The Matrix Trilogy HD DVD Reviews... - Page 4

Re: The Matrix Trilogy HD DVD Reviews...

Great comments Mark!

I'm off to read your review in full...

dave

p.s. I love that so many folks are really enjoying the sound of lossless audio on HD DVD/BD and really "getting it". Those of us who enjoyed laserdisc PCM knew just what we lost when we went to the 10:1 data-reduction Dolby on DVD, and it's thrilling now to get it all back again along with 1080p HD pictures...

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Well,I bought the Matrix HD-DVD movie only set and found it to be stunning!All of those 3 looked and sounded fantastic.Most notable the 2 sequels.I put in POTC 1 and 2 on the Hd -dvd player to see what the upconvert looked like and WOW!" Spiderman 2.1","So Close"(asian),even "Dracula 3" all looked great.Sony/Columbia and Disney/Buena Vista have always had some of the best transfers on Dvd I've seen.That being said,I don't think disc bit rates are playing any type of significant role in this right now.I would put the upconverts up against current Bluray releases of the POTC just to see if anyone else out there has noticed how well the sd versions look given there Bluray counter parts.I'm sure Bluray has an edge over them,But,I'm guessing it isn't by much. I've ordered "Underworld:Evolution" today on Hd-Dvd.I'm going to compare the sd Sony release to the Hd-Dvd release.I'm not expecting much though,because the sd release also looked amazing upconverted.

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Yep. It's like welcome to 1995 all over again for us laserdisc folks. The comments about hating DD now are just hilarious because those are the same people who said "There's no way your Laserdisc PCM sounds better than my DVD blah blah blah".

Oh sure

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"Back to laserdisc" was almost the phrase I wrote in my last Blu-ray review regarding lossless sound. It's exactly the notion that went through my mind. Now that I'm hearing lossless again, I don't know how I lived without it for so long. Also making me realize that many of the "upgrades" I tried to do to my audio system to "open up" the sound were really just trying to put back in that air and nuance that the lossless audio preserves.



The improvement over the SD DVDs of the POTC discs is at least as good as the improvement over the SD DVDs of the Matrix by the new 1080p Matrix HD DVD set. How big a difference would you suggest for that one?

Not only are the BD discs of POTC *reference* which easily puts them above *any* DVD up-convert (even on the excellent Toshiba scaler, which I truely love and regard as the best upconverter for DVD), but the original POTC DVD was HORRIBLE and riddled with muddy/noisey/MPEGGY blacks and edge-halos everywhere. Having reviewed Buena Vista DVDs for HTF for several years previously, I can state that their live-action DVDs were actually well below-industry standards concerning picture quality.

Several reviewers have already stated that even with the better-DVD of the second film, there's no contest between it and the new 1080p copy.

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You are absolutely correct. Watching Matrix or POC SD disks on my Tosh XA2, which is a very fine upconverting player in it's own right, does not compare in any way to the BD POC disks or the HD DVD Matrix disk.

Even the much maligned BD version of 'The Fifth Element' has detail the upconverted SD Superbit disk can not show. At it's worst, the HD formats still outperform there counterpart upconverted SD. At it's best, an the case of POC and Matrix, some of the finest examples of HD releases to date, the difference hits you in the face.

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How can anyone believe that a 480p picture with added interpolated lines could come anywhere close to looking like a high def transfer with actual increased picture data due to the increase in resolution? I sure wish I could check out some upconverted DVDs. I would like to confirm with my own eyes that they are nowhere near true HD.

Wouldn't the upconverting just make the picture look "softer" and less video-like? There is no way the picture could look as detailed as a high def transfer. AFAIC upconverted DVDs of the Matrix and POTC films wouldn't even come close to matching the detail and vividness of their HD counterparts.

After watching a Blu-ray movie a co-worker of mine remarked that picture was better but not enough to warrant the extra money. All I could think was, "you haven't watched enough of them". I would expect these discs to look even better on his new Sony set than they do on my old Toshiba RP CRT set, since his set doesn't suffer from high frequency roll off like mine does.

Keira Knightley looks pretty damn hot in HD and so would would Carrie-Ann Moss. Can't check out Carrie-Ann though.

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Some kind of irony in there somewhere.

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Hey Guys,I'm sorry.I didn't mean to get anyone up over this.I just got My Hd-Dvd player.I'm still in an excited stage.Perhaps I do need to just watch more material before posting My opinions.I don't want any of You thinking I was against Bluray.I actually like what I've seen.Here's what I'm getting at,the Matrix does look superior to It's Sd version,so,POTC more than likely does to!What got Me on this opinion to begin with was the other night I was watching Smallville season 5 that I purchased on HD to replace My Sd version.Just to see how amazingly different the HD would look compared to Sd,I popped it in.Well,I was disapointed to say the least.While,It did look better,it was a slight difference,not a "Smack You In The Face"difference.That got Me thinking,if movies and shows are filmed using HD cameras,HD film,HD mastering,transfers and so on how can more current material look that much better?Where there is an arguement for the improvement with older material,is there really that much for newer given all this innovation in filming over the past few years?I play My movies on A Samsung 42" plasma 720p/1080i display.I don't have 1080p yet...Yet.That might be why I have this opinion.Does 1080p blow the doors off 1080i?If so,there you go,and I rest My point.But that still wouldn't change what I've seen on My display with the differences.My display has been calibrated using Digital Video Essentials also.Not that this point means that much just that it is calibrated.

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Troy,

The resulting quality of a HD release is always dependent of the quality of the original content. However, make no mistake: older (even B&W) movies may sometimes have detoriated film stock, but in principle the resolution and colour (or gray-) depth of the old media were even better than current HD offers!

So "old" movies, if the material is still in good shape, can look stunning on HD too. Recent examples are Casablanca and The Searchers, and (already) many other films.

I honestly don't understand why your Smallville V HD didn't look so much better than the SD version. Perhaps the original HD material was already transferred to SD in a very good form, or the HD version simply isn't that much better.
I can assure you that (even with the remarkable upconversion some HD-players do) the HD versions I have of several films that I also own on SD, the improvement is stunning in all cases.

About your 1080i versus 1080p question: no, in principle 1080 = 1080, it doesn't matter in what order the horizontal lines are written into your plasma's image memory. Sometimes TVs do it the wrong way (either converting 1080i -> 1080p or 1080p -> 1080i), in which case it depends which "error" your particular machine happens to have (slightly older "HD-Ready" TVs often had problems with true 1080p), but your Samsung can be expected to handle it correctly.

So, the problem you're having with that Smallville version could be specific for that title (note that the extras may not be true HD, I don't know much about that title), but certainly not typical for "all" HD television and certainly not for movies, even older ones.

And no, we didn't think you were "against" Blu-ray. Most of us are interested in movies in the first place and simply hope they are presented in the best form possible for our home theater systems, using the best format(s) available!

I'm glad the Matrix Trilogy looked stunning on your system too. I'm still waiting for mine to arrive (overseas).


Cees

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I feel upconverted DVDs can look really good (assuming they have quality transfers) and some can come close to poor HD but a half decent HD transfer is easily superior to upconverted DVD and then a top HD transfer kills any DVD.

As for the POTC 1 dvd, I agree with David that it was poor with all the EE and other issues. I am still waiting for my bluray version of the movie to ship but no doubt it destroys the DVD. Hell it'd destroy it even if it had no added detail but was without EE.

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Woohoo, Circuit City is honoring my $19.99 order! Thanks again for the tip, glad I jumped on it in time.

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Earlier Today I had a talk with a friend of mine who is a bluray fanatic.I told Him about the post I made,He got a hugh chuckle out of it.He finds My excitement over these new formats great,but,says I should be careful making profound and inaccurate statements as I did.He also pointed out that had I made this post where He frequents AVSforums They would have ripped Me a new ass! Cees,David,Edwin,Thomas and Rob,I Thank You All for the feedback and being respectful whereas I should have had a little more restraint making such a bold statement.Tonight My friend is going to bring his Bluray player over to show Me just how inaccurate My claim was.He also wants to check out the Matrix films in HD.Here's to hoping in the future great upconversion doesn't effect My mental state again.The Smallville thing did bum Me out a little.Hope season 6 makes up for it.

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Not a problem at all, Troy. I hope your friend brings over one of the Pirates films in blu-ray to show just how sweet both formats can be. With Matrix on hd dvd, and Pirates on BD, you will be watching just about the best of both formats, and should enjoy them both.

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And there's absolutely nothing wrong with a certain amount of preference for one of the two formats. A preference which may even shift in time ... and shift again, if the circumstances should change.

We're consumers. We buy what we like/need/can afford/want to spend.


Cees

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Should have my copy this afternoon! This will make the 5th, 6th, and 7th new release titles I've watched this week. :insert exhausted smiley:

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I agree with you, Cees. While I own both formats, my preference stills lies with HD DVD and I do not see that changing anytime soon. But we can still enjoy what comes out from both camps.

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Exactly!


Cees

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While I will be buying mostly Blu-ray I will also be enjoying both formats as well.

I will also be adding the Matrix HD-DVD to my collection!

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While I haven't had time to watch the entire trilogy yet, I must say that, after cruising through a few key scenes for each film, I'm very impressed! I'll definitely be adding yet another title to the demo heap this week.

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Is any one have problems loading any of the HD DVD set of the Matrix on their XA2 player? I'm getting the error code of 4086 4203 when I try to play the Matrix Reloaded HD DVD.

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Are you saying you have not seen the POTC Blu-ray releases, but based on how good you consider the upconverted SD DVDs to look, you are guessing the difference between SD and Blu-ray is not much?

If that is the case, then guess again.

This is a thread for The Matrix, so I'll phrase this way...

The difference between the SD DVD of The Matrix and the new HD DVD of the Matrix is about the same as the difference between the SD and HD version of POTC. Possibly a bigger difference on the POTC discs. Make no mistake, Both The Matrix Trilogy and both Pirates of the Caribbean BDs are reference standards for their respective formats.

Also, the comments earlier in this thread suggesting The Matrix might look better with a higher bit rate is just typical Blu-ray bias talking. David Boulet, and others, rarely miss an opportunity to point out HD DVD has less capacity and greater bit rate constraints. The term "FUD" now gets tossed around quite a bit, often used incorrectly. However, Mr. Boulet's statement from earlier in this thread...


...is indeed a textbook example of FUD. "FUD", Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt, is used primarily by marketing hacks to cast doubt on a competitor's product when no factual evidence can be presented, usually because it doesn't exist. These incessant comparisons between The Matrix and POTC are silly and useless. Forgetting that these are different codecs, on different formats, transferred and encoded at different places by different people on different machines, they are fundamentally different films shot in fundamentally different ways. Attempting to compare one to the other as a means to prove one codec or format superior is utterly and completely senseless.

Insinuating that The Matrix could have looked better with a higher bit rate without pointing out specific compression related artifacts is irresponsible and brings nothing to the discussion. Bit starvation is not a terribly difficult thing to see with even moderate experience and knowing what to look for. No one, not a single reviewer that I have seen quoted (most of whom are really just amateur enthusiasts like most of us here) has claimed to see compression artifacts in any of the HD DVD encodes of the Matrix movies. Not one. Even suggesting the possibility that these could look better when there is nothing to see that is a problem is nothing more than a wild assumption based on personal bias.

I have an idea, how about we look at each release and judge based on the merits of that disc and move on.

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This is just a silly arguement. Of course there would be an improvement with a higher bitrate, but this is not the question that needs discussing. The question to ask is "How much better?". HD-DVD people tend to say there would be negligable improvement while the Blu-Ray crowd says there could be substantial gains. I personally feel there could be quality gains at this time, but as the codecs mature throwing more bits at the image will lead to diminishing returns. You have to remember that both AVC and VC-1 are still works in progress. I'm sure that in a year VC-1 could deliver a higher quality presentation at the same bitrate, just as movies from last year most likely could see improvement if they were reencoded today. All you have to do is look at the early years of DVD and realize that we probably have lots of room to grow on the quality side, unless someone is going to make the presumptuous claim that Pirates/Matrix have already shown us the best quality we will see this generation of media.

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I have both an HDA2 and a PS3, running to a Sony KDS60A2000.

As expected both the Matrix HD DVD set and POTC BD discs are outstanding examples of the respective formats. I have SD versions of these and am quite familiar with them. The improvement over SD is more pronounced in the case of the POTC movies primarily because the SD versions of these were not nearly as good as the SD versions of the Matrix films.

I would not be foolish enough to say the Matrix HD was better than POTC HD or vice versa for all the obvious reasons already stated. To my eyes the Matrix sequels are ever so slightly better looking than the original Matrix, but this was also the case with the SD versions and I think is perhaps more to do with the cinematography than the transfer.

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Of course? You have that kind of certainty? Tell me, how long have you been designing compression algorithms, and how many HD video transfers have you encoded?


Presumptuous, is it? What is more presumptuous, listening to the people that actually encode these discs that tell us that both the HD DVD and Blu-ray formats are capable of delivering video content using the latest codecs that is visually indistinguishable from the source master on even the best consumer equipment, or assuming the professionals working with digital video haven't learned anything in the ten years since DVD was released?

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Man, am I sorry I Made that statement about Bluray POTC.

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Why? The arguments about the merits of increased bit-rate have been going on for some time now. Regarding upconversion, there are plenty of people who have or have had the same opinion as you regarding upconverted DVD image quality. You just happened to post into a thread frequented by people who have been watching quite a bit of HD material. Most of them have been able to compare upconverted DVDs to their HD counterparts which has allowed them to come to the conclusion that HD discs have more detail. There is certainly no reason to apologize for posting an opinion. It would have been someone else if it hadn't been you. You just have to expect that others with different experiences are going to respond.

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Also the difference between and upconverted DVD and HD gets more dramatic the larger the screen gets.

Doug

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How about Ben Waggoner from Microsoft talking about how much better the current VC-1 "PEP" encoder is right now then last year? According to him they are still improving the encoder as we speak and will continue to do so for the forseeable future. He doesn't think that thier VC-1 implementation has achieved it's limit yet. Maybe you should email him so they can stop working on it. Why work on it any further if they've acheived "visually indistinguishable from the source master". Even Microsoft hasn't broken out there "Mission Accompished" banner yet, even when they discuss the high quality of thier codec.


There is a difference between FUD and merely overstating the facts. The fact is that more bits would look closer to the master during difficult scenes where neither format has the peak bitrates to achieve it anyway. The only arguement is the degree of improvement. If adding bits allows you to see 2 individual human hairs in a small area of a scene where originally you could only see one, is that an improvement worth debating? How about a couple extra tiny pieces of shrapnel during a high motion explosion? And yet tiny differences like this are the reason that many people spend big bucks on home theater equipement.

The only FUD is claiming "transparency to the master". Does anyone seriously believe that either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is going to consistently be able to achieve the same level of quality of a several hundred mb/s master over the entire running length of a feature film? The limited peak bitrates for both formats are going to prevent achieving "transparency to the master" during complex scenes.