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A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

post #1 of 41
Thread Starter 
I'm torn about Paramount's new SD DVD of To Catch a Thief.

Far higher in quality in comparison to the initial release, and with beautiful color and densities, the film, which was produced on Eastman 5248 and in VistaVision, is seemingly devoid of grain, and looks rather unlike film.

This is a problem for me and for others who follow the original grain theory. The many viewers who hate grain will love it, and with
everything else going for it, there's a great deal to love here.

As an overall home video experience the new To Catch a Thief should fit the bill of anyone who has the common sense to wish to view this delightful mini-masterpiece. The track seems to be based upon a stereo music element, but in my current (hotel based) system, it remains a bit uncertain.

Recommended.

RAH

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post #2 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

The lack of grain issue is definitely a problem with me. Also, I'm not going to buy this SD DVD because I hope Paramount releases it on HD/BRD.




Crawdaddy
post #3 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

I'm really curious as to how the stereo track was created.
Usually, paramount takes the mono mag which has separate mono dialog, music and effects, takes out the mono music and replaces it with the stereo music tracks.
When I worked at Pioneer laserdisc, we wanted to do this, but paramoutn only had a composite mono optical track for the film and NO clean music tracks at all .
post #4 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

Mr Harris, is it possible this is a new transfer from the V-V O-neg, which in combination with some digital magic is how they've managed to erase all the (presumably minimal as it's V-V) grain?

Or have they just cleaned up the existing transfer or done a new transfer from the same 4 perf ip?

As for the sound it could be one of Chace's (or one of their competitor's) attempt's at stereo-ization from mono (which never sounds genuine to me.)

Regards

M
post #5 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

I have done a quick A/V comparison on my own set-up and the new transfer blows the old DVD away. On the old DVD Cary Grants striped shirt was a shimmering nightmare, however on the new disc it is much better.
post #6 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

I'm looking forward to picking this up! I've had the Paramount laserdisc which is dark and lacking in all areas! The first DVD was a massive improvement, so this new disc is a surprise to hear how good it is, in spite of the grain issue.
post #7 of 41
Thread Starter 

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

A bit of information for what might be considered "full disclosure."

Productions photographed on 5248, whether standard 35mm 4 perf or VVLA 8 perf had precisely the same grain structure. They were photographed on the same stock.

The differences came from a number of areas.

The Vista productions used roughly twice the image area, and whether printed down to 35mm or straight across to 8 perf, had an appearance of being less grainy.

This was based upon two points. Projecting an actual Vista print, which was quite rare, meant that the image would only be enlarged by approximately 50% -- larger film element -- same screen size -- more resolved image.

When it came to dye transfer printing, the Vista OCN would be replicated as a reduction image to printing matrices, which in turn would be sent through the dye bath and imbibed to the blank.

Because of the optics, dyes, mordant, etc. via the matrix stock, which had it's own grain structure, the resultant image had a smoother, "less grainy," more velvety look. A well-produced and projected Vista dye transfer print could take on the look of being very sharp, and far less grainy than the standard counterparts. Sharpness was partially an illusion, helped by the contrast of the process.

Creating a video element from a large format source, in this case most likely separation masters, should have produced an image with approximately 50% of the normal grain -- fine, but still a part of the image, as it became lost in the duping process.

RAH
post #8 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

So if I understand you correctly, RAH, this new transfer is completely grainless, a la Lowry Digital Imaging restorations? I've seen the screencaps on DVD Beaver and the colour looks great, so I will probably pick this up, but it's a shame that none of the "sparkle" of the original film grain is retained.
post #9 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

Thank you for your thorough reply Mr Harris

M
post #10 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
A bit of information for what might be considered "full disclosure."

Productions photographed on 5248, whether standard 35mm 4 perf or VVLA 8 perf had precisely the same grain structure. They were photographed on the same stock.

The differences came from a number of areas.

The Vista productions used roughly twice the image area, and whether printed down to 35mm or straight across to 8 perf, had an appearance of being less grainy.

This was based upon two points. Projecting an actual Vista print, which was quite rare, meant that the image would only be enlarged by approximately 50% -- larger film element -- same screen size -- more resolved image.

When it came to dye transfer printing, the Vista OCN would be replicated as a reduction image to printing matrices, which in turn would be sent through the dye bath and imbibed to the blank.

Because of the optics, dyes, mordant, etc. via the matrix stock, which had it's own grain structure, the resultant image had a smoother, "less grainy," more velvety look. A well-produced and projected Vista dye transfer print could take on the look of being very sharp, and far less grainy than the standard counterparts. Sharpness was partially an illusion, helped by the contrast of the process.

Creating a video element from a large format source, in this case most likely separation masters, should have produced an image with approximately 50% of the normal grain -- fine, but still a part of the image, as it became lost in the duping process.

RAH

In other words, To Catch A Thief has been given The Linoleum Treatment.
post #11 of 41
Thread Starter 

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

I have no specific information as to how the clean-up was handled or by whom. I can only report what I see on my monitor, which is a quality product with low grain.

Whether this is positive or negative depends totally on which side of the fence one sits.

RAH
post #12 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

About the sound, does the credit music sound "wobbly," is that what you're hearing?

It sounds wobbly to me.

The picture far surpasses the original DVD, and I don't know what the movie looked like, so I have no complaints.

post #13 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Also, I'm not going to buy this SD DVD because I hope Paramount releases it on HD/BRD.

Crawdaddy

Same here. Here's hoping...
post #14 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
I have no specific information as to how the clean-up was handled or by whom. I can only report what I see on my monitor, which is a quality product with low grain.

Whether this is positive or negative depends totally on which side of the fence one sits.

RAH

Does this sometimes come down to taste? Two different video with the same film may end up producing an transfer with more or less grain, based on their preference?

Or, does this have something to do with what managers expect of a modern video transfer? i.e., they don't realise that preserving the 'film look' should be the number one aim of a video transfer?
post #15 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

I picked up the new TO CATCH A THIEF. I watched some of it, and it did seem like an improvement. Then I synched the old DVD with this one and did an A/B comparison and... WOW! It is SO different! Framing, especially during the first few reels, was SO different, revealing more on all sides. Other portions are cropped more on the top and reveal more at the bottom, but the framing in every instance (save for one) is FAR superior IMHO. Colors are more natural where they were oversaturated and somewhat blurry before. Whites that bloom and lack any kind of shadow detail in the old release are now are shades of yellow or off-white and are full of fine detail! The night scenes have heavy greeen tinting that is missing from the previous transfer, but I assume there must be some reason the tinting is there now. I'm going to make some screen capture comparisons myself and post them later today. I'm surprised a sticker touting, "New improved digital transfer!" isn't affixed to the packaging.
post #16 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

Here are frames from the 2002 and 2007 DVD releases of TO CATCH A THIEF. None have been retouched, and they were grabbed using VLC on a Mac. VLC doesn't let me still-step through, so a few of the captures (if not all) are a few frames off.

2002 DVD
THIEF_1a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_1b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_2a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_2b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_3a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_3b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_4a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_4b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_5a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_5b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_6a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_6b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_7a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_7b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_8a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_8b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_9a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_9b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_10a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_10b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_11a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_11b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_12a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_12b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_13a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_13b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_14a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_14b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_15a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_15b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_16a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_16b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_17a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_17b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_18a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_18b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_19a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_19b.jpg



2002 DVD
THIEF_20a.jpg
2007 DVD
THIEF_20b.jpg




I find the green tinting interesting, as I don't remember it ever being present on the previous video releases. The variations in framing are also quite interesting, as is the fact that the 2007 DVD is 1.78:1 and the 2002 DVD is matted to 1.85:1.
post #17 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

Thanks for posting the screen grabs. What a difference in color! Of course these are stills and not in motion, but the images do look much smoother and process shots look much better. The old release really looks like video in comparison!

There must be some reason for the green. Perhaps it's a Hitchcock preference. But I don't think that is a common trait of his films.

You didn't get a grab of the iconic Grace Kelley kiss sequence?
post #18 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

The framing differences really are striking!

And, of course, contrast seems to have been modified quite a bit.
post #19 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

I wasn't going to pick this up until I saw how dramatic the screengrabs are. I've never been happy with the video quality of this one. I'd like more details on why the two transfers are so dramatically different, especially the green tint.
post #20 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

All the shots look way better now but man the green dark scenes are strange. What happened?
post #21 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
The lack of grain issue is definitely a problem with me. Also, I'm not going to buy this SD DVD because I hope Paramount releases it on HD/BRD. Crawdaddy

But the previous DVD had FAR too much grain, to a distracting extent - no film should ever look like that. The grain on the new version has not been totally smoothed out. It still looks like film.
post #22 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Caps
I'm really curious as to how the stereo track was created.
Usually, paramount takes the mono mag which has separate mono dialog, music and effects, takes out the mono music and replaces it with the stereo music tracks.
When I worked at Pioneer laserdisc, we wanted to do this, but paramoutn only had a composite mono optical track for the film and NO clean music tracks at all .

Listening carefully on headphones, it sounds to me as if the music is only in true stereo during the opening credits. After that, it has a mono spread alongside the dialogue and effects.
post #23 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

I haven't seen anyone mention it but for the completist, they didn't port the Photo Gallery from the first disc over to the new disc.
post #24 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

I listened to the commentary yesterday, and it was quite enjoyable.
post #25 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

Yes, the audio commentary was a surprise. It's a delightful bonus and Bogdanovitch knows Hitchcock.

I think the disc looks great! But I am curious what RAH or others would recommend as a disc that renders proper film grain. Thanks!
post #26 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

I just had a chance to compare the two releases. I agree w/ Robert; overall, the new release is much nicer. The contrast is better and the colors are more realistic. However, I also agree that the lack of grain makes it look not-quite like a real film. At first, I thought removing the grain also removed some detail, but I think that was a psychological effect of the more balanced contrast. It's a case of the lesser of two evils, and I'll settle for the new one!

Doug
post #27 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

It looks to me that the new transfer is from a much higher generation element. Compared to the last release where fine details were blurred (check out the trees in some of the screen captures) with some halos and high contrast, the new transfer reveals so much more detail and a greater black scale range. I am very curious as to how this new transfer was created and from what kind of elements. Has this film finally REALLY been restored? I am SO pleased with this new DVD. I never thought it would look more like a normal movie, you know? The framing is SO much better in all but a few shots, and I hope the green tinting for the night scenes was according to how the film was originally timed and released.
post #28 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

The new PAL special edition in the UK is even better than the new R1 special edition!

http://www.daveyp.com/cgi-bin/compare.pl?compare=50d

(scroll to the bottom)
post #29 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

Um, I don't see a comparison with the new 2007 US DVD on that site - it just compares it to previous versions exclusive of the new US edition.

Funny thing is the reviewer at DVDAuthority.com stated about the new US DVD "looks exactly identical to the previous DVD offering," and that he "compared the two DVD's and the only difference between this new 'Special Collector's Edition' and the older disc (which is five years old now) is the commentary track on this disc."

!!!! I e-mailed the site with a link to this thread, and he just replied: "Opinions vary. They looked the same to me."

I guess opinions DO vary, but stating that it IS the same is clearly false.
post #30 of 41

Re: A few words about...™ To Catch a Thief

They don't have any R1 grabs for a direct compare, but looking at the other caps (http://www.hitchcockwiki.com/hitchco...Image:5007.gif), the PAL transfer does look pretty good except for the lack of grain, but we're talking in comparison with the R1, which obviously shares the same fate.

Ultimately, I 'd take R1 any day for the lack of PAL speedup, but the screengrabs there look pretty impressive.

What's with the obscurity on Cary Grant's face - is that jpg compression or what (in the grab posted by Patrick)? You can see it especially on his nose and chin. I noticed it on some other images as well. Might have to take back my positive response if thats how it looks during playback...
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