ) just some artifacts caused by the low bitrate and issues surrounding this, now i view on a Panasonic AE4000 at 106inches, i mention this because its possible LCD technology makes artifacts stand out more, they are there though, even if some are not seeing them. ( Yah my displays calibrated )

 

P.S. Not a bitrate junkie, i measured the bitrate info on the computer as i am preparing a review with screencaps for my own site, but i feel you can only go so low before issues occur and really with VC-1 they should stick to 18mbp/s or higher, If they have a BD-50 to play with, certainly going lower can cause issues, i have seen it before on other Warner ( low bitrate - Pre 2009 ) discs.

Edited by FoxyMulder - 7/27/11 at 10:04am

Are you sure this is right? As far as I am aware the final cut negative is the final cut negative, dissolves and all.

At any rate I thought Rio Bravo looked pretty good although it's been a while since I watched it. The Cowboys, on the other hand has some pretty substantial grain reduction going on. Yes I know it's an anamorphic picture but it looks unnaturally smooth and video-like.

The original negatives were either cut single roll with fades & dissolves cut in as dupes, or A&B with an overlap at the dissolves so they could be made while printing. I don't know, but I would have thought single roll was the norm, so you would get a drop in quality on dissolves.

Incidentally, on my normal viewing i noted that i believed low bitrate artifacts were an issue and not grain reduction, it looked like the grain was there, well after further study on the computer i can see that grain reduction has been applied in at least a significant number of scenes but surprisingly not all as some scenes are left untouched, sometimes the studio when degraining will do it on an individual scene basis and you can usually grab the first frame with all the grain intact before the grain reduction kicks in for every frame that follows, that is what i am seeing with this release on some scenes after careful examination, i suppose its a question of whether people believe enough grain has been left in, going by this thread then many do believe enough has been left in. There are still artifacts on a handful of scenes due to low bitrates and now i believe some grain reduction was applied also due to using lower bitrates.

 

I give three examples below. I'm sure you can spot the full grain and degrained easily enough without me telling you. Now of course we do not watch films on computers and like i said above, i felt the transfer looked good apart from a few artifacts, i still think its good but the original poster had a point, i now believe he is right. Of course he thought only the night scenes were degrained, i can see day scenes have been degrained, its just a question of asking "is it acceptable" and "does it go too far" i believe it still leaves enough grain in to give a good image but i'd rather they left all the grain intact and upped that bitrate to cope with extra film grain and get rid of the nasty artifacts.

 

Like i say above i checked the very first frame on a new scene ( not a scene transition ) and then checked all the frames that followed, you can see clearly the full grain before the tools kick in on that very first frame. Consider this a science project and not absolute proof but i'm convinced at least some grain reduction has been applied to this release and its to be expected when they drop the bitrate frequently down to very low levels, you just don't see this happening on Sony releases which have constant 30mbp/s bitrates and higher. So yeah bitrates do play a part in all this.

 

3 examples, i can give more if there are non-believers out there. Maybe reviewers should give people who take screencaps a break since microscope examination can sometimes reveal things such as this, perhaps the studio's would rather we not know and of course under normal viewing conditions the experience of the film was acceptable to me, its just clear we are not getting the full on film ( grain and all ) as made and i think thats what the original poster objects to and i agree with his opinion.

 

You have to click open each frame and just click back and forth and you will see what is grain and then reduction, i assure you that all the frames that follow for each scene show degraining in effect.

 

http://www.darkrealmfox.com/rio_grain.png

 

http://www.darkrealmfox.com/rio_degrain.png

 

http://www.darkrealmfox.com/rio_grain_2.png

 

http://www.darkrealmfox.com/rio_degrain_2.png

 

http://www.darkrealmfox.com/rio_grain_3.png

 

http://www.darkrealmfox.com/rio_degrain_3.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by FoxyMulder - 7/27/11 at 10:05am